So... you want to sandbag and you want the Internet to know...
scoring defensive shots in apa
- Thread starter lorider
- Start date
So... you want to sandbag and you want the Internet to know...
ChrisBanks
Banned
I thought a two-way shot is attempting to leave it badly but you might also make it?
That's the point - if he says he tried to make the shot but it's a shot he wouldn't ordinarily take, is it a "real" shot or is he just calling it in case he makes it because there's a two-way safety available (as ChrisBanks says)? In other words, would he have tried the shot without the safety? Judging that is the gray area.
I think two-ways are a creative and skillfull part of pool and should be counted as normal shots, but I don't know how APA treats them.
pj
chgo
It can be either, depending on the likelihood of making the shot. I'm more likely to look for a two-way shot if the first shot is low percentage, but even if I have a 100% shot I'll still play an easy two-way if it's available, on the off chance I dog the shot.
pj
chgo
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The rule doesn't address taking the easiest shot on the table, or the one most likely to go in, or the best shot so far as potential run-out is concerned.
Did the shooter try to make the ball? Or did he not try to make the ball? Everything else is speculation. Actually, the whole thing is speculation.
As I said before, the shots where its difficult to tell are few and far between, in my experience, and not getting that one shot scored properly isn't going to make a big difference anyway. If you get the bulk of the defensive shots right, the system will function well enough.
ChrisBanks
Banned
I think all this scoring takes away from the fun of the game. Just mark down wins and losses and be done with it!
So if he "tries" to make a 3-rail kick to a 3-ball combo that's good enough? How do you tell when he's just calling anything to avoid the safety call?
Yes, unless the shot is clearly one he would have taken with or without the safety.
This is probably true, but this kind of extraneous issue is one of the reasons I'll never play in a league.
pj
chgo
P.S. In case you can't tell, I'm not trying to argue with you, just exploring the question.
I get it, Patrick.
And to be fair, this thread has exhausted far more thought on the subject than I've seen personally in over 3 years of APA. It really isn't as big a deal as this thread makes it out to be. At least in my experience out here in the woods.
I play two-way shots all the time. (Or as often as they present themselves, I suppose.) Meaning that I'm trying to make the ball I'm shooting at, but if I miss I leave my opponent a tougher shot. It really isn't complicated. i want to stay at the table and keep shooting, if possible. But if a different shot leaves my opponent in a better position, I'm not going to take it.
The three-rail flyers are examples of people trying to exploit the system, and I'll leave it at that. Suffice to say I don't see that happening, and if it looked bad, I'd mark it appropriately. Since i don't see that stuff happening, I don't concern myself with the theoretical possibilities...I have a difficlut enough time taking care of what i can control.
Off-topic, but I hate to play combos in rotation games because you can't play a two-way.
pj
chgo
ChrisBanks
Banned
I thought I am intending to play safe? In other words, I am intending to leave the cueball safe, I don't care if I make the shot or not.
NAPA scores like that: wins, losses, break-and-runs, and on-the-snaps.
APA scoring really isn't an onerous as this thread makes it out to be.
ChrisBanks
Banned
I've never heard of NAPA. Are they outside of the US?
True dat! :thumbup:
ChrisBanks
Banned
Sometimes I get the feeling that it would be better to just meet at the pool room and have a tournament, instead of going through the trouble of forming leagues.
Do you play in a league, or have you yet?
I ask this because all of this forum discussion is far from my league experience. It isn't nearly as convoluted as this (or any other) thread makes it seem.
That's not to say that drama doesn't occur in leagues anywhere, but stuff happens, regardless of being a league, or a tournament, or gambling.
You should go see what happens at league before passing judgement on it, especially if your judgement is based on a thread on a discussion board.
Just wanted to add a quick public note to KM - I appreciate your reply, and I can see you meant no harm. I took some offense because I define cheating differently... basically I don't use the word unless there's intent to swindle someone. No such thing as 'accidentally cheated'. You can accidentally break the rules though.
I guess it's just semantics, but basically 'cheated' is a pretty loaded word and should be avoided unless you're trying to imply dishonesty. It's not the right word to describe an honest mistake.
In other news, it's league night tonight and pray this situation doesn't come up.
I guess it's just semantics, but basically 'cheated' is a pretty loaded word and should be avoided unless you're trying to imply dishonesty. It's not the right word to describe an honest mistake.
In other news, it's league night tonight and pray this situation doesn't come up.
Let me ask a question, if you were playing call pocket rules (not APA) and play a two way would you call the pocket? If the answer is yes than you have intent. If the answer is no than you aren't playing a two way. You are playing a straight defensive shot.
While there is a definition of a "Defensive" or "non-Performance" shot or what ever you want to call it, it's really in the eye of the scorekeeper and what their interpretation is. If I keep score, you can't make me mark down or remove a safety shot and to me it's hardly worth arguing about. Most S/L's will even out to where they really should be. To sandbag properly you'd really need to know the ins and outs of the system and if you could see that, most APA players would realize that tanking enough to actually keep your S/L low is doing more harm than good for your team. Not because it's unsportsmanlike and evil and you'll go to hell or anything like that, but because you'll have to lose so often to keep your win percentage down that it pretty much won't be worth it to play you in a match at all. So you play bad on league night and good on tournament weekend or good in the money league, your rep will suffer and you'll likely be moved right along anyways. Look at this realistically, most league players really don't know how to lay down the right way, tanking is good for the hustler or road player trying to set someone up for a big score, then you move on to the next town or pool hall where they don't know you, but in a league you tank to win what, maybe 2 or 3 matches before you start to move up, and those are likely meaningless matches anyway. I find that most league players have way to much pride to tank enough for it to be effective. You wanna learn how to lay down and have it work? learn the system and not what you think it is, or what you've heard it is, get your hands on the software and the book then learn to hack. Other than that most sandbaggers aren't much good to anyone.