Declaration of "not an instructor" status -- do we have it all backwards?

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justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
As a minimum, I'd say anyone offering advice about other people's strokes should link a youtube clip of them playing.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. The spotlight should shine on those that are setting the scene and selling their services.

Right, gotta go - I need to find a way to further optimise my browsing experience. It'll make my life complete. :rolleyes:

Oh no, you didn't....... :p

So then, where is your video? I am anxiously awaiting the link. Not tentatively, anxiously.

:rotflmao1:
 

rrick33

Rick
Silver Member
I think most on AZ Billiards are aware that people, other than certified instructors, chime in to provide feedback, despite the fact it is listed as "Ask the Instructor".

On that premise, I place a great deal of accountability upon the person seeking advice to evaluate the information they get and if it doesn't make sence, then they should exercise a little due dilligence and get a 2nd opinion or do a little research.

I used to visit Cuetable.com where only qualified people could respond in the "Ask the Instructor" section. I was often amazed at some of the responses offered by these "Qualified" individuals where they addressed one piece of the problem but failed to address other key elements that were critical in resolving the problem.

The asparin you prescribed is great for my headache but it failed to identify my brain tumor.
This mentality to advice was often more commonplace than I would have expected from qualified instructors.

As for myself, I like having lots of opinions, even if one of those opinions happens to be way off base.

Better to have many opinions to provide perspective than one or two certified opinions that may be incomplete and limiting my options for other perspectives.

I think we should give the student the benefit of the doubt when it comes to common sense and allow them to decide what advice on AZ has value.

Those who are serious or passionate about improving their game will find the answers.
 
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TheThaiger

Banned
Oh no, you didn't....... :p

So then, where is your video? I am anxiously awaiting the link. Not tentatively, anxiously.

:rotflmao1:

1. I don't tend to offer specific advise - I have made my feelings clear on how people should approach the game in arguments passim. It is abundantly clear you lot want to go your own way and are not interested in more successful approaches to the game. Good luck with that.

2. I cue like a snooker player, like virtually all players from the UK. No need to see my action. I miss occasionally, obviously, but that has little to do with mechanics. But there's no way on earth I'm going to waste time and money listening to people that cue like drains.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
1. I don't tend to offer specific advise - I have made my feelings clear on how people should approach the game in arguments passim. It is abundantly clear you lot want to go your own way and are not interested in more successful approaches to the game. Good luck with that.

2. I cue like a snooker player, like virtually all players from the UK. No need to see my action. I miss occasionally, obviously, but that has little to do with mechanics. But there's no way on earth I'm going to waste time and money listening to people that cue like drains.

I call shenannigans.

You had no problem at all offering your opinion on how I shoot in my little video. You were rather emphatic. (And mostly right, as well, in your usual charming way.)

So if you feel that anyone that wishes to provide an opinion on someone's stroke should have to provide a video of themselves first, I say again, let's see it.

Of course you could pull a Neil and go back to erase what you said then, but I believe some of it was quoted, so it will endure....

Just busting you a little, Tim.
 

TheThaiger

Banned
I call shenannigans.

You had no problem at all offering your opinion on how I shoot in my little video. You were rather emphatic. (And mostly right, as well, in your usual charming way.)

So if you feel that anyone that wishes to provide an opinion on someone's stroke should have to provide a video of themselves first, I say again, let's see it.

Of course you could pull a Neil and go back to erase what you said then, but I believe some of it was quoted, so it will endure....

Just busting you a little, Tim.

I know that. But my point relates to those that are selling their services, not those of us encouraging learners to take off their stabilizers.

I don't think it's too much to ask for instructors to show their stripes, particularly as you can just pony up a few dollars and become one yourself in THREE days! :eek:
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
you have to spend a lot of money just for a few nuggets of helpful information... Like I said before, "in the multitude of advisers you will find wisdom itself" and that's why this community is so awesome even with it's craziness and all that lol.

Ohhh, But those little nuggets are soooo worth the time and money to receive them!!

Now I'm thinking of another session.

Sorry for the hijack
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
I understand both sides of the discussion, but I fear that the greatest benefit of a forum can get lost in these discussions. The interactions and experiences from everyone.

That is not to minimize what Fran is concerned about. I totally get that, and understand completely. I appreciate what the instructors (and teachers, heh) do here immensely.

I hope I don't annoy you, Sean, cuz I have no problem dropping a little blurb about being simply a reader with an associated thought on the subject, and identifying myself as such.

I just hope that we don't lose the conversational nature of a forum in the process.

Bruce:

Why would you even remotely think that you'd annoy me? Not a chance!

I read, learn, post, speak my mind, and that's that. That's the value of AZB for me.

And as for being able to contribute here, *of course*!! Did you not catch the blurb above where I saw it's often that a non-instructor type may have a thought or suggestion that instructor-types may not have even thought of?

I know what Fran was getting at with the "free for all" nature of the Ask the Instructor forum. It was getting kind of ridiculous. But there are many shades of gray between those black and white extremes, and I was asking not to have non-instructor types label all their posts with the "non-instructor" peasant placard. Just a bit of moderation, 's all. (And "moderation" doesn't mean interjection from a person -- rather, moderation meaning knowing there's a "middle" between black and white.)

-Sean
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Lots of good 'stuff'

Lost of good stuff. So... here I go maybe putting my foot in my mouth.:wink:

I have been chastised quite a bit for stating that I have been playing, with the use of english, for 46 years & for having that fact in my signature. Some were simply just tired of seeing it so often in my posts, that's when I added it to my signature. Others have said, so what, you could still be a banger, 46 years means nothing. I could tend to agree, but unless I am simply totally inept, one would think that I would have picked up some knowledge & ability in 46 years. That is why I was stating that fact before adding it t my signature so that the readership would know that I am not a newbie. That does not mean that some newbie could not be more talented & even more knowledable than myself. However as some have said, does what I say make sense, is it logical, take it to the table & make one's own determination. If it works for you fine, if it does not you've simply lost a bit of time & as CJ Wiley says, put in a shelf it may fit better at some time in the future. I have even been accused of having some ulterior motive or gratification for pointing out the time that I have been playing the game. I can not figure out what that could possibly be.

Does an instructor have an ulterior motive for pointing out that they are instructors or better yet a 'certified' instructor. Naturally they do, even if they love the game & want to promote it or are trying to fill an apparent need for more instructors as has been pointed out by Mr. Lee.

Does my experience 'really' mean anything? Not necessarily. Does being a 'certified' instructor mean anything? Not necessarily.

That is why I suggested, in my civility thread, that perhaps an instuctor registry af some sorts might be good to have on AZB, with a list of credentails, accomplishments, time as an instructor, time certified, location, general fees, possible specialties etc.

That suggestion went no where. Why, I do not know.

As some one said, those of us on AZB are adults & do not need to be 'protected' & treated like children. It falls upon each one of us to do our own due diligence. It would be nice & possibly more beneficial to instuctors to have said registry. Experienced player? So what. 'Certified' Insructor? So what.

I do not mean to demean the certification process but what does it really mean without more info? If 'we're' going to differentiate between non-instructors & instuctors, which I feel is certainly justified & I support, then why not go farther & qualify not just certify.

I for one would much rather participate in this section than the main because everything here is pool related from those individuals seeking help. I too have been a bit hesitant & selective for fear of being put down & chastised for being a non 'instructor'. I understand Fran's concerns & tend to agree. Some instructors respond with snipets & the suggestion of 'take a lesson'. If there was an instuctors' registry, anyone wanting to take a lesson would have a tool for arranging that. The Ask the "Instructor" section should be for more indepth answers as some instructors attempt to deliver & not merely a section to 'advertise' one's wares.

There, I probably have put my foot in my mouth after having stepped in it.

The above are just my opinions & I am not a 'certified' Instructor but I can be constructively instructive at times.

Best Wishes to All,

PS I've corrected more than a few typos. I am a far better pool player than I am a typist & my keyboard has been acting up.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I find it pretty interesting that some are so insistent that non-instructors should be giving advice in the ask the instructor forum.

For me, it was never about who gives better advice. It's about respecting the title of the forum and what it was meant for, for better or for worse, that's the deal. It's a forum designed for questions for instructors and answers by instructors.

I was never of the opinion that instructors answers are always better than non-instructors. But that's not what this is about. It's not about getting the best answers in one place. It's about getting answers by instructors.

There's always the main forum to poll everyone for their opinions.

Some people just refuse to accept boundaries. It's as simple as that.
 
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row21097

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
good counsel

in matters of importance, financial, legal, health, business, and sport (golf, tennis, track & field, and billiards) there is no substitute for good counsel.

how could you possibly think otherwise?

b
 

boyersj

Indiana VNEA State Champ
Silver Member
Since there was a turn in the focus on my thread, I decided to respond to your inquiry/concern here. I would like to tell a story about my personal situation and you can make your own inferences.

I was approached by a very new player in December 2011. He asked me, "Hey, do you have any pointers for me." I looked at his stance and made some suggestions. He was pretty surprised at my response, because most people were trying to get him to learn situation (use this English for this shot, etc).

A few months later, I saw this player and there was signed of progress. He came up to me and said hey, I went from a SL3 to a SL4. (APA is the only league in the area, and probably the best way to communicate handicaps in the D/C level). I told him good job, and keep practicing.

A few months later he became a SL5. There was an upcoming scotch doubles tournament and he asked if I would be his partner. I thought, ok it will be fun. I didn't expect to do well in all honesty because I hadn't been competitive myself - having just bought a home and getting engaged in the last 2 years. But I did say to him, I will only be your partner if you are willing to work. 3 days a week for 3 weeks we practice and I got him to start understanding the game. We ended up getting 2nd place in a 31 team doubles tournament.

We continue to work some, but I am letting him get the experience I feel he needs to go along with the knowledge. I customized his practice but it did not follow a process. I didn't give it much thought until I had a close friend ask me to teach his son and he would pay for the time.

So I thought, how can I teach someone if I hadn't been taught how to teach? I could teach what I have learned and how to mimic my own game - but what if I have my own issues that I do not know. That is why I asked for feedback in another thread.

Concurrently I begin researching billiard instruction and I run into the PBIA website, now I didn't know what that meant but I did READ to learn their process. They do have a process, and they have a tiered program so you know about how long someone has been affiliated based on their reading. To facilitate I have the link here http://playbetterbilliards.com/pbia-pool-schools/

After some webpage reading, I didn't find any other affiliation who wants to train players to become instructors. I want to emphasize I did not charge the player who went from SL3 to SL5. My motivation to become a teacher is to promote the game, not make money. I make money at work, and I do not want pool to ever feel like work.

OK, that is my perspective that I feel needed to be shared. Some things you asked about in your last post, can be answered with some navigation on the link I provided. You can search for instructors, all the master instructors have their bio, and just a lot of information. I would suspect the reason you didn't get response from your request, is the information is already easily accessible with a little effort.

If not being an instructor bothers you, become one! Otherwise, lets let these threads maintain a beneficial point of view instead of a basis for initializing unnecessary drama, THAT belongs in the main forum!
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
boyersj:

Great post -- very interesting read, and your situation is understood a lot more now.

But one question -- who was that post targeted at? Me? RJ (ENGLISH)? Some others (i.e. those questioning the value of you becoming an instructor when you're looking for assistance yourself)? The general readership?

I ask, because of the royal "you" nature of it. I personally didn't have any "questions" at all for you (as you say of which you're answering). In fact, if anything, I support you in your endeavors, and I hope I made that clear.

And again, I hope you'll come back and let us know how the experience went! If the demand for your current ability as an instructor (without any formal training) is any indication, you should make a fine instructor!

Best,
-Sean
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
I've received some of the best instruction from non-instructors... many were top players who can communicate well without being ADD.

Nobody really cares about certifications and such. Teaching is all outcome-based. Either your students improve or they don't. Instructors, players and general academics should have a rating website where students can rate 1-5 stars and leave comments on their experience (much like what you do with apps in each respective app store).

There are instructors with and without certifications who can't teach, so being certified isn't the best litmus test for finding excellence. Only public feedback from past students can help with that.

In conclusion, I wouldn't worry about "boundaries" in the instructor section. Idiots will weed themselves out and the readership here knows the difference anyways.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've received some of the best instruction from non-instructors... many were top players who can communicate well without being ADD.

Nobody really cares about certifications and such. Teaching is all outcome-based. Either your students improve or they don't. Instructors, players and general academics should have a rating website where students can rate 1-5 stars and leave comments on their experience (much like what you do with apps in each respective app store).

There are instructors with and without certifications who can't teach, so being certified isn't the best litmus test for finding excellence. Only public feedback from past students can help with that.

In conclusion, I wouldn't worry about "boundaries" in the instructor section. Idiots will weed themselves out and the readership here knows the difference anyways.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

This is exactly what happened in the thread that discussed this a long time ago. People don't read.

Who said anything about Certifications being a requirement for posting here as an instructor???
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey Sean,

Here's something to focus on if you really want to gripe about something.

I think the worst thing about this forum and any forum here are the PMs. That's where the undermining and dirty work really gets done.
 
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SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Fran.. you're coming across as defensive and I'm not sure why. You're one of the best resources in that section for sure.

Why care about PMs and whatnot. I prob missed something, which has been par lately.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fran.. you're coming across as defensive and I'm not sure why. You're one of the best resources in that section for sure.

Why care about PMs and whatnot. I prob missed something, which has been par lately.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

I'm generally not defensive, except on this one issue. You would probably be defensive too if you kept posting over and over that you felt that a certificate shouldn't be a requirement for classifying someone as an instructor, and it's not in this forum, and then soon after, someone posts that they don't see why a certificate should be a requirement.

Who wrote that a certificate should be a requirement? Not me!!

I mean...come on already...sheesh.
 
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sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm generally not defensive, except on this one issue. You would probably be defensive too if you kept posting over and over that you felt that a certificate shouldn't be a requirement for classifying someone as an instructor, and it's not in this forum, and then soon after, someone posts that they don't see why a certificate should be a requirement.

Who wrote that a certificate should be a requirement? Not me!!

I mean...come on already...sheesh.

And it wasn't me, either. I simply have a beef with the "not an instructor" placard around the necks of the non-instructor types, when the proper way to handle that is to just say that their offering is just an opinion.

I have said the *if* an instructor has a certification, then that should be plainly annotated in his/her profile and avatar comment line. It doesn't mean that a certificate is "required" -- far from it.

I hope folks will remember my "experience with being a knowledge-transfer conduit being an instructor" comment. Meaning, if you've experience in teaching people how to play pool -- and your instruction has stood up to critique -- as in you are in demand and have repeat business, you are an instructor by definition.

It also doesn't mean a certificate is required, either. I'm simply asking the tables be reversed, so that instructors are identified, not the non-instructors. The lack of instructor credentials in those that are non-instructors is plainly obvious -- and that is my point.

-Sean
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Fran... I said that on my own while I was freezing outside of a J Crew outlet while my woman was shopping. Sorry if it came across as a conspiracy maneuver.

My point in the certificate comment was who is to say who an instructor is and who isn't?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fran... I said that on my own while I was freezing outside of a J Crew outlet while my woman was shopping. Sorry if it came across as a conspiracy maneuver.

My point in the certificate comment was who is to say who an instructor is and who isn't?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Well, in a previous post I wrote that I think it should be up to the individual to determine if he or she is an instructor. I think each of us knows whether or not we are teachers.
 
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