scoring defensive shots in apa
- Thread starter lorider
- Start date
It *should not* be marked as a safe. If you tried to pocket the ball, the other possible outcome becomes irrelevant. The answer would be contained in the definition of a two way shot, which might look something like, "an attempt to pocket a ball in which the cueball will be left in a safe place in the event of a miss".
KMRUNOUT
Hey CreeDo...ok point taken. Glad we could clear that up. I will substitute the phrase "violate the rules" for "cheating" when I am discussing a topic like this in the future. Although "violate" has some connotations of its own...;-) Ok fine...*break* the rules. You breaker! There I said it!
KMRUNOUT
so true..I've met many good people through leagues over the years.
even though I'm no longer playing in leauge,I meet up with a
few of the guys an play..I miss league, I'm sure I'll return
at some point,league does offer tourneys through out the
year that I like to play in..in the 10 years or so I've played,I
can only think of a few times where there ever was a score
keeping issue, other then a lost ball in nine ball..but that
usually is the main one..which happens all the time..lol.
and if its me thats missing a ball..I just write down what they
have..over all leagues are good.
I agree that the ultimate marking of a defensive shot is up to the interpretation of the scorekeeper...However the scorekeepers should still be basing their decision on a *clear* understanding of the very simple and straightforward principle of the rule: If the shooter did not intend to pocket a ball, it is a defensive shot. Now all the scorekeeper has to "decide" is if the shooter intended to pocket a ball, not if they (the scorekeeper) thinks a particular shot attempt *ought* to be *considered* a defensive shot. This should be DRILLED into the heads of all APA players.
KMRUNOUT
Banks
Banned
Anything can be manipulated. Just because I go for "a shot" that only has a 1% chance of going, but a 99.9% chance of leaving you hooked, does not make it an offensive shot. That's handicap "management" to say, "Yeah, I went for 20 shots that rack with no defenses."
Agreed 100%, but as I said in an earlier post, the rules are written as though everyone abides by them and follows the spirit of fair play. If you are keeping score, be honest, mark down what you honestly feel is a defensive shot and keep in mind that every now and then someone will miss and get a safe roll, or may miscue, or may just not be thinking and hit a ball bad. It would be great if all the players followed the rules and interpreted them the same way, but it just don't happen
what he said !:wink: kudos to everyone.
i hope everyone does not think i was nit picking about a rule when i started this thread. i am serious about accurate scorekeeping but not to the point where i think someone should be marked with an un warranted defense.
when i keep score i mark what i know is a defense, not what i think might be a defense. my biggest pet peeve is scorekeepers who are not paying attention to the game, or as some have said on here may not even know what a defensive shot is.
Dude what the HECK IS THE POINT YOUR TRYING TO MAKE!!! Of all the post in here you pick mine to have a problem with. I have no idea what you trying to imply by pointing me out.
Black Cat
One night when our matches were over and we were comparing scoresheets, mine had 27 defensive shots marked in the five matches played and their scoresheet had none. Seriously.
Maniac
I like how in 9-ball matches, the two scorekeepers check their numbers after each rack and they STILL somehow miss a couple balls at the end.
scorekeeping like that is what leads people to complain about sandbaggers in apa.
i am all for havong a fun night out , hanging with friends and making new ones but sombody has got to pay attention when scoring. i would go ape shit if my scorekeepers were off like that.:grin:
Wow, that would drive me bat$hit.
We generally don't let the next rack start until we agree on the score. I mean, c'mon, it's a multiple of 10, your score, his score + dead balls....
I even write down the ball made over the hash mark, just to be sure, in case of confusion. Takes an extra second or two, but it's been worth it the times I need it. (The other score keeper doesn't agree with my score, and I reply, "my guy made the 2,3,5,7&9...." they can't generally argue about it when you have the facts right there
)Twelve pages is great, hope I don't mess it up by jumping in...
I've been reading this discussion as it occurs and have found it quite interesting. APA defines a defensive shot the way they do in order to keep it as simple as possible (and as objective as possible so the scores don't vary tremendously depending on who keeps score). Only one question needs to be asked - was the shooter trying to legally pocket one of his/her balls? That's about as simple as you can make it, yet there's still plenty of subjectivity involved.
The problem with the APA definition is that it forces every shot into one of two mutually-exclusive groups - offense or defense. In reality, many shots have both offensive and defensive aspects to them, and it's hard to classify them as one or the other if there's no hard line. APA draws the hard line just to eliminate most of the guesswork.
If you want to remove the constraints of simplicity, you could define two characteristics of a shot as follows:
Offensive - the shooter is attempting to legally pocket a ball and continue his turn at the table
Defensive - the shooter is attempting to increase his chances of winning the game on a subsequent turn
Then you could define four categories of shots as follows:
Offensive - The shot has only offensive characteristics
Defensive - The shot has only defensive characteristics
Conservative - The shot has both offensive and defensive characteristics
Non-performance - The shot has neither offensive nor defensive characteristics
So the OP's example would be classified as a Conservative shot. The shooter was trying to continue his turn, but at the same time trying to give himself a better chance to win should he miss. Two-way shots would also clearly be conservative.
Who shoots non-performance shots? Players who aren't trying to win the game.
Every shot you can imagine falls into exactly one of these four categories, and I believe if you could accurately record them on a score sheet you would have a lot more information about the match than what exists today, which implies that you could improve the handicap system.
Here's my question for everyone. Do you think APA could do something like this, or would it make the scoring too complex?
I've been reading this discussion as it occurs and have found it quite interesting. APA defines a defensive shot the way they do in order to keep it as simple as possible (and as objective as possible so the scores don't vary tremendously depending on who keeps score). Only one question needs to be asked - was the shooter trying to legally pocket one of his/her balls? That's about as simple as you can make it, yet there's still plenty of subjectivity involved.
The problem with the APA definition is that it forces every shot into one of two mutually-exclusive groups - offense or defense. In reality, many shots have both offensive and defensive aspects to them, and it's hard to classify them as one or the other if there's no hard line. APA draws the hard line just to eliminate most of the guesswork.
If you want to remove the constraints of simplicity, you could define two characteristics of a shot as follows:
Offensive - the shooter is attempting to legally pocket a ball and continue his turn at the table
Defensive - the shooter is attempting to increase his chances of winning the game on a subsequent turn
Then you could define four categories of shots as follows:
Offensive - The shot has only offensive characteristics
Defensive - The shot has only defensive characteristics
Conservative - The shot has both offensive and defensive characteristics
Non-performance - The shot has neither offensive nor defensive characteristics
So the OP's example would be classified as a Conservative shot. The shooter was trying to continue his turn, but at the same time trying to give himself a better chance to win should he miss. Two-way shots would also clearly be conservative.
Who shoots non-performance shots? Players who aren't trying to win the game.
Every shot you can imagine falls into exactly one of these four categories, and I believe if you could accurately record them on a score sheet you would have a lot more information about the match than what exists today, which implies that you could improve the handicap system.
Here's my question for everyone. Do you think APA could do something like this, or would it make the scoring too complex?
I feel your pain. I had the same thing happen to me during a National Single Qualifer for APA. My opponents friend, who kept score marked me down for nearly 30 safes during a race to 5 8-ball set. My opponent was not marked for any.
I asked him if he was watching the right match.
I asked him if he was watching the right match.
ChrisBanks
Banned
Should the shooter withhold from shooting until it is decided one way or the other what the shot will be categorized as?
It usually happens during the last rack when the scorekeeper gets distracted or maybe marks balls above or below the line he's supposed to. (I've done that, myself.) If I see the two scorekeepers huddling over the sheets, I wait until they give me the OK before starting the next rack.
I even write down the ball made over the hash mark, just to be sure, in case of confusion. Takes an extra second or two, but it's been worth it the times I need it. (The other score keeper doesn't agree with my score, and I reply, "my guy made the 2,3,5,7&9...." they can't generally argue about it when you have the facts right there
Your scoresheet must be a mess by the end of the night.