Here's the scenario. 9 Ball playoffs. Player shoots the six ball, a legal hit on the 6 ball occurs, the cue ball caroms off the 6 hits the 9 ball and pockets the 9. The shooter in his excitement doesn't move his cue and the 6 ball hits the rail and comes back and hits the cue stick. Is this a foul or not, and if/where is this covered in the apa rules. How is it handled if/if not a foul.
APA Rule Question
- Thread starter Total_Chaos13
- Start date
if nothing touchs the CB then it is NOT!!! a foul the game is over when the 9b goes in an cb stops
Here's my waffling answer:
It doesn't seem to be explicitly called a foul in APA.
It is often explicitly called a foul in other rule sets, even with "cue ball fouls only," but I wouldn't call it.
Don't be surprised if you're in a WPA or BCA tourney and it gets called.
Freddie <~~~ kindler and gentler
No it is not a foul. The only fouls in the APA are illegal hits( when the next numbered ball is not hit first) and moving the cue ball even if it's with your finger during a time out and you don't have ball in hand.
In this situation the nineball was sunk so the game was over, if the nineball had not fallen the you would have re spotted the six in it's original position.
In this situation the nineball was sunk so the game was over, if the nineball had not fallen the you would have re spotted the six in it's original position.
When a ball is moved accidentally, either by hand or cue or whatever... it's not a foul in the APA unless
A: it's the cue ball
B: it hits the cue ball, changing the outcome of the shot.
There are bunch of specific cases on this page - http://akron.apaleagues.com/Uploads/akron/Unique Rulings.pdf
I don't think this exact one is covered but enough similar cases are mentioned that I feel pretty confident saying it's not a foul.
For the record though, fouls are determined after all the dust has settled and every ball stops... not just when the cue ball stops (because what if another moving ball hits the stopped cue ball?)
PS: I have heard conflicting reports on another situation that comes up every so often. You move a ball accidentally midstroke. A second later, the cue ball travels right through the area the ball used to be sitting. There's no question you affected the outcome of the shot (the cue ball would be in a completely different place if you hadn't moved that ball). So is that a foul?
I think yes, and I remember an LO telling me years ago it was. But more recently a different LO said it's not, you just replace the moved ball after.
A: it's the cue ball
B: it hits the cue ball, changing the outcome of the shot.
There are bunch of specific cases on this page - http://akron.apaleagues.com/Uploads/akron/Unique Rulings.pdf
I don't think this exact one is covered but enough similar cases are mentioned that I feel pretty confident saying it's not a foul.
For the record though, fouls are determined after all the dust has settled and every ball stops... not just when the cue ball stops (because what if another moving ball hits the stopped cue ball?)
PS: I have heard conflicting reports on another situation that comes up every so often. You move a ball accidentally midstroke. A second later, the cue ball travels right through the area the ball used to be sitting. There's no question you affected the outcome of the shot (the cue ball would be in a completely different place if you hadn't moved that ball). So is that a foul?
I think yes, and I remember an LO telling me years ago it was. But more recently a different LO said it's not, you just replace the moved ball after.
Last edited:
Ball in motion
So far the only replies I see address moving a ball. This is a moving ball being interfered with. How the rules adress that?
So far the only replies I see address moving a ball. This is a moving ball being interfered with. How the rules adress that?
I believe everyone who posted has been correct, and I believe it applies to moving balls as well. The only part I don't know is how to handle the ball that was moving. In this example, it wouldn't matter, since the 9 went in. Otherwise, I believe you are to try and approximate where the 6 would have ended up.
That part is just a guess, tho
That part is just a guess, tho
The 6 ball in motion could have been on a path to hit the cue ball and cause a scratch.
DUHHHHHHHH!!
Damn people are thick......
If a ball is moved in anyway that would have altered the path of the CB then IT IS A FOUL! So if you CB was no longer in motion or was traveling in a path where it was not going to contact the 6 then no foul occured.
IF the CB say came off the rail and was heading back twords the 6 then it would be a foul. This explain is pretty easy cause it hit the players cue, so was the CB heading back twords the players cue? If not, no foul.
Not a Foul, a Foul would only have occurred if the CB had come back and hit the Cue.
Black Cat
Black Cat
Unsportsman like conduct.
In a bar 8 ball tournament I watched an unethical player grab the rolling cue ball after a foul. He handed it to his oponent and said "Here you have ball in hand." The problem was the cue ball was on a path to hit a hanging 8 ball. This was reported to the tournament director and he lost due to unsportsman like conduct.
In a bar 8 ball tournament I watched an unethical player grab the rolling cue ball after a foul. He handed it to his oponent and said "Here you have ball in hand." The problem was the cue ball was on a path to hit a hanging 8 ball. This was reported to the tournament director and he lost due to unsportsman like conduct.
Fouls are listed in the Team Manual, and local operators are not allowed to create additional fouls. Rio is correct, no foul.
However, if the 9-Ball hadn't fallen, the APA's official ruling would be to put the six where it would have been had it not contacted the cue. This requires agreement by the players on where the six would have ended up. That agreement doesn't always happen ("it would have gone in" versus "it would have stopped in front of the pocket" is a common disagreement that would give one player or the other a big advantage), so in my area when there's disagreement about what would have happened we would leave the six where it actually did stop.
And no Eddie, there's no foul if you accidentally move a ball that would have or may have been in the path of a moving cue ball, no matter how thick people are.
Last edited:
Not a Foul, a Foul would only have occurred if the CB had come back and hit the Cue.
Black Cat
Being a league ref I am assuming that you know the rules pretty well.
Is there really not a rule in the APA about effecting the path of the CB?
What if the CB was going to scratch and I purposly nudged a ball in front of the pocket? I didn't touch the CB, so is this not a foul? Ofcourse its unsportsmanlike but is it really not a direct non argueable foul for effecting the PATH of the CB?
This (above quote) is how I see it. In the OP's scenario, it would/could only be called a foul IF the 6-ball and cueball would have been judged to have made contact had NOT the path of the 6-ball been altered. If the two balls would have made contact, a scratch may have ocurred (by carom) and the 9-ball would have had to been spotted.
Maniac
If its not a foul whats to stop a player from using his cue to alter the path of a moving ball to stop it from getting in to a bad position. if its a hard hit ball there is really no way to put the ball back where it should be. What if the ball in motion would have broken open a ball for the other player? Now the other player is being penalized for the shooters error.
Say your playing 9 ball and your shooting the 3 ball. The 4 ball it hidden or in a locked position that is impossible to hit without moving another ball first. Whats to stop the shooter from shooting the 3 ball into a rail and let it hit his stick and defect it into the pocket. The 3 ball is now off the table so it becomes a dead ball and you pass the table to the opposing player who now has no shot on the 4 and will give up ball in hand back to the player who commited the error.
Say your playing 9 ball and your shooting the 3 ball. The 4 ball it hidden or in a locked position that is impossible to hit without moving another ball first. Whats to stop the shooter from shooting the 3 ball into a rail and let it hit his stick and defect it into the pocket. The 3 ball is now off the table so it becomes a dead ball and you pass the table to the opposing player who now has no shot on the 4 and will give up ball in hand back to the player who commited the error.
Accidently touching a ball is a lot different than moving balls on purpose to a more favorable position.
I think they have a sportsmanship rule that covers stuff like this. The refs and LOs have leeway if a player gets reported for doing something shady, even if it's not technically against the rules (for example, repeatedly calling a ref over to watch a hit, just to shark the shooter).
I actually get that question a lot, almost every time I explain the rule. But it's usually phrased "What's to stop me..." and I answer "Nothing, but you would never do that because you're an honest player, right?". I then explain that players who try to cheat like that are subject to sportsmanship penalties, including but not limited to forfeiture of all points won in that match.