WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[Chrippa]

CJ, you are becoming a true Master in writing and explenation!

Thanks for all the info, it´s just great. Takes sometime to try everything out but eventually you find your own way of doing it.
The times you have it it´s great and the stroke is so powerful it takes some adjustment to fine-tune it. And my stroke was pretty strong before:smile:.
Now I´m trying to get the feel of your aiming, not really there yet but I get some glimpses now and then and it´s also very strong, like the rest I have to fit it in with my own way so it feels comfortable.

It´s great to try new things out, I learn something from everything -even if I might put some of it on the shelf.
I can stand high, low, pool stance, snooker stance etc etc and they all have their different strengths.

Thanks for all of your posts and taking the time to share all your knowledge!

Chrippa

I like to play "The Ghost" 15 Ball rotation where, after the break I take any one ball off the table. This leaves 12-14 balls on the table to run in rotation order. I can only beat this game playing the TOI method and have no chance any other way.

I use it on most of the shots, unless I'm slow rolling, staight in or changing the angle off a rail. The whole key to this is actually Mastering the shot you play with most of the time. It takes more than a few days to totally master a shot, and if you don't try to master one I can safely say you won't ever do it.

Mastering one type of shot that you can count on to "cinch" a key ball is very important. If you truly do this it will bring the rest of your game up because you will find a common denominator between the shot you've mastered and how you hit the "other shots".

When you hit a variety of shots you never truly master any one of them because you won't use them enough. This is common sense in other things, however "few" seems to connect it to pool. And I will tell you, from my experience those "few" will be extremely difficult to beat.

 

[Mikjary]

Mike you are definitely getting it... It's pretty hard to notice unless you have hit the shots with TOI and know what to expect out of the cueball... Once you start doing it you will start seeing it... It's back to what Danny D. always says.. "If he knew what he didn't know he wouldn't not know it..." I think you are starting to know it... Congrats!

Chris

Like anything, you have to try it to get an honest opinion of it. I try things and every once in a while get pleasantly surprised. Even after playing the game at a higher level, I never would've thought a simple technique like a TOI could have so many unseen nuances. It'll take a while to figure it out, but it's made the game enjoyable, again. Nothing more fun than getting out!

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Can you use the TOI without getting the cue ball floating away effect, he maybe inside but its not enough to be noticeable to the eye. I think cj plays that way and keeps the deflection to a very very minimum and only really deflects it when he needs that floating away position for his next shot. He can really regulate the amount of deflection on a given shot.. what do you think? He likes to use that slow drag shot or kill shot quite often and that is where that cue ball floating effect could be coming from?

I used to kill the cue ball with too much inside spin or center ball. Now I slightly cue to the inside and use speed to control the cue ball on stun or kill shots. There's much more control.

After some practice, gauging the deflection becomes second nature and very easy and natural to use. I was an outside spin guy for years. No more. The cue ball is floating and I like it that way.

Cueing a hair to the inside isn't really detectable on the cue ball. The only way to tell is by the cue ball reaction on each shot. I've played against top players that were doing this in the past. Some even cued across the cue ball and I couldn't figure out how they were killing the cue ball with outside. They weren't. :wink:

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

Who am i? I am the champ and also a legend! Later

You are "the champ" and also a legend?

Well, anyway, someone I trust vouched for you.

So...I guess you are not who I thought you were. I was thinking maybe Earl the Pearl.:smile:

I went to PM you but can't. Maybe you can PM me with a little more info.

Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

The TOI is the "key" that unlocks the most complicated run outs.

Like anything, you have to try it to get an honest opinion of it. I try things and every once in a while get pleasantly surprised. Even after playing the game at at higher level, I never would've thought a simple technique like a TOI could have so many unseen nuances. It'll take a while to figure it out, but it's made the game enjoyable, again. Nothing more fun than getting out!

Best,
Mike

The TOI is the "key" that unlocks the most complicated run outs. You, Mike, are getting these results and probably have a complete "arsenal" of shots that you haven't "discovered" yet.

You really do have to alter your way of seeing patterns before you mind opens up to all the possibilities using the TOI. I thought I was going to have time to do a video on the TOI, however, I have some matters to attend to so I can go to the Mosconi Cup.

I don't want to "short change" the TOI technique when I show it and that means the video demonstration will need to be at least 30 minutes. It will all make sense the those of you that still can't imagine cuing the ball a "Touch" Inside and having so much flexibility with the cue ball.

This system of playing will help you reach the next level provided you can hit the cue ball straight consistenly. You must develop a pre shot routine that gets your feet/shoulder/arm/wrist in the right position to deliver the cue straight before any of these advanced techniques will help your game.

 

[Mikjary]

The TOI is the "key" that unlocks the most complicated run outs. You, Mike, are getting these results and probably have a complete "arsenal" of shots that you haven't "discovered" yet.

You really do have to alter your way of seeing patterns before you mind opens up to all the possibilities using the TOI. I thought I was going to have time to do a video on the TOI, however, I have some matters to attend to so I can go to the Mosconi Cup.

I don't want to "short change" the TOI technique when I show it and that means the video demonstration will need to be at least 30 minutes. It will all make sense the those of you that still can't imagine cuing the ball a "Touch" Inside and having so much flexibility with the cue ball.

This system of playing will help you reach the next level provided you can hit the cue ball straight consistenly. You must develop a pre shot routine that gets your feet/shoulder/arm/wrist in the right position to deliver the cue straight before any of these advanced techniques will help your game.

Life has its priorities and in the pool world The Mosconi Cup is number ONE! Whenever you get a chance after celebrating a USA win is soon enough.

I've got plenty to do in the meanwhile, because you're right. I discover new shots every time I play with a TOI. It's a really entertaining challenge to figure out new possibilities and patterns on the table.

Good luck and good rolls!

Best,
Mike

 

[madmiller]

I have a small request if it's possible.
In this thread I read a lot about "floating" cue ball.
Is there an example of this "floating" cue ball anywhere on video? Maybe on CJ-Mizerak match?
I wanna see what you are talking about and what it looks like when cue ball "floats"

 

[West Point 1987]

I have a small request if it's possible.
In this thread I read a lot about "floating" cue ball.
Is there an example of this "floating" cue ball anywhere on video? Maybe on CJ-Mizerak match?
I wanna see what you are talking about and what it looks like when cue ball "floats"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeDEFlnguDY

1:50 and 2:35 are just two excellent, clear examples...there are others. Notice how firm the OB smacks into the pocket, then the CB just "creeps" into position. If you used side spin, the CB would take off.

 

[madmiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeDEFlnguDY

1:50 and 2:35 are just two excellent, clear examples...there are others. Notice how firm the OB smacks into the pocket, then the CB just "creeps" into position. If you used side spin, the CB would take off.

Thanks!!!
So I figure those two shots (at least) were made using TOI?

 

[West Point 1987]

Thanks!!!
So I figure those two shots (at least) were made using TOI?

Nearly the whole rack was TOI...

 

[ENGLISH!]

Toaday's TOI Session.

Hi everyone,

First I woke up & did not feel very well. Then I looked outside & saw an all day rain rolling in. I almost bailed. But I got it together & went to the hall anyway,

It did not start out well & got worse. Trying to hit softer for position failed. The CB just does not deflect/squirt enough (LD shafts). Went back to making sure I deflected & pocketing came back but postion is still out of the window.

The heavens opened up & dumped tons of water on the New Orleans area. Graduallly I lost it. Started to mis both ways & could not correctly predict the deflection. I beared down & it came back some but not consistently. My friend came in & we started to play, I tried to stay with it but had to let it go & went back to my game with an occasional TOI shot when I thought it might work better. The TOI can cinch certain shots very well. It was tough even shooting my way with english. I think it was the changing weather or maybe I was just off as I did not feel my best & was dragging a bit. I won every game but it was ugly.

In conclusion, the jury is still out. The TOI is still in my tool box but for now it's in one of the lower draws to be taken out for certain jobs (shots).

Regards to all,

 

[CJ Wiley]

You've seen it being done many times, however, you would not notice it unless.....

Thanks!!!
So I figure those two shots (at least) were made using TOI?

On slight cuts I use a slight Touch of Inside. As the angle increases I cue the ball slightly more inside. Most of the time it's just enough for me to notice, but no one else.

When I demonstrate a variety of shots using the TOI you'll recognize my cue ball reactions. You've seen it being done many times, however, you would not notice it unless you're aware of it. 'The Games is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

The TOI is a style, system and/or technique, not a specialty shot

In conclusion, the jury is still out. The TOI is still in my tool box but for now it's in one of the lower draws to be taken out for certain jobs (shots).

Regards to all,[/QUOTE]

The TOI is a style, system and/or technique of play, not a "tool" or specialty shot. I've said many times that either you commit to using it or don't use it at all. There's simply no in between and if you try to just "use it sometimes" your game will be all over the place.

Considering the time you have to practice I'd recommend you just try to play your own style as well as possible. The TOI takes at least 3 weeks, like Mike said, to just begin to see the potential. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[EagleMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeDEFlnguDY

1:50 and 2:35 are just two excellent, clear examples...there are others. Notice how firm the OB smacks into the pocket, then the CB just "creeps" into position. If you used side spin, the CB would take off.

I haven't had time to STUDY this humongous thread entirely as yet...but certainly will.

But the comment in bold above seems to me to be the KEY. Any appreciable amount of inside side spin that still exists when the CB contacts a rail will cause a noticable "jump" or "acceleration" off the rail.

Assuming little to no side spin which I assume is the case with the TOI technique, the CB will leave the cushion at ROUGHLY the same speed as it impacts it....no "jump" and therefore, the appearance of "floating" that has been mentioned.

(The "scientists" will know a ton more about cushion effeciency than I do but I THINK it is less than 100% so the rebound should be slightly slower than the contact speed assumimg zero spin....correct???)

EagleMan

 

[West Point 1987]

I haven't had time to STUDY this humongous thread entirely as yet...but certainly will.

But the comment in bold above seems to me to be the KEY. Any appreciable amount of inside side spin that still exists when the CB contacts a rail will cause a noticable "jump" or "acceleration" off the rail.

Assuming little to no side spin which I assume is the case with the TOI technique, the CB will leave the cushion at ROUGHLY the same speed as it impacts it....no "jump" and therefore, the appearance of "floating" that has been mentioned.

(The "scientists" will know a ton more about cushion effeciency than I do but I THINK it is less than 100% so the rebound should be slightly slower than the contact speed assumimg zero spin....correct???)

EagleMan

Exactly!

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm not sure anyone can "master" all the shots in pocket billiards

I haven't had time to STUDY this humongous thread entirely as yet...but certainly will.

But the comment in bold above seems to me to be the KEY. Any appreciable amount of inside side spin that still exists when the CB contacts a rail will cause a noticable "jump" or "acceleration" off the rail.

It is a "humongous thread," and it goes back to the "aiming threads". Here's an example of one from almost 2 months ago. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=283974&page=52

The one thing I've been waiting for someone to ask is "how do I develop the ability to do this the fastest?" .... because the fact of the matter is no one that doesn't have the ability to do this is going to be able to pick up on it......BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO DO IT EVERY TIME...this is about changing your perception of how to aim and perceive the pocket....you can't learn different perceptions by going back and forth between what you currently do and something that's totally new.....my perception of how to pocket balls is different than yours....and because of this I have been known as one of the best "shotmakers" in the history of the game (from using the TOI Technique)....I played in two Target Pool championships with most of the champions and won them both, so TOI also improves precision and postion accuracy as well....many players suspected that I do something "different" {TOI}, but all champions know how to hit different parts of the pocket WITHOUT changing their aim....how do you think they do it? With either spin or deflection.....if there's any "sidespin" it's irrelevant to the mental process and that's what's MOST IMPORTANT....I'm speaking to those of you reading this that have "eyes that can see"....this isn't about science, it's about perception of the human, subconscious mind....if you are TOO conscious about this or anything else done unconsciously you will be like the guy that "suddenly realizes he's on the tight rope" and YOU WILL FALL from understanding.....I know this is difficult to understand, so why try so hard....just go play pool for 2 STRAIGHT HOURS cueing the ball with inside EVERY TIME.....and still play shape on the next ball, but do it with speed and force, not spin......this will "open your eyes" and you will start to have a new perception too.....or listen to these guys that go "bah humbug" at anything new or out of their comprehension and stay where you are....I want to see you enjoy a better way to play, but if you don't want to go through the trouble, then there's nothing more I can do .... and I did try just remember, when someone that is effective explains what they do they can only try to explain the process of HOW THEY PERFORM WELL....when someone that is ineffective explains what they do they are explaining a theory (not a process) of how they "someday" would like to perform better.

TOI will raise any intermediate to advanced player's game if there's a 3 week level of commitment. No one said it would be easy to get to that last "layer" of knowledge. I think it would stand to reason that to make a commitment to "get better," we also must make a commitment to "do things differently." 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm not sure anyone can "master" all the shots in pocket billiards

I haven't had time to STUDY this humongous thread entirely as yet...but certainly will.

But the comment in bold above seems to me to be the KEY. Any appreciable amount of inside side spin that still exists when the CB contacts a rail will cause a noticable "jump" or "acceleration" off the rail.

Assuming little to no side spin which I assume is the case with the TOI technique, the CB will leave the cushion at ROUGHLY the same speed as it impacts it....no "jump" and therefore, the appearance of "floating" that has been mentioned.

(The "scientists" will know a ton more about cushion effeciency than I do but I THINK it is less than 100% so the rebound should be slightly slower than the contact speed assumimg zero spin....correct???)

EagleMan

The "floating effect" is a "side effect" of using the Touch of Inside technique. It does not have to contact a rail, as a matter of fact it's most noticeable when it moves a foot or two without any rail contact. {It will appear "dead," with no "after contact spin."}

When you do contact the rail the cue ball will move even slower than the impact speed and appear to be "heavy". This allows the player to hit the cue ball at a more consistent, slightly firmer "stroke speed". When you eliminate the "spin variences," and calculations you are left dealing with one type of shot that can be used for 80-90% of ALL your shots.

I'm not sure anyone can "master" all the shots in pocket billiards, however, I've seen several champions that have mastered at least one. It's like "pitching a coin," if you had your preference wouldn't you rather pitch same distance with the same "stroke" for maximimum consistency?

In pool, on the contrary, players choose to hit whatever shot seems to suit the occasion the best, usually making it the "easiest on them." If that's the way you feel comfortable playing that's fine, I'm just suggesting there's another way. A way that, in the long run, is more effective for winning.

This is the same idea, I'm just suggesting the TOI Technique because it also maximizes the "pocket zone," and the cue ball appears to be "on a string". And so it is. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

 

[Mikjary]

I watched some Efren video last night and picked up on a couple of TOI shots he uses. Instead of drawing back off of the long rail with outside and trying to avoid scratching in the side pocket, he uses a TOI and zig zags across the table with little power in the stroke. No chance of a scratch and he ends up in the middle of the table for position.

He really can use the technique well for soft draw shots, too. The cue ball floats in and out of traffic like it had a road map. I think learning the soft stroke with a TOI would be a key part of the game. I've got the power game going pretty well, but I've got to work some more on the softer strokes.

CJ's right about all or nothing. You can't learn a TOI without a 100% commitment. You have to see what you can do with it before you start spinning balls with outside and changing your mental process. Going back and forth will mess with your pool brain.

I always look first for the TOI alignment. If I need outside spin or center cue ball for position, I stop for a sec and look at the shot. It gives my brain the pause it needs to figure out my aiming line for outside. I already know how to use it, so it's easy. Get down and fire. You don't lose the abilty to use it, just the need to use it. It's not like quitting smoking or drinking. You can still do it once in a while and get your fix. :wink:

Hitting the cue ball in one spot only for most of my shots really helps with my alignment. I don't have to stop and think, one tip, half tip, and compensate for the spin. I just use speed control and a consistent cue ball deflection which has taken a few weeks to become grooved in. The main idea here for me is to always set up first with a TOI. That gives me the consistency to build on in my game.

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

The "no spin" doesn't necessarily mean "before contact,"

I watched some Efren video last night and picked up on a couple of TOI shots he uses. Instead of drawing back off of the long rail with outside and trying to avoid scratching in the side pocket, he uses a TOI and zig zags across the table with little power in the stroke. No chance of a scratch and he ends up in the middle of the table for position.

He really can use the technique well for soft draw shots, too. The cue ball floats in and out of traffic like it had a road map. I think learning the soft stroke with a TOI would be a key part of the game. I've got the power game going pretty well, but I've got to work some more on the softer strokes.

CJ's right about all or nothing. You can't learn a TOI without a 100% commitment. You have to see what you can do with it before you start spinning balls with outside and changing your mental process. Going back and forth will mess with your pool brain.

I always look first for the TOI alignment. If I need outside spin or center cue ball for position, I stop for a sec and look at the shot. It gives my brain the pause it needs to figure out my aiming line for outside. I already know how to use it, so it's easy. Get down and fire. You don't lose the abilty to use it, just the need to use it. It's not like quitting smoking or drinking. You can still do it once in a while and get your fix. :wink:

Hitting the cue ball in one spot only for most of my shots really helps with my alignment. I don't have to stop and think, one tip, half tip, and compensate for the spin. I just use speed control and a consistent cue ball deflection which has taken a few weeks to become grooved in. The main idea here for me is to always set up first with a TOI. That gives me the consistency to build on in my game.

Best,
Mike

Yes, the "zig zag" shot you are referring to was my "bread and butter" as well. I played Efren many times in tournaments and for 14 straight hours straight in a Filipino Pool room (Nardos) in Seattle.

I told the story (a few months ago in the aiming thread) of how he verified the technique to me by telling me his secret was "no spin". Most people would think that meant "center ball," but anyone that's used the TOI method will know within weeks how you generate "no spin," and it's not with center.

The "no spin" doesn't necessarily mean "before contact," it's also referring to "after contact". This is where you need the maximum control is at contact, first with your tip/cue ball, then after the cue ball contacts the object ball. If the cue ball reacts a different speed each time after contact you will soon be running in to control issues. The TOI Cue Ball seems "heavier," and much less likely to "get away from you."

 

[ENGLISH!]

In conclusion, the jury is still out. The TOI is still in my tool box but for now it's in one of the lower draws to be taken out for certain jobs (shots).

Regards to all,

The TOI is a style, system and/or technique of play, not a "tool" or specialty shot. I've said many times that either you commit to using it or don't use it at all. There's simply no in between and if you try to just "use it sometimes" your game will be all over the place.

Considering the time you have to practice I'd recommend you just try to play your own style as well as possible. The TOI takes at least 3 weeks, like Mike said, to just begin to see the potential. 'The Game is the Teacher'[/QUOTE]


CJ,

I see enough of the potential now. The TOI even reveals more every now & then. That is why I will not abandon it, but keep it in my mind to use it when & where I can confidently. I did that yesterday & it worked, even though I personally was having a bad, inconsistent day either due to health, weather, or both. That is my intention until I can devote more time to fully getting it under control, if I can. Hopefully when my table is operational I will more easily be able to devote the necessary time. I fully intend to get to the point where TOI becomes my playing stlye with my 'old style', english, being the specialty shot tool. Right now I am kind of torn between two lovers, as the song says, & feeling like a fool. However I know who the better woman is & can only hope that she'll have me. Unfortunately, I'm starting an individual money league tommorrow & I am not sure which one to dance with first.

I can't wait to see the video. As I'm sure you know, men are the more visually influenced of the species.:wink:

Thanks for everything, Best Regards, & Go U. S. A.