Declaration of "not an instructor" status -- do we have it all backwards?

[iusedtoberich]

I didn't read all the responses of this thread, but thought I'd chime in because I am one of the people who starts or ends a playing advice post with "non an instructor" or similar.

I like participating in the forums, but I see many times people are easily offended. I see this especially in the "Ask the cue maker", "ask the mechanic", and "ask the instructor" section. In all 3 sections, there have been numerous threads over the years where some of the higher level [cuemakers, mechanics, or instructors] have criticized non-professionals for giving advice. They have done this both directly, such as "who are you to give this advice", and non-directly, such as "only take advice from a "qualified" person.

So, when I answer a question, I preface it with "I'm not an ____", so the professionals won't get upset, and the person asking the question will know I'm just trying to help, and my advice might not be the best, but it is what I have personally experienced.

Another thing of note, is when replying from my phone, it does not state if which sub-forum I'm in. So there is no way to tell if in the Main Forum, or the Instructor forum.

So the crux of it is I preface my posts because I don't want to get into a back and forth argument because someone has a big ego. I've seen it over the years in all 3 sub-forums, and its just not worth the aggravation.

 

[oshua86]

I don't know how I have been able to keep myself in the sidelines all this time, it's just crazy how you all can not agree in ONE single thing for gods sake, at what's worse not able to be civilize and show respect to one another, I understand there is background history between many of you, but why are we all here? Because we love pool, so why in this particular forum "ask the instructor" it seems like only a couple of answers to the main threads are pool related and then immediately after the bickering and arguments start. What are we showing all the newcomers player, players that are looking for solid advise, how about the future of this awesome sport? I understand we all have different personalities and tempers but for gods sake that's not good sportsmanship, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular and I'm including myself on this, we ALL have to work on this, I have a very volatile personality but I've come to realize that gettin mad in pool and arguing about everything doesn't help anyone and it won't help your mental game therefore your own game on the table.

So how about starting right now we make it our goal to make this forum more about pool and be respectful and helpful to each other.

I'm only 25 years old and I'm sure most of you are a quite a bit older and with more experience than me, but I won't hesitate to put in time lol.

Or kick all your arses on the table....

... If I get 7 games on the wire on a race to 11, the 7 out, wild 4 and every break

 

[iusedtoberich]

I'd also like to add, some people, such as myself, have signatures turned off. I found most of them to be just unnecessary things that fill the screen and make page loading slower. So keep that in mind if you wish to place your credentials there.

And by default, no signatures or avatars are displayed in the phone version of the website.

 

[The Renfro]

I was Certified as an instructor years ago and a huge part of my income each year comes from that certification... just wasn't in pool =)

I have been doing my best to stay out of this section except for the instances where my will weakens and I end up chiming in....

I've been a student of the game my whole life and being biased on certain topics tends to keep me from staying completely quiet LOL...

Chris

 

[ENGLISH!]

Well stated oshua86. I'm with you. I mean on the civility thing not the matchup.

I'm 59 & your 25. 25 / 59 = 42% So in a race to 34 (the difference in our ages), I want 23 on the wire (68% of 34), & the 6 out (about 68% of 9), & you get every 4th break because I want to be fair even though I don't play much 9 ball. Oh yeah, the stakes, if I win you pay up $59,000, if you win I pay up $2500. Oh yeah, I break first.

What do you think?

 

[oshua86]

Well stated oshua86. I'm with you. I mean on the civility thing not the matchup.

I'm 59 & your 25. 25 / 59 = 42% So in a race to 34 (the difference in our ages), I want 23 on the wire (68% of 34), & the 6 out (about 68% of 9), & you get every 4th break because I want to be fair even though I don't play much 9 ball. Oh yeah, the stakes, if I win you pay up $59,000, if you win I pay up $2500. Oh yeah, I break first.

What do you think?

You got action, I think all my backers are gonna want me to jump up on that right away, however they are going to want us to play for quite a bit more money. 59K is pocket change for any 25 year old

 

[ENGLISH!]

You got action, I think all my backers are gonna want me to jump up on that right away, however they are going to want us to play for quite a bit more money. 59K is pocket change for any 25 year old

At least you have backers. I'm on my own & I had 4 children. Thank goodness only one 21 year old is still at home.

Best Wishes,

 

[TheThaiger]

I find it pretty interesting that some are so insistent that non-instructors should be giving advice in the ask the instructor forum.

For me, it was never about who gives better advice. It's about respecting the title of the forum and what it was meant for, for better or for worse, that's the deal. It's a forum designed for questions for instructors and answers by instructors.

I was never of the opinion that instructors answers are always better than non-instructors. But that's not what this is about. It's not about getting the best answers in one place. It's about getting answers by instructors.

There's always the main forum to poll everyone for their opinions.

Some people just refuse to accept boundaries. It's as simple as that.

If I could summarise: plebs should go to the Main Forum and stay there, and "Will you walk into my parlor?" said the spider to the fly.

I think that's what you're saying...

 

[TheThaiger]

I think the worst thing about this forum and any forum here are the PMs. That's where the undermining and dirty work really gets done.

Would you care to explain this further? I am aware strategic alliances are formed by PM, and some people make a point of contacting all regular posters via PM, for god-alone knows what reason, but what specifically did you have in mind in terms of undermining/dirty work?

 

[boyersj]

boyersj:

Great post -- very interesting read, and your situation is understood a lot more now.

But one question -- who was that post targeted at? Me? RJ (ENGLISH)? Some others (i.e. those questioning the value of you becoming an instructor when you're looking for assistance yourself)? The general readership?

I ask, because of the royal "you" nature of it. I personally didn't have any "questions" at all for you (as you say of which you're answering). In fact, if anything, I support you in your endeavors, and I hope I made that clear.

And again, I hope you'll come back and let us know how the experience went! If the demand for your current ability as an instructor (without any formal training) is any indication, you should make a fine instructor!

Best,
-Sean

Sean,

Thank you for the compliments. Why anyone would question the value of becoming an instructor based on my own interest is a bit comical.
The teacher’s that teach the young of America and prepare them to become the leaders of tomorrow are constantly learning.
They are required to take classes to get their master’s degree. Why the heck would anyone think, hey why do they need to learn if they are teaching?
Teaching others is one of the best ways to learn any skill.

The "you" in my post was to address anyone who chooses to read the post and felt it was pertinent to themselves.
If the reader doesn't feel it pertained to them, then it didn't I could have said the word “anyone”
but I thought the word “you” would read more pointed.

I hope this makes some form of practical sense!

I am going to make one last post regarding this subject. I hope this is listened to closely because it is not pool related.
As a manufacturing engineer, I went to college and earned a Bachelors Degree.
That was the culmination of 16 yrs of education in an accredited curriculum (elementary, high school, and college).

That means "something" when you are job hunting, especially the first time after obtaining the education.
Does that mean I will do a good job, or even qualified at the position I am applying? No.
Does it mean that is the only requirement for an open position, or I am the best candidate?
No, someone with years of experience without the formal education can also be (and in most cases, are more) qualified than someone with just an education.

What it does mean is I went through a plan of study and have a specific minimum comprehension of agreed upon pertinent subject matter. 3
Training and experience was still required, and that is why it is difficult for many people to get that first job after college.
I have worked with colleagues who did not have a formal education, but their 'on the job" training made them phenomenal assets to our team,
and taught me things I could have never learned in class.

That is why in my career there are additional "certification" programs for professionals.
There is no way to learn ALL the information during a certification class, most of that knowledge had already been obtained.
The process of certifications is nothing more that someone else stating, "This person meets the minimum requirements defined for this title".
How that person obtained the knowledge and how long it takes them to obtain that knowledge should not be criticized. It really should be applauded!

One last professional example: the accountant compared to the CPA.
A CPA tends to be in more demand than an accountant. A CPA has passed a very difficult exam, licensed by the state.
An accountant probably just graduated an accredited program. Do I need a CPA? It depends on my needs or preference.
Is the CPA at 25 yrs old “better” than the older accountant who has done the job for 46 years?
Who knows, but the state he was certified (our government) says he is qualified for certain tasks.
The accountant who has not passed the CPA examination is not qualified.

If anyone who posts here doesn’t like any certification criteria, create a new criteria.
See if the revision is accepted and implemented for whatever certification you are concerned with its degree of difficulty to obtain.
Squabbling in a public forum over what is or isn’t does not benefit those who you are trying to help.
Oshua has already made this point and I couldn't agree more!

I had told friends of mine hey check out this thread and see what people are saying about me.
This was to entice them to use the forum and hopefully get them even more interested into pool.
Now, I will no longer refer them to my original thread because of the bickering.
THAT has been a net affect of the discussions about certifications.

 

[Scott Lee]

That is why I suggested, in my civility thread, that perhaps an instuctor registry af some sorts might be good to have on AZB, with a list of credentails, accomplishments, time as an instructor, time certified, location, general fees, possible specialties etc.

That suggestion went no where. Why, I do not know.

Wanna know why, Rick? 'Cause there's already a registry. It's called the PBIA. Quit trying to reinvent the wheel!

As some one said, those of us on AZB are adults & do not need to be 'protected' & treated like children. It falls upon each one of us to do our own due diligence. It would be nice & possibly more beneficial to instuctors to have said registry. Experienced player? So what. 'Certified' Insructor? So what.

I do not mean to demean the certification process but what does it really mean without more info? If 'we're' going to differentiate between non-instructors & instuctors, which I feel is certainly justified & I support, then why not go farther & qualify not just certify.

If you really cared, you would have already read the PBIA site, and understand what purpose it serves.

I for one would much rather participate in this section than the main because everything here is pool related from those individuals seeking help. I too have been a bit hesitant & selective for fear of being put down & chastised for being a non 'instructor'. I understand Fran's concerns & tend to agree.

And yet you absolutely CANNOT refrain from posting anywhere, and everywhere...regardless of, as Fran mentions, "boundaries".

Some instructors respond with snipets & the suggestion of 'take a lesson'. If there was an instuctors' registry, anyone wanting to take a lesson would have a tool for arranging that. The Ask the "Instructor" section should be for more indepth answers as some instructors attempt to deliver & not merely a section to 'advertise' one's wares.

The majority of instructors who do post here, offer tons of tips and advice (at no cost)...that was garnered through years of teaching and playing...as opposed to just "offering their wares" (although there's nothing wrong with that, in that they have spent a lot of time, effort, and $$$ to acquire that information). I, for one, have never refused to answer any question. Answering someone's question, or offering advice, does not invalidate the benefit from a lesson experience.

There, I probably have put my foot in my mouth after having stepped in it.

The above are just my opinions & I am not a 'certified' Instructor but I can be constructively instructive at times.

Best Wishes to All,

PS I've corrected more than a few typos. I am a far better pool player than I am a typist & my keyboard has been acting up.

To me this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[Scott Lee]

Dave...I agree, up to a point. The student will only improve based on their dedication to following the prescribed information/routine conveyed. That's one of the principle reasons why we, as instructors, cannot teach someone how to become a better player. What we can teach them, is how to teach THEMSELVES how to become better...through techniques that are time-tested, with thousands of applications. I think your idea of being able to "rate" instruction with a 'star-based' system is a great idea. You're the IT guy...come up with an app, and create the site. It can even be income-driven!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Teaching is all outcome-based. Either your students improve or they don't. Instructors, players and general academics should have a rating website where students can rate 1-5 stars and leave comments on their experience (much like what you do with apps in each respective app store).

 

[ENGLISH!]

To me this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

If the pot is calling the kettle black? Which one Sir are you?

Everyone is not aware of the PBIA website & should not have to leave this site & go there even if they are aware of it. We were discussing how to possibly improve THIS site not the PBIA site.

You say my suggestion went no where because the PBIA site already exists. What about instructors that are not part of the PBIA. Are you aware that there are such instuctors & do you care about them at all? It does not seem so. It seems that you want an exclusive PBIA certified 'club' at the expense of all non-members. I understand your goal to increase the number of certified instuctors & I support that effort.

A more informative listing or registry on this site could not hurt & might possibly help ALL instuctors. That was my simple point to which you seem to disagree. Fine but no need to call me a POT. I guess you've never heard of advertising in different 'media', so to speak.

I am not inclined to get into a back & forth with you Sir of name calling such as the 'POT' calling the kettle black. Obviously my 'Civility' thread went no where as well.

I really do not know to what good purpose your post quoting me served. Maybe you can enlighten me as to that. Or... were you simply trying to push my buttons as a troll might do?

Best Wishes Sir,

 

[FranCrimi]

If I could summarise: plebs should go to the Main Forum and stay there, and "Will you walk into my parlor?" said the spider to the fly.

I think that's what you're saying...

I don't feel that teachers are superior, nor do I think does anyone else. I do think that they have the benefit of experiencing many different situations, which is why I think people come here to ask their questions, so they can get that unique perspective.

From your experience as a player you may come across a post that you can relate to because you experienced it at some point in your playing career and maybe you can provide some helpful advice to that poster. But your experience is unique to your particular set of circumstances.

I may have seen that issue with two hundred players and maybe worked with each of them in finding ways to solve it. Because of that, it gives me a bigger pool of circumstances to choose from to pick one that comes closest to the circumstances of the poster asking the question.

You'd be surprised at how significant those subtle differences are. This forum is a truly great opportunity for those of us who have had those experiences to be able to share them in that way.

So what's wrong with respecting a place uniquely designed for just that?

 

[Scott Lee]

Rick...You love to play word games, but I won't play. On MANY occasions I have posted the names of several instructors, who are not PBIA, yet are extremely competent. I have also steered many students to them. Of course, since you have only posted almost 2000 times in 6 months, you probably can't remember reading one of those posts...although they certainly exist. The mere attempt to "educate" you on the wealth of resources available (PBIA being only one of them) seems to go right over your head. Oh well...so many of us have tried...

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

If the pot is calling the kettle black? Which one Sir are you?

Everyone is not aware of the PBIA website & should not have to leave this site & go there even if they are aware of it. We were discussing how to possibly improve THIS site not the PBIA site.

You say my suggestion went no where because the PBIA site already exists. What about instructors that are not part of the PBIA. Are you aware that there are such instuctors & do you care at all about them? It does not seem so. It seems that you want an exclusive 'club'.

A more informative listing or registry on this site could not hurt & might possibly help ALL instuctors. That was my simple point to which you seem to disagree. Fine but no need to call me a POT.

I am not inclined to get into a back & forth with you Sir of name calling such as the POT calling the kettle black. Obviously my 'Civility' thread wnet no where as well.

I really do not know to what good purpose your post quoting me served. Maybe you can enlight me as to that. Were you simply trying to push my buttons as a troll might do?

Best Wishes Sir,

 

[FranCrimi]

Would you care to explain this further? I am aware strategic alliances are formed by PM, and some people make a point of contacting all regular posters via PM, for god-alone knows what reason, but what specifically did you have in mind in terms of undermining/dirty work?

If I wanted to be specific, I would have already done so.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't feel that teachers are superior, nor do I think does anyone else. I do think that they have the benefit of experiencing many different situations, which is why I think people come here to ask their questions, so they can get that unique perspective.

From your experience as a player you may come across a post that you can relate to because you experienced it at some point in your playing career and maybe you can provide some helpful advice to that poster. But your experience is unique to your particular set of circumstances.

I may have seen that issue with two hundred players and maybe worked with each of them in finding ways to solve it. Because of that, it gives me a bigger pool of circumstances to choose from to pick one that comes closest to the circumstances of the poster asking the question.

You'd be surprised at how significant those subtle differences are. This forum is a truly great opportunity for those of us who have had those experiences to be able to share them in that way.

So what's wrong with respecting a place uniquely designed for just that?

Hi Fran,

As I said in an earlier post I understand your concerns and would tend to agree some what. From the perspective of a reader of these forums it has become apparent to me that the discussuon nature of multiple parties often involves what some party 'says' often leading others to critique, add to, question, etc. I think that can be a good thing. It often happens in this forum where one instuctor will 'say' something & another instuctor will concur & then add something. The same thing happens if a non-instuctor says something, perhaps even more so, again I think a good thing. Sometimes helping the non-instuctor that is sincerly trying to help as well, again a good thing

If a boundary is truely set up that prohibits non-instuctors from posting here, would you also advocate that instructors be prohibited from posting in the main forum? Should a certain level player also be prohibited from posting there?

I have another suggestion that some might knocked. If the Ask the Instuctor was an Instuctors Only Boundary with all else prohibited, could & should a forum be set up for 'Anyone Instructor Like That Wants To Help' also be set up where all threads are cross filed. Then the OP would get the benfit of both as is sometimes specifically requested. It would save them from posting in this forum AND in the main forum as is at times done. In the main forum there is so much peripheral stuff that is barely pool related that the serious questions are often lost or hard to follow, plus they often get derailed.

Contrary to what some seem to think I am only trying to be helpful. If I wanted to simply stir kaos I am certainly capable of doing so with in the guidlines of this privately owned site.

Best Wishes & with the Utmost of Respct & Regards, & Sincerely,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick...You love to play word games, but I won't play. On MANY occasions I have posted the names of several instructors, who are not PBIA, yet are extremely competent. I have also steered many students to them. Of course, since you have only posted almost 2000 times in 6 months, you probably can't remember reading one of those posts...although they certainly exist. The mere attempt to "educate" you on the wealth of resources available (PBIA being only one of them) seems to go right over your head. Oh well...so many of us have tried...

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Another post resembling that of a troll.

 

[FranCrimi]

Hi Fran,

As I said in an earlier post I understand your concerns and would tend to agree some what. From the perspective of a reader of these forums it has become apparent to me that the discussuon nature of multiple parties often involves what some party 'says' often leading others to critique, add to, question, etc. I think that can be a good thing. It often happens in this forum where one instuctor will 'say' something & another instuctor will concur & then add something. The same thing happens if a non-instuctor says something, perhaps even more so, again I think a good thing. Sometimes helping the non-instuctor that is sincerly trying to help as well, again a good thing

If a boundary is truely set up that prohibits non-instuctors from posting here, would you also advocate that instructors be prohibited from posting in the main forum? Should a certain level player also be prohibited from posting there?

I have another suggestion that some might knocked. If the Ask the Instuctor was an Instuctors Only Boundary with all else prohibited, could & should a forum be set up for 'Anyone Instructor Like That Wants To Help' also be set up where all threads are cross filed. Then the OP would get the benfit of both as is sometimes specifically requested. It would save them from posting in this forum AND in the main forum as is at times done. In the main forum there is so much peripheral stuff that is barely pool related that the serious questions are often lost or hard to follow, plus they often get derailed.

Contrary to what some seem to think I am only trying to be helpful. If I wanted to simply stir kaos I am certainly capable of doing so with in the guidlines of this privately owned site.

Best Wishes & with the Utmost of Respct & Regards, & Sincerely,

Rick, I think Mike and Jerry have already showed their intent with this forum and that is that it was set up so players can ask questions to instructors. Also, as we know, they have not restricted the forum, nor have they restricted any of their other sub forums.

I would imagine that any restrictions of that particular nature will have to be self-imposed.

But just to answer your question as a "what if:" If they were to restrict this and the other sub forums ----Yes, I think everyone should be allowed to post in the main forum. That would be the melting pot where everyone can come together.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, I think Mike and Jerry have already showed their intent with this forum and that is that it was set up so players can ask questions to instructors. Also, as we know, they have not restricted the forum, nor have they restricted any of their other sub forums.

I would imagine that any restrictions of that particular nature will have to be self-imposed.

But just to answer your question as a "what if:" If they were to restrict this and the other sub forums ----Yes, I think everyone should be allowed to post in the main forum. That would be the melting pot where everyone can come together.

Fran,

That does not mean an idea can't change their minds. Maybe it 'can't' be done but I think an Ask the Instuctor forum where one would have to register & submit 'credentials' to be included & allowed to respond might be a good thing along with the creation of a sub forum 'Any Instructor 'Type' That Wants To Help' might be a good thing & prevent some, if not all of the derailments etc.

I guess such an Intructor Forum would have to be constantly moderated to prevent Non-Registered people from responding.

Oh well, it was just an idea that may not have been that well thought out. (opening for slur, etc.)

Thanks Fran & Best Wishes,