Loose or Tight Grip

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The Renfro said:
Gotcha Fran... I was thinking of a different stroke for sure..

But I agree that if you want to use a lot of wrist you have to make room to be able to come thru aggressively.. If you start out tight on the grip, in the stroke you are talking about, you have restricted much of the wrists ability to add power as the range of motion is usually constricted.....

Chris :thumbup:
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Yep, but at the point of impact, the grip is tight, which I think is interesting. I know that many players do it but what I don't know is whether or not it enhances the shot. If it does, then maybe an answer to the op's question is loose to tight.

As far as holding the cue extremely loose all the way through a power stroke, of course I've tried it many times and the cue went flying out of my hands, even with a rubber grip, so I am amazed at how anyone can do it without losing the cue, unless they squeeze their bridge so tight that it restricts the movement of the shaft --- which sort of defeats the purpose.
 
Hi all,

I learned from watching & playing an older gentleman who had many times, but not always, done something very similiar to what Fran has said & I picked up on it & do it to a lesser degree. Spideyweb has talked about throwing the cue in another thread. What this gentleman seemed to do was throw the cue through the cue ball but then catch it. I have that same sensation on my normal power draw. That is why to a novice it looks like I am drawing back so far with not much follow through. I am not just catching it but snatching it back after it has been 'relesed' so it does not go flying out as Fran mentioned. I would call it a 'slip' stroke by it is not what most refer to as a slip stroke because the cue slips throught the hand but in the forward direction. It it sort of a release & catch rather than a throw of the cue. A novice might try to emulate drawing the ball with this type of hit & pull back type stroke but with a tight grip & would certainly not get the same results. So to answer the original question I would say that I believe you can get more draw & power with a loose 'grip' but just don't let the cue go flying all over the place. A loose grip also allows a loose wrist which allows the cue to continue its acceration a little longer than would a tight wrist. Just my humble opinion. (normal disclamer so as to prevent arguements)

Just my nickel's worth,
 
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I call it a "reverse slip", Rick, and it is a fun little technique but not practical for most shots. My personal preference is to forego the gripping and regripping during the stroke and choose a slightly stronger grip for power shots and a loose grip for typical shots. I want to emphasize "slightly".

Sean, sorry I wasn't clear earlier in the thread. I was just agreeing that there is that vastly different feel for one piece cues...
 
BilliardsAbout said:
I call it a "reverse slip", Rick, and it is a fun little technique but not practical for most shots. My personal preference is to forego the gripping and regripping during the stroke and choose a slightly stronger grip for power shots and a loose grip for typical shots. I want to emphasize "slightly".

Sean, sorry I wasn't clear earlier in the thread. I was just agreeing that there is that vastly different feel for one piece cues...
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Hi Matt,

As to the practicallity of that stroke, I would say that I use a mini version of it on almost every shot & especially on shots that require more speed of stroke.

I don't believe I agree with you unless I misunderstand you. I know you say that is your 'personal preference', but would you recommend that to another player.

I believe in the pool stroke, as in most other sports, tight muscles generally reduce speed & speed is the most important part of power or force. (F = M x A squared) One unit of speed increase affects force or power far more than a unit increase of mass. The speed component is squared, mutiplied times itself.

With all due respect, your premise seems backwards. Unless you are using a slightly firmer grip to rein in, or temper back, the power in a 'power shot'.

I'm a bit confused by your premise. Can you please elaborate?

Best Regards,
 
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I think the key, as with other sports, is to develop a neutral grip, which for most people involves some degree of looseness or a "relaxed" grip. At the moment of impact, our hand will reflexively tighten to prevent the cue from flying across the room or getting moved around in our hand. Unless we are literally throwing the cue forward, which some people seem to do, in which case a regrip has to occur at some point.

This is similar in tennis, where the forces involved and speeds in and out of the racquet are much more than in pool. You generally maintain a pretty loose grip throughout the backswing and up to impact in order to generate the most racquet head speed, which is tough to do with tight muscles. At impact you are not necessarily consciously grabbing the racquet, but your hand will tighten as necessary to absorb the inbound force of the ball, just for a split second, and then your generated speed and momentum will carry you through the shot and to a natrual complete follow through.

So with pool, and even golf, I think the same concept should apply in most cases to achieve an optimal and simple stroke. Relaxed grip, allowing the wrist to work naturally, and let the hand/body tighten reflexively when needed. Attempting to time a wrist snap or force other movements to occur in that small timeframe is asking for trouble for all but the most talented of players, and even then you better be hitting a lot of balls to time that motion properly.

Scott
 
scottjen26 said:
Attempting to time a wrist snap or force other movements to occur in that small timeframe is asking for trouble for all but the most talented of players, and even then you better be hitting a lot of balls to time that motion properly.

Scott
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Mr. Scott,

I agree with all but a bit of your entire post. I take a bit of exception with the statemant above. I would not discourage anyone from trying to execute anything by scaring them with statements of 'asking for trouble' or 'better be hitting a lot of balls to time that motion'.

I understand that that is your honest opinion. I might even agree with you for 'most' or many people. However, how does anyone know who is one of the 'most' or many people that might struggle or... are they one of those that can accomplish such things perhaps relatively easily?

On AZB, I seem to see too much discouragement & not enough encouragement to at least try. It's sort of like tellling Babe Ruth to bunt before we find out if he can hit Home Runs. I wonder how many is the information on AZB holding back vs helping. I'm fairly sure that the scales would be tipped on the helping side but by how much? How many are maybe being hurt. A doctor's greed is, 'do no harm'.

Maybe this comes from my many years of coaching other sports.

In any case, I'm sorry for spouting off on your post. My feelings are not directed toward you. I guess I am merely spouting off per my perception of a prevalence of negativity regarding anything but the most simplistic. I fear it may soon come to, 'don't try to draw the the ball, that's only for the most talented of athletes'.

Again my apologies & Best Regards,
 
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Tennesseejoe said:
Can you get more draw on the cue ball with a loose grip or a tight grip?
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Did you ever hear the term Fast and Loose. A tight grip on the cue will do nothing but deaden the action of the cue ball. St. Louis Louie Roberts always use to say that to get maximum draw on the cue ball you need to follow through and snap the wrist, try doing that with a tight grip on the cues butt.
 
FranCrimi said:
Yep, but at the point of impact, the grip is tight, which I think is interesting. I know that many players do it but what I don't know is whether or not it enhances the shot. If it does, then maybe an answer to the op's question is loose to tight.

As far as holding the cue extremely loose all the way through a power stroke, of course I've tried it many times and the cue went flying out of my hands, even with a rubber grip, so I am amazed at how anyone can do it without losing the cue, unless they squeeze their bridge so tight that it restricts the movement of the shaft --- which sort of defeats the purpose.
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Hey Fran,

Been busy with year end for a bunch of clients so I am extrrrraaaa slow...

I think it's more of a pinning motion than a regrip.... At least if it's the stroke I am thinking about.... Cue is cradled loosely and the wrist goes from neutral or preset to extended like you are casting a rod and reel....

The casting motion will pin the cue in the grip between the thumb and forefinger and the pinky or back of the palm pad..... You can pin it without having the fingers even wrapped around the cue.... It's kind of like driving a nail with a hammer holding the hammer as loosely as possible....

Hopefully this description is close or I can try again LOL...

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
Hey Fran,

Been busy with year end for a bunch of clients so I am extrrrraaaa slow...

I think it's more of a pinning motion than a regrip.... At least if it's the stroke I am thinking about.... Cue is cradled loosely and the wrist goes from neutral or preset to extended like you are casting a rod and reel....

The casting motion will pin the cue in the grip between the thumb and forefinger and the pinky or back of the palm pad..... You can pin it without having the fingers even wrapped around the cue.... It's kind of like driving a nail with a hammer holding the hammer as loosely as possible....

Hopefully this description is close or I can try again LOL...

Chris
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I'm clear on what the grip is, Chris --- No offense meant, but I'm not really looking for an interpretation, but no, there's a grab at the end or the cue will go flying out of the player's hand at that speed. I've done it many times, myself.
 
FranCrimi said:
I'm clear on what the grip is, Chris --- No offense meant, but I'm not really looking for an interpretation, but no, there's a grab at the end or the cue will go flying out of the player's hand at that speed. I've done it many times, myself.
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No offense taken was just trying to get an idea of the stroke in question so the interpretation was more of trying to match up the stroke you are referring to to the strokes I own or have seen... I guess this may be one I don't own and have not seen...

Any chance that you know of a video segment because I am still seeing it as a reverse slip in my head and you have nixed that one already?

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
No offense taken was just trying to get an idea of the stroke in question so the interpretation was more of trying to match up the stroke you are referring to to the strokes I own or have seen... I guess this may be one I don't own and have not seen...

Any chance that you know of a video segment because I am still seeing it as a reverse slip in my head and you have nixed that one already?

Chris
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I've seen Shane VB break with that grip on several occasions and others that I'll have to think about who they were. Maybe there's something on video of Shane. Don't know. If you're ever in NYC, I'll be happy to demonstrate it.

Also... Alan Hopkins, Danny Barouty, Buddy Hall, The Miz, Mosconi, to name a few more.
 
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Rick...Here's a "nickle's worth" of fact! The amount of followthrough has no relationship with how much draw somebody gets...whether they are a novice or a pro. It is only related to how low you strike the CB, and how much speed you swing the cue with.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

ENGLISH! said:
That is why to a novice it looks like I am drawing back so far with not much follow through.

Just my nickel's worth,
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Scott Lee said:
Rick...Here's a "nickle's worth" of fact! The amount of followthrough has no relationship with how much draw somebody gets...whether they are a novice or a pro. It is only related to how low you strike the CB, and how much speed you swing the cue with.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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Amen Scott!

The word "follow-through" is nothing but a mental help to explain someone about the stroke itself- It s about to explain someone that he has to deliver his stroke *straight through the ball*-and this while hitting the cueball also exactly at the point he was *aiming for*.

Well- you usually would not have to use the word *follow-through*, because you hit the cueball anyway just about 1/999 of a second. So it s just where you hit the cueball, and how much speed you have while hitting the cueball. But if you would start to talk just about phsysics, or *throwing* numbers at a new player/student.....what would happen?

For some it may be kind of a mantra by using the term "follow through" and it helped for sure many new players to make what is important: And this is to ACCELERATE with a consistant speed *through the cueball*. This sounds easier than telling a student "you have to hit the cueball with xxx mp/h" hm?

But what Scott said, is all you need to know (usually). But be sure that expirienced instructors, or people who often practice with students have usually several ways to *bring the necessary theoretical stuff* nearer to understand what is important.
 
........ The regrip is a pinning based on the wrist pronating... One would be conscious the other is physiological.... Would expound but this thread has been rendered useless... I can serve up slow mo shots after Derby if anyone is still confused.... pronation and squeezing looks very similar.... back to the regular scheduled program of internet %^&*& measuring......
 
The Renfro said:
........ The regrip is a pinning based on the wrist pronating... One would be conscious the other is physiological.... Would expound but this thread has been rendered useless... I can serve up slow mo shots after Derby if anyone is still confused.... pronation and squeezing looks very similar.... back to the regular scheduled program of internet %^&*& measuring......
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Please carry on with your comments. There are some of us here still reading and interested in this thread. Some gems here and worth getting into a little deeper.

Best,
Mike
 
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Thanks Ingo! Just another reason why SPF instructors use the term "finish" instead of 'followthrough'. Finish your stroke and you will always have 'followthrough'. How much doesn't matter, as long as you finish your stroke according to your natural range of motion.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ratta said:
Amen Scott!

The word "follow-through" is nothing but a mental help to explain someone about the stroke itself- It s about to explain someone that he has to deliver his stroke *straight through the ball*-and this while hitting the cueball also exactly at the point he was *aiming for*.

Well- you usually would not have to use the word *follow-through*, because you hit the cueball anyway just about 1/999 of a second. So it s just where you hit the cueball, and how much speed you have while hitting the cueball. But if you would start to talk just about phsysics, or *throwing* numbers at a new player/student.....what would happen?

For some it may be kind of a mantra by using the term "follow through" and it helped for sure many new players to make what is important: And this is to ACCELERATE with a consistant speed *through the cueball*. This sounds easier than telling a student "you have to hit the cueball with xxx mp/h" hm?

But what Scott said, is all you need to know (usually). But be sure that expirienced instructors, or people who often practice with students have usually several ways to *bring the necessary theoretical stuff* nearer to understand what is important.
Click to expand...
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think it mostly comes down to how much stick speed (with the required accuracy) you can develop. I think the tension of a tight grip reduces the maximum you can get. I also think that's why it's important to have a wrap that helps your grip hand not to slip with a relatively loose grip.
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What a great answer! It's not more just what you wrote.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Hi Matt,

As to the practicallity of that stroke, I would say that I use a mini version of it on almost every shot & especially on shots that require more speed of stroke.

I don't believe I agree with you unless I misunderstand you. I know you say that is your 'personal preference', but would you recommend that to another player.

I believe in the pool stroke, as in most other sports, tight muscles generally reduce speed & speed is the most important part of power or force. (F = M x A squared) One unit of speed increase affects force or power far more than a unit increase of mass. The speed component is squared, mutiplied times itself.

With all due respect, your premise seems backwards. Unless you are using a slightly firmer grip to rein in, or temper back, the power in a 'power shot'.

I'm a bit confused by your premise. Can you please elaborate?

Best Regards,
Click to expand...

On many shots, I use a minimal strength grip--so light, the cue would clatter onto the table if I loosened further. For some types of power strokes--e.g., drawing a far distance off an object ball far away from the cue ball--I tighten my grip somewhat for control, say 1.5 to 2 on a scale of 1 to 10 so the cue doesn't fly from my hand.

I understand that the multiplying effect of speed and mass allows a player using a light cue and a lot of acceleration to generate force easily. And I preach using a light grip to avoid interference with momentum as you suggest. But it's a table foul to hit balls with your cue stick so on power strokes I need to tighten a bit for control.

Again, a lot of players would be surprised at how lightly I grip the cue stick. They would need to loosen their regular grip to get close to the "tight" grip I use for control on some power strokes.
 
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