scoring defensive shots in apa

[Joqpub4]

Interesting video

In our APA league a few of us have been having discussions about this, and I had some free time so I took the opportunity to watch the video...

I had a much clearer understanding before the video.

I get it, it's about intent... AND the judgement of the scorekeepers.

But I gotta say, an easy shot missed by a '5, 6 or 7' should be marked as a defensive shot because they must have been trying to miss is a bit extreme. This session we have a 7 on our team, now I've been on teams with him for the last 5 years... I've never seen him have a session like this one. He is just off, period. In every league and tournament we play in. Now he's a 7 and his reputation in the league is he's a legit 7... but not this session (honestly in 2 leagues and practice nights)... but by the scoring , if he misses an 'easy' shot he's supposed to be marked for defense.

That's one element that to me is not correct. Yes, I understand the score keeper is judging intent and they can't read the opponent's mind, but what about people just having a bad day/session, you need new eyeglasses, etc...

Great (and timely for me) thread. I have a better understanding of how things are supposed to be marked, good.

However, if there is one negative... it strikes me that this system is trying to drive up handicaps so that better teams are forced to split up (and find new lower level shooters) which brings more $$$$ into APA. Some of the fun is shooting pool, more fun is shooting with your friends.. .we're trashing our team after this session, because honestly... we can't make the numbers, period... Most of our better shooters are moving to a local TAP (I think) league (the call your shot makes a difference as well)... but for me, I've gotten my wife to come out so I'll be hanging out in APA for a while <GRIN>

 

[justadub]

It usually happens during the last rack when the scorekeeper gets distracted or maybe marks balls above or below the line he's supposed to. (I've done that, myself.) If I see the two scorekeepers huddling over the sheets, I wait until they give me the OK before starting the next rack.




Your scoresheet must be a mess by the end of the night.

Depends on how much I've had to drink...:grin:

Nah, with a decent pencil, its not too bad. The first couple of sessions that we played 9-ball, it was worse, but i've refined it enough. It's certainly worth it, to me.

(I had in mind to design a scoring sheet aid, with all 10 balls listed in a per game format, to make it easier to track this stuff, but my graphic design skills are poor, and my procrastination skills are very good.)

 

[scratchs]

joqpub4

Yes, APA is a business.They provide a oppertunity through pool leagues
for many to get together an compete, while having some fun.
The handicap system is to help even the field..as we improve
in knowledge an exacution, our skill levels raise..nothing lasts
for..forever. This is why score keeping correctly is so important.
This thread is about intent..an what I'm reading is..there seems
to be a lack of communication,or perception checks between
score keeper an shooter..just ask..was that a D..then have faith
with in what the shooter replys..I realize that over time not every
one is honest..thats their problem..an teams problem which will
get worked out on its own,at least thats been my experiance..
I think this thread has been great..an I hope it has helped you.
good shooting in tap..I've never played..but have many friend that
did while the league was in town.
happy holidays to and yours..may you find peace an happiness.

 

[Maniac]

But I gotta say, an easy shot missed by a '5, 6 or 7' should be marked as a defensive shot because they must have been trying to miss is a bit extreme. This session we have a 7 on our team, now I've been on teams with him for the last 5 years... I've never seen him have a session like this one. He is just off, period. In every league and tournament we play in. Now he's a 7 and his reputation in the league is he's a legit 7... but not this session (honestly in 2 leagues and practice nights)... but by the scoring , if he misses an 'easy' shot he's supposed to be marked for defense.

I've seen several professional poolplayers miss shots with ball-in-hand over the years of watching them on streams, live tournaments, etc. (even saw Efren miss a bih shot), not counting the many, many times I've seen one absolutely dog an easy ball. It happens. Just curious to know if someone was scoring for THEM APA-style, would they have marked THEIR misses down as defense??? I doubt it. And why would it be okay for a pro to dog a shot, but not an APA SL7, 8, or 9?

How can you tell which shots are just plain missed and which ones are missed on purpose? Answer is, you cannot.

This is where the gray area really rears its ugly head.

You simply cannot mark every missed easy shot by a high skill-level player as defense and be scorekeeping fairly.

It's a tough situation to be sure. As I said in an earlier post, you just do the best you can. Nobody's life is depending on it, so don't lose sleep over it :thumbup:!!!

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

This thread is about intent..an what I'm reading is..there seems
to be a lack of communication,or perception checks between
score keeper an shooter..just ask..was that a D..then have faith
with in what the shooter replys...

This is what I do if I honestly cannot tell what the intention was.

Maniac

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I've seen several professional poolplayers miss shots with ball-in-hand over the years of watching them on streams, live tournaments, etc. (even saw Efren miss a bih shot), not counting the many, many times I've seen one absolutely dog an easy ball. It happens. Just curious to know if someone was scoring for THEM APA-style, would they have marked THEIR misses down as defense??? I doubt it. And why would it be okay for a pro to dog a shot, but not an APA SL7, 8, or 9?

How can you tell which shots are just plain missed and which ones are missed on purpose? Answer is, you cannot.

This is where the gray area really rears its ugly head.

You simply cannot mark every missed easy shot by a high skill-level player as defense and be scorekeeping fairly.

It's a tough situation to be sure. As I said in an earlier post, you just do the best you can. Nobody's life is depending on it, so don't lose sleep over it :thumbup:!!!

Maniac

Where does it say if a SL7 misses a shot that its marked as D? What scorekeeper would ever mark that a D? It is usually obvious when the player wants to take the pocket by missing the shot.

 

[Maniac]

Where does it say if a SL7 misses a shot that its marked as D? What scorekeeper would ever mark that a D? It is usually obvious when the player wants to take the pocket by missing the shot.

TNS, it doesn't "say" it anywhere, and in 9-ball you do not "take" a pocket, but it is common practice in some areas when a team puts up a very low skill-level player and the other team counters with a very high skill-level player, that the higher skill level player may be wanting to "run up" his innings as to either move down a skill level or not move up one. Many times I've heard people say "I'm gonna mark every shot he misses as defense" when this scenario happens. They assume that any makeable shot that was missed was missed intentionally. Heck, I think there was a post or two in this thread concerning this very subject.

I can tell you that I have seen this firsthand on more than one occaison. The worst case I ever saw was when I captained a 9-ball team and threw up a SL1 and the other team captain then threw up his SL8. Do you think it was coincidence or the fault of a bad shooting night that this SL8 kept missing makeable shots, but in a way that my SL1 still had no decent shot afterwards? And.......too many times in the match for our liking. Do you not see how a highly skilled player could miss a shot on purpose and still not leave the opponent a makeable shot, especially in 9-ball? This is how some higher skill-level players "manage" their handicaps. As a scorekeeper, you have to make a decision as to what was missed on accident or on purpose. You have to make an assumption that some of these shots were missed intentionally and mark them as defense, or eventually this high skill-level player is gonna move down a level undeservedly.

Maniac

 

[justadub]

Wow, we must be a bunch of simpletons up here in the woods.... I cannot imagine seeing that happen here, Maniac. Not that we're all saints or anything, I just cannot imagine it happening.

We all know each other reasonably well. It would be very obvious.

People just don't have enough to do if they have to screw with a 1 like that. That would piss me off. I'm so glad we don't have to deal with that crap. Maybe our teams might not make it Vegas from our division, but we don't have that foolishness going on.

 

[Joqpub4]

honest misses??

"Where does it say if a SL7 misses a shot that its marked as D? What scorekeeper would ever mark that a D? It is usually obvious when the player wants to take the pocket by missing the shot."

Watch the APA video... I felt much more sure of my thinking before that <GRIN>:thumbup2:

 

[Maniac]

Wow, we must be a bunch of simpletons up here in the woods.... I cannot imagine seeing that happen here, Maniac. Not that we're all saints or anything, I just cannot imagine it happening.

We all know each other reasonably well. It would be very obvious.

People just don't have enough to do if they have to screw with a 1 like that. That would piss me off. I'm so glad we don't have to deal with that crap. Maybe our teams might not make it Vegas from our division, but we don't have that foolishness going on.

dub, you should feel both happy and blessed that you don't have to put up with this kind of crap. Since I have moved league areas over to Tarrant Co. APA, this type of B.S. hasn't been an issue, much to the credit of the Tarrant Co. APA League Operators.

Maniac