scoring defensive shots in apa

[RShellhouse]

I am amazed by some of the answers here...

Let me ask this....

object ball is in center of table....its a easy cut to the side pocket a much harder shot to the far corner....the side pocket shot does not give me position for the next ball the corner shot does...

I shoot and miss

By what I am seeing here most would mark this as a defensive shot...

I passed on a easier shot to shoot a harder shot because it was not smart to shoot the easier shot and could cost me the game...


to me...I would not have marked the original shot as a defensive and would consider the other team simply had sour grapes because they might lose the game because I didn't play stupid...the player attempted the shot...which is the basis of the rule...a intent to pocket the ball...period you don't get to choose which ball they attempt..


R

 

[Manoman2444]

If the intent was to make a ball, it is not a defensive shot!!!!

 

[Cornerman]

I am amazed by some of the answers here...

Let me ask this....

object ball is in center of table....its a easy cut to the side pocket a much harder shot to the far corner....the side pocket shot does not give me position for the next ball the corner shot does...

I shoot and miss

By what I am seeing here most would mark this as a defensive shot...



R

i think you're misreading what some are saying. Your example is not defensive. The shot in the OP was two way kick shot that had a clear intent that if he missed the shot it would result in a defensive shot.

Freddie <~~~ one man's take

 

[RShellhouse]

the way it was stated any shot other than removing the hanger opening the pocket for the opponent would have been considered a defensive shot yes my example did not have a opponents ball being blocked bye my choice in shots. The base pulling is a attempt to pocket a ball was made therefore it is a legal shot and not a defensive shot. VapA does not have a place for 2 way shots to be marked a2 way shot is by definition a offensive shot with a defensive result as a potential outcome it is not a defense in shot with a potential offense outcome

 

[lorider]

I am amazed by some of the answers here...

Let me ask this....

object ball is in center of table....its a easy cut to the side pocket a much harder shot to the far corner....the side pocket shot does not give me position for the next ball the corner shot does...

I shoot and miss

By what I am seeing here most would mark this as a defensive shot...

I passed on a easier shot to shoot a harder shot because it was not smart to shoot the easier shot and could cost me the game...


to me...I would not have marked the original shot as a defensive and would consider the other team simply had sour grapes because they might lose the game because I didn't play stupid...the player attempted the shot...which is the basis of the rule...a intent to pocket the ball...period you don't get to choose which ball they attempt..


R

this i agree with.

one thing i forgot to mention in my conversation . i asked that person... so you are saying if the player made the kick , it was offense, and if he missed it was defense ?

he said yea. wth ?

i think the shot selection is a matter of good pattern play. its crazy that if you were to elect to attempt a hard shot instead of an easy shot based on table layout and if you make the hard shot its offense and if you miss its defense

 

[nine_ball6970]

I myself, would never be bothered to track "defensive" shots. What of it? Why, in the lowest of leagues, must we keep track of specific types of shots? If we are intending to become professionals, we aren't using the APA as a springboard. It's just for fun!

I'm actually supposed to be joining an APA league soon. I've heard all about it. But I can't believe that it's taken seriously!

There are players just below pro speed who play in the APA. Lots of players take it seriously. I would bet money on Brian Parks against any amateur in the country. He has been playing APA for the last 8 years that I am aware of. I love how people say APA is for bangers when there are extremely strong players who play religiously. Why not just support people who love playing the same game you do? This division between opinions of leagues is a big problem with pool. Say you hate the rules or whatever, but don't bash someone's decision on playing pool.

 

[krupa]

this i agree with.

one thing i forgot to mention in my conversation . i asked that person... so you are saying if the player made the kick , it was offense, and if he missed it was defense ?

he said yea. wth ?

i think the shot selection is a matter of good pattern play. its crazy that if you were to elect to attempt a hard shot instead of an easy shot based on table layout and if you make the hard shot its offense and if you miss its defense

That dude's just making sh*t up as he goes along.

 

[Cornerman]

one thing i forgot to mention in my conversation . i asked that person... so you are saying if the player made the kick , it was offense, and if he missed it was defense ?

he said yea. wth ?

I also agree with this and don't think there is any conflict with the Equalizer system.

its crazy that if you were to elect to attempt a hard shot instead of an easy shot based on table layout and if you make the hard shot its offense and if you miss its defense

You seem to be using a wholly different shot scenario rather than your original.

Nevertheless, I personally think if the shot was defensive and ended up defensive, you mark it defensive.

If it was offensive but it ended up defensive, it was offensive.

If its a two way shot then unless you make the ball it's clearly defensive. That's part of the definition of a two way shot (its defensive if you miss).

Honestly it seems you guys are getting hung up on whether marking a safety is a bad thing or not. Marking a defensive shot is just part of the system. And by your own description, the shot was pretty defensive.

Freddie <~~~ mark it however you want, but the other guy wasn't crazy

 

[ChrisBanks]

Are you marked for a miss on a jump shot?

 

[krupa]

Are you marked for a miss on a jump shot?

You're not marking misses...

The point is to record when someone uses their inning to not try to pocket a ball. If you try to pocket a ball, you do not get a 'tick' in the Defense box on the scoresheet.

At this point, I think you're just stirring the pot.

 

[ChrisBanks]

You're not marking misses...

The point is to record when someone uses their inning to not try to pocket a ball. If you try to pocket a ball, you do not get a 'tick' in the Defense box on the scoresheet.

At this point, I think you're just stirring the pot.

I've never played in the league. Why do you keep track of defensive shots if there is no tracking of missed shots?

 

[krupa]

I've never played in the league. Why do you keep track of defensive shots if there is no tracking of missed shots?

The handicap calculation takes the number of innings into account. In other words, your handicap (for 9-ball anyway) is based on balls-per-inning. If you use an inning to play safe, your balls-per-inning is negatively affected. My understanding is that they subtract defensive shots (i.e., innings where you do not try to make a ball) from the total innings before calculating the handicap.

Sandbagging works when someone runs up the inning count and the score-keepers don't correctly mark defensive shots. This creates a lower balls-per-inning average.

 

[justadub]

The handicap calculation takes the number of innings into account. In other words, your handicap (for 9-ball anyway) is based on balls-per-inning. If you use an inning to play safe, your balls-per-inning is negatively affected. My understanding is that they subtract defensive shots (i.e., innings where you do not try to make a ball) from the total innings before calculating the handicap.

Sandbagging works when someone runs up the inning count and the score-keepers don't correctly mark defensive shots. This creates a lower balls-per-inning average.

This is correct.

As far as the jump shot is concerned, if you're jumping to try and make the ball, cool. If you're jumping without obviously trying to make a ball, it is a defensive shot. Same as any other.

BTW, just to set you off a little more, no jump cues in APA, you can only jump with your regular playing cue. (That opens up a whole nuther can of worms to argue about, I realize...)

 

[RunoutJJ]

This is the problem with the APA its called GRAY AREA!!! Loads of this crap up for debate in 8 ball


Straight from the APA website on 8 ball rules:



DEFENSIVE SHOTS: A defensive shot is a shot where the shooter deliberately misses so as to pass his turn at the table on to his opponent. A safety (see SAFETY in these Definitions) is a defensive shot because the shooter had no intention of making the ball. INTENTION is the key word. Sometimes intent can be a matter of opinion and judgment, but the scorekeeper's judgment must be accepted by the opposing player. Remember that defensive means deliberately missed. If a player has a nearly impossible shot and does the best he can, but still fails to even hit his ball, it does not fall into the category of defensive shots as defines here. As long as he was doing the best he could to hit and make one of his balls, then the shot is not marked as a defensive shot on the scoresheet

 

[KMRUNOUT]

more than once on here i have stated that accurate scorekeeping helps cut out sandbagging and helps determine a players true skill level.

i want to share a conversation i had with another captain a while back and want to ask you guys your opinion. might be opening a can of worms here but what the hell, it cant be no worse than some threads thats been on here lately.

i thought i was a stickler for making sure all safties were marked but this guy takes it to a whole new level.

he brought up the following scenario.

a player has 2 balls left on the table plus the 8. one ball is hanging in a pocket and he has a clear shot at it. the hanger is also blocking one of his opponents balls. the other ball is near the side rail being locked up by one of his opponents balls.
the player elects to kick at the blocked ball hoping it may go across table into the side pocket. he makes a good hit but fails to pocket the ball.

this captain said he would mark a defensive shot. i said why would you do that, he was obviously making an offensive shot regardless whether it fell or not. he may have thought if he pocketed the hanger he would not have a clear shot on his last ball and elected to break the other ball out knowing he could make the hanger last.

his reply; the player passed up a makeable ball choosing to leave it there blocking his opponents ball, that is defense. he also said it was obvious the kick shot would not go, the player opted to break that ball out believing he would have another turn at the table since one of his opponents ball was blocked.

i said an obvious defence is hiding the cueball preventing your opponent from having a clear shot, anything else is subjective without knowing the players true intentions.

i can somewhat understand his logic but in the end we agreed to disagree.

what do you guys think ?

It is very simple. If the player was trying to pocket a ball, it was not a defensive shot. If he was not trying to pocket a ball, it was. Now if the player was attempting to pocket a ball that was not pocketable, and the player just didn't recognize that, then it was NOT a defensive shot. The determining factor is if the player *intended* to *pocket* a ball. That's the ONLY factor in determining if it was a defensive shot in the APA.

KMRUNOUT

 

[robsnotes4u]

This is ridiculous. Doesn't a player need to call a ball and a pocket? If he does that it is an offensive shot, if not it is a defensive shot.

You have someone coring on the intent of the shooter, lawyers try to prove intent, not pool scores.

I am so happy there are not any leagues like this around here, I would quit if there were.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I myself, would never be bothered to track "defensive" shots. What of it? Why, in the lowest of leagues, must we keep track of specific types of shots? If we are intending to become professionals, we aren't using the APA as a springboard. It's just for fun!

I'm actually supposed to be joining an APA league soon. I've heard all about it. But I can't believe that it's taken seriously!

This is very much the wrong attitude for this or any league.


KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

What do you rule on a two way shot?

Or, what do you rule on a difficult shot where I am intentionally trying to over/undercut the ball so if I miss I am safe?

Again, it is very straightforward. Were you trying to pocket a ball or not? If yes, it is not a defensive shot. In a two way, you were trying to make the ball. Not a defensive. A difficult shot in which you played it to miss is a defensive shot. If you tried to make the ball but miss on the good side, not defensive.

KMRUNOUT

 

[CreeDo]

You don't need to call anything in APA 8 or 9 ball, sadly.

In leagues where you do call a ball, they consider kicks and banks 'not obvious'.

If a kick or a bank = "not obvious" shots, I'd think nobody would see a kick-bank as an honest attempt to make a ball. Even efren doesn't pocket those much.

I'd say it's defensive, even if you hit it hard enough to reach a pocket somewhere.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

What if the intent is EITHER to pocket the ball, or leave it safe?

It isn't. This is simply something that doesn't happen. They either aimed the ball in the hole, or they didn't. Chris, I can't tell if you are playing devil's advocate, or trolling.

KMRUNOUT