Exactly, it has players just starting, all the way up to players who are likely to run the table any time you give them the chance. I've seen all different levels of players in it. Even it the smaller town that I play APA in (about 10 teams in each of the 2 divisions), there are some seriously heavy hitters.
scoring defensive shots in apa
- Thread starter lorider
- Start date
Exactly, it has players just starting, all the way up to players who are likely to run the table any time you give them the chance. I've seen all different levels of players in it. Even it the smaller town that I play APA in (about 10 teams in each of the 2 divisions), there are some seriously heavy hitters.
The APA is a competitive league. The entire league structure is build around competition. You are sounding hypocritical. "No one is better or worse than the next"? So then why can't APA people play pool competitively like people can in any other league or pro event for that matter? I only have fun in APA if I try my best and play reasonably well. This is far more important to me than winning.
KMRUNOUT
Freddie,
This is not how defensive shots work in the APA. Two way shots are very misleading. Regardless of the *outcome* of the shot, the shooter either tried to shoot the ball in, or not. That's all there is to it.
KMRUNOUT
If one argued this way, they would be illogical (with respect to the APA scorekeeping rules.) If your primary goal is to play safe, you would not aim the ball in the hole and shoot it hard enough to get there. If you did those things, you tried to make the ball.
KMRUNOUT
Freddie,
Philosophically, you have a reasonable view here. It just isn't the APA rule. The outcome of the shot has nothing to do with whether the shot is a defensive shot or not. The *only* determining factor *according to the APA rules* is whether the shooter intended to pocket a ball. Their forecasting of the outcome is not a component at all. Hope this helps clear the situation up.
KMRUNOUT
There is. They call them innings. Every time the second shooter finishes his/her turn at the table, an inning is marked. This implies a missed ball or a scratch. You leave the table because you 1) ran out, 2) played a safe, or 3) missed. The APA accounts for each of these scenarios on the scoresheet.
KMRUNOUT
Here we have an example of someone forming an opinion about something when they are clearly filled with misinformation. The APA is not a called shot league. You only have to hit your own ball first. If something goes in, you keep shooting. Generally speaking, it is best to get the info first, and THEN decide if it's right for you.
KMRUNOUT
Why would you say it doesn't matter? I would say that it matters quite a bit to obtaining accurate handicaps in your area. Both scoresheets could be completely wrong and not match. If both scorekeepers are scoring defensive shots incorrectly...that doesn't matter?
KMRUNOUT
Which leads to the obvious question:
"If they don't match, which scoresheet's defensive shot-count is entered into the supercomputer to calculate the handicap?"
It's well known that defensive shots factor into the Equalizer. As a result, I've played against teams where their scoresheet had:
A) no defensive shots marked for either players;
B) defensive shots marked ONLY for opposing players;
C) defensive shots marked for both players, but clearly adding extra to opposing players.
By the way, this 'debate' ended in Post #9... the CORRECT ANSWER...
There is also a video on the APA website that clearly defines a defensive shot I was just pointing out that the rules state "they do not have to match" I dont know what the APA does behind the green curtain to determine handicaps. Maybe they input both numbers? Can a league operator answer that?
In our area they look for patterns of abuse. Teams that consistently have no defensive shots marked on their scoresheets typically have their opponents scoresheets entered. You can only enter one set of scores into the computer. If both teams have plenty of safes marked, I believe they split the difference.
KMRUNOUT
If he intended to make the shot it wasn't defensive. Two way shots are not considered D
This is the kind of thing that comes up when you have rules based on "intent" which is something only the shooter knows for sure. Ideally rules should be as cut and dried as possible. I guess if knows there's a 1% chance the ball will go in the hole, you could argue it's definitely a shot attempt, just a low percentage one.
But since rules based on "intent" are subjective no matter what, my subjective opinion is that a shot that if you pass up a 100% shot to play a 1% shot, you're effectively making a defensive play. So I'd still mark it.
Something else to consider... If you don't, you leave the player open to accusations of sandbagging. His handicap will go down if he keeps passing up hangers in favor of flyers. But if he's marked for defensive shots, that can't happen.
But since rules based on "intent" are subjective no matter what, my subjective opinion is that a shot that if you pass up a 100% shot to play a 1% shot, you're effectively making a defensive play. So I'd still mark it.
Something else to consider... If you don't, you leave the player open to accusations of sandbagging. His handicap will go down if he keeps passing up hangers in favor of flyers. But if he's marked for defensive shots, that can't happen.
ChrisBanks
Banned
There must be a better way of doing this!
Couple things:
1. Defensive shots do not need to match like innings do
2. The percent of making the shot is irrelevant. If you intend to make the ball it isn't D. Just because somebody shoots a 1% shot doesn't mean they are not intending to make it
3. Choosing to disregard how APA defines a D shot is one of the things that screws up the handicap system
I agree completely. Creedoo and many others way of scorekeeping skews the system just as bad as the sandbaggers. I've played against these teams for years that mark a defense after virtually every missed shot. It is not defense to play a smart pattern that gives you the best chance of running out. If you take all of the hangers first and then leave only the problem balls will lose more times than not. This wrongheaded thinking is no better than the sandbaggers.
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The sad part is they know the shot isn't defensive but since its subjective they hide behind that excuse and mark it as D.
I find it funny that somebody did a copy/paste of the actual APA rules and these guys still refuse to acknowledge what a defensive shot is.
Shark and Sooner, I guess this is where we disagree.
To me... knowing in the back of your head that a ball might find a hole (1 in a million times) and actually trying to make a shot, are two different things.
To you guys, I guess it's the same thing... the instant it occurs to you a ball might go in, it's no longer a safe.
How would you mark this situation?
I have a simple stop shot safety where I hit my last stripe, and leave the cue ball frozen to the 8. I hit the ball correctly, and it banks off the foot rail and happens to almost go into the side pocket from a steep angle. It occurred to me this might happen but I just said "ah, I'd have to be really unlucky to get that kind of roll". So I shot it anyway.
It sounds like under your strict definition, that wasn't a safe, it was a two way shot, because it occurred to me the ball might find a hole, even thought my MAIN intention was to play a safe.