the basis of

[JB Cases]

John, the cte line in relationship to the ghost ball line is meaningless when trying to prove that cte can perform every cut angle with robotic execution.

The factors that matter are you, the cueball, & the object ball. The cte line remains the same for every shot, if you are doing it right.

No the CTE line is not the same for every shot. For every shot there is a CTE line but it does not remain constant as the cue ball is moved around.

The CTE line is NOT meaningless in relation to the ghost ball line because they both exist only one is known immediately without estimation while the other is ONLY discovered through estimation if the GB method is used.

But there does exist an exact GB line for every shot. Whether the shooter finds it or not one exists.

And there exists a CTE line for every shot. The shooter can find this one easily and stand so that it goes right between their eyes if he wants to or choose to stand anywhere in relation to it.

Well, anyway the point is really moot because I have done every video challenge that anyone has posted, balls along a string, Dr. Dave's three angles, parallel shot positions, every single time someone has claimed that CTE cannot possibly work with some shot setup I have done the video to see for myself and every time CTE works perfectly.

So if you have some suggestion to prove your assertions then tell me and I will set up the video exactly as you lay it out IF it's possible for me to do so.

Once again though I find it interesting that you also don't seem to want to discuss the video I put up and the concept I put forth. Neither does Pat, or Dr. Dave or any of the anti-CTE people. All of you like to declare that you know how it works but none of you can show us proof of your claims. Meanwhile we make videos that show it in action using all of the challenges thrown at us.

Frankly I don't understand why you guys continue to argue about this.

You have Dave Segal, myself, Stand Shuffet, and many others who have undertaken to try and figure all this out and still you, who won't try it, won't learn the steps, won't study it physically on the table, insist that you know exactly how it works. I just can't understand that.

I guess that would be about like you looking at my cue case from the outside and trying to tell me how it is constructed. You would have no chance even if you were an experienced leather worker.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I don't really know if this diagram explains anything, or helps anyone's argument.

 

[(((Satori)))]

No the CTE line is not the same for every shot. For every shot there is a CTE line but it does not remain constant as the cue ball is moved around.

The CTE line is NOT meaningless in relation to the ghost ball line because they both exist only one is known immediately without estimation while the other is ONLY discovered through estimation if the GB method is used.

But there does exist an exact GB line for every shot. Whether the shooter finds it or not one exists.

And there exists a CTE line for every shot. The shooter can find this one easily and stand so that it goes right between their eyes if he wants to or choose to stand anywhere in relation to it.

Well, anyway the point is really moot because I have done every video challenge that anyone has posted, balls along a string, Dr. Dave's three angles, parallel shot positions, every single time someone has claimed that CTE cannot possibly work with some shot setup I have done the video to see for myself and every time CTE works perfectly.

So if you have some suggestion to prove your assertions then tell me and I will set up the video exactly as you lay it out IF it's possible for me to do so.

Once again though I find it interesting that you also don't seem to want to discuss the video I put up and the concept I put forth. Neither does Pat, or Dr. Dave or any of the anti-CTE people. All of you like to declare that you know how it works but none of you can show us proof of your claims. Meanwhile we make videos that show it in action using all of the challenges thrown at us.

Frankly I don't understand why you guys continue to argue about this.

You have Dave Segal, myself, Stand Shuffet, and many others who have undertaken to try and figure all this out and still you, who won't try it, won't learn the steps, won't study it physically on the table, insist that you know exactly how it works. I just can't understand that.

I guess that would be about like you looking at my cue case from the outside and trying to tell me how it is constructed. You would have no chance even if you were an experienced leather worker.

Again, you are comparing the cte line to the ghost ball line. What I wish you would recognize is that those two will vary according to the cut angle because the ghost all line will change between the cueball and object ball but the cte line will remain the same.

 

[JB Cases]

Again, you are comparing the cte line to the ghost ball line. What I wish you would recognize is that those two will vary according to the angle to the pocket because the ghost all line will change in relation to the cueball and object ball but the cte line will remain the same in relation to the two.

Did you even bother to read my post all the way through before telling me what you think is wrong?

Because if you did then you will see that the variable GB line is exactly what I diagrammed on my table and how I feel the CTE line relates to it.

Again here is the diagram for your reference.

How you can possibly say that I don't understand what the GB line is, where it is and how it relates to the CTE line shot by shot after watching this is beyond me.

I might be wrong about the significance But I certainly know exactly WHERE these lines are and where they go all the way back to the shooters.

Well, you have been for the most part an excellent way for me to show my thoughts on how CTE works. I have the feeling you aren't really willing to entertain the thought that it's not subconscious adjustment so I suppose the discussion is completely over between us. I will let the readers read my points and watch my videos and decide for themselves.

As I said, many of us have undertaken a study of this method and Stan took the steps to produce a professional DVD with another version coming out that reflects even more insight. You have not studied this subject physically, neither has Pat or Lou and so you really can't even be on the same plane as we are.

My position at this point is that whoever wants to try it will find plenty of people willing to help them. Whoever does not because they think it's too complicated or because you or Pat or someone else has convinced them that they can get by with GB or some other method then that's fine as well. The train has left the station when it comes to CTE and nothing said here will stop it from spreading. I personally hope that guys like you will someday decide to really immerse yourself in it because I feel that if you do then you might very well have some insights by coming from a skeptical position that would be helpful. But until you actually learn the steps and know how to really apply it you will not be able to have an equal conversation about the method.

Thank you anyway for the conversation so far.

 

[8pack]

I'm curious about who he is too. He says he lives by Dallas/Ft. Worth and plays in the Omega Tour, but I can count 100 ball runners that play in those tournaments on one hand. It would be interesting to see what you guys are discussing, it can't be that complicated, but it sure appears to be.

Hmmm, so, Yoda, can you private message me if you don't want your "cover blown?" I don't know hardly anyone on here that doesn't use their name or hasn't told me in a private email.

I would like to know more about this topic, but I don't have a clue what they're talking about. I cool would it be to actually learn from Yoda? Would the "Force" then be with me? :idea:

100 ball runner weekly,I would say this person has a good grip on pocketing balls.Now he has basically thrown away his way of aiming for cte. And his pocketing ability has gone up 20 to 30 percent.
Players dont throw away what works they build upon their knowledge.
If one can become an expert at pivoting in a short time I would say may the force be with you cause your going to need it.

(Story sounds fishy )

 

[ENGLISH!]

John,

Seems the only way to resolve this 'discussion' would be to construct a robot with laser lines & an automatic 1/2 tip 'pivot' & shoot a ton of shots.

If it works & the robot makes all of the shots, then he must have a subconscious mind as well.:wink:

If the robot missses the shots then he needs to HAMB to train his subconscious mind.:wink:

No seriously if the robot misses then they would be correct and perecption & the subconscious would still be a criticle element.

However, if CTE gets one nearly perfect, that seems to be a better starting point for one's subconscious to make minute adjustments.

Best Regards to You &

 

[JB Cases]

I don't really know if this diagram explains anything, or helps anyone's argument.

All diagrams that supporters of CTE do are ignored by the anti-CTE side.

Here is one I posted a year or so ago.

http://www.jbcases.com/cases/CTE DIAGRAMS/Exit Lines.jpg

This one shows how the CTE line and the GB line changes with all the balls placed on a string. It's too big to post.

http://www.jbcases.com/images/CTE-GB-along a string.png

This one is the exit distances between the GB line and the CTE when the CTE line is the same for each shot. (actually the CTE line would change slightly for each shot but on paper it's diagrammed as the same)

This was done in Corel Draw with a 4.5x9ft rectangle with all shots to the corner. Everything is drawn in real size.

We can allow for some measurement error and I am sure if anyone wants to duplicate my drawings in a cad program they will come up with slightly different results.

The shots vary from 2.5 feet distance and about a 15 degree cut to an 8.6 feet distance and a cut angle of about 85 degrees.

The largest distance between the shot line (Ghost Ball line) and the CTE line is .41mm with a 75 degree cut and the shortest distance is .07mm with a 25 degree cut. That is 4/10ths of a SINGLE mm. Meaning that the distance from the CTE line and the GB line is ALWAYS less than .5mm as it exits the back of the cueball facing the shooter.

Does this actually mean anything?

The shooter sees and acquires the CTE line easily. No matter what the shot is he can stand on or near the CTE line without guessing.

And in reality looking at the back of the cueball that line he is standing on is less than half a mm from the GB-shot line.

I mean I don't see how this is not significant.

You all asked for diagrams, you asked us to figure this out and yet you are completely and totally unwilling to look at what we have done and try to puzzle it out with us.

No, you simply stick with the idea that it can only work by subconscious adjustment.

Well ok then, using the CTE line and the CB two objective items I can put my body and cue within .5mm of the shot line every time even without knowing where the actual shot line is, i.e. NOT imagining a GB and trying to mentally mark it's center.

I am confident that there is no shot where the object ball has a clear path to a pocket that I cannot get to GB center using CTE. With absolutely no idea where GB center is nor where the contact point is, nor even looking for either of those things I can put my cue stick on the GB line every time just by starting with the CTE line.

And I firmly believe that the fact that the lines are so close at CB exit is the reason we can use the CTE line to orient the body and sweep/pivot to center CB from an offset and be on the shot line.

 

[JB Cases]

100 ball runner weekly,I would say this person has a good grip on pocketing balls.Now he has basically thrown away his way of aiming for cte. And his pocketing ability has gone up 20 to 30 percent.
Players dont throw away what works they build upon their knowledge.
If one can become an expert at pivoting in a short time I would say may the force be with you cause your going to need it.

(Story sounds fishy )

Stevie Moore switched to CTE after he was already world class. So did Matt Krah and Phil Burford.

John,

Seems the only way to resolve this 'discussion' would be to construct a robot with laser lines & an automatic 1/2 tip 'pivot' & shoot a ton of shots.

If it works & the robot makes all of the shots, then he must have a subconscious mind as well.:wink:

If the robot missses the shots then he needs to HAMB to train his subconscious mind.:wink:

No seriously if the robot misses then they would be correct and perecption & the subconscious would still be a criticle element.

However, if CTE gets one nearly perfect, that seems to be a better starting point for one's subconscious to make minute adjustments.

Best Regards to You &

Perhaps. I don't know that CTE is mathematically perfect. I also don't know that I am not making teeny tiny adjustments. What I do know with 100% surety is that this feels like no feel. By that I mean that when I get on a ball I don't have any question whatsoever that I am on the shot line. No guessing at all.

But the larger point is that we don't need a robot. There are enough people using it at this point that we know it's not a gimmick and nor some jedi-mind trick. It's a precise way to approach a shot that relies on objects that can be seen to guide the player from assessing the shot to bending down into the shot position.

No estimation needed. So I agree if it gets me to within .5mm of the actual shot line then my subconscious has very very little work to do.

 

[8pack]

Stevie Moore switched to CTE after he was already world class. So did Matt Krah and Phil Burford.



Perhaps. I don't know that CTE is mathematically perfect. I also don't know that I am not making teeny tiny adjustments. What I do know with 100% surety is that this feels like no feel. By that I mean that when I get on a ball I don't have any question whatsoever that I am on the shot line. No guessing at all.

But the larger point is that we don't need a robot. There are enough people using it at this point that we know it's not a gimmick and nor some jedi-mind trick. It's a precise way to approach a shot that relies on objects that can be seen to guide the player from assessing the shot to bending down into the shot position.

No estimation needed. So I agree if it gets me to within .5mm of the actual shot line then my subconscious has very very little work to do.

They probably worked into there game and I would bet they played good before the cte.The process of cte is not something you learn over nite and bring it into your game.I would say it takes a while.
What Yoda was saying makes no since to me,but Im not to brite.:smile:
People shouldn,t fix what isnt broken.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't know that CTE is mathematically perfect.

LOL.

I also don't know that I am not making teeny tiny adjustments.

LOL again.

What I do know with 100% surety is that this feels like no feel.

Just like every other way of aiming by feel once you've got the hang of it.

Thanks for your not-so-candid admission that CTE is a preshot alignment routine like many others. Why you choose to worship this one is your business, I guess.

pj
chgo

 

[JB Cases]

LOL.


LOL again.


Just like every other way of aiming by feel once you've got the hang of it.

Thanks for your not-so-candid admission that CTE is a preshot alignment routine like many others. Why you choose to worship this one is your business, I guess.

pj
chgo

ALL aiming system are alignment systems. And no, I can't say that CTE is mathematically perfect because I don't have the skills to prove whether it is or is not. And I can't say for sure that I am not making some teeny adjustments because I don't have the time or desire to set up the measurements and observational apparatus to determine that.

What I do know is that CTE feels exact and it feels precise.

I don't worship CTE. I like it because out of the ones I know it's the one I like best. I am appreciative of the effort that Hal Houle made to bring it to the pool world and appreciative of the continued efforts of Stan and other top instructors to teach CTE. I stand up against those of you who would denigrate it because I feel I owe that to Hal.

Had Hal not explicitly sought me out to teach me his systems then I am certain I would either not care about them now or I might even be in the Hit A Million Balls - Ghost Ball rocks forever camp and arguing against CTE as one of those who would never learn it and be convinced that despite never learning it I know all about how it works.

Now you want to lecture me on the difference between alignment and aiming probably. Go ahead.

 

[JB Cases]

They probably worked into there game and I would bet they played good before the cte.The process of cte is not something you learn over nite and bring it into your game.I would say it takes a while.
What Yoda was saying makes no since to me,but Im not to brite.:smile:
People shouldn,t fix what isnt broken.

Of course they played good before CTE. Yoda isn't saying he didn't play good.

You might not remember but James Roberts also came on here and was at first dismissive of CTE then at some point he tried it and became convinced of it's value.

Also I think that the time it takes to learn and use CTE varies fro person to person. For me the biggest hurdle was trusting it and not reverting to other methods. Once I committed to gambling using CTE I found that I had no problem working it easily into my game. And since I am not that great a player I figure that those who are very good ought to have an easier time of it.

But who knows. We have had plenty of anonymous knockers why not a few anonymous supporters

 

[LAMas]

If the center of the CB is aimed at the edge of the OB it is geometrically fixed regardless of the location of the CB and OB on the table.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If the center of the CB is aimed at the edge of the OB it is geometrically fixed regardless of the location of the CB and OB on the table.

View attachment 256103

This is a drawing I've been meaning to make and post - you did it better than I would have.

Hope some, at least, will get the message from it.

Thanks,

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

But the larger point is that we don't need a robot. There are enough people using it at this point that we know it's not a gimmick and nor some jedi-mind trick. But still so many 'see' it as such & only the robot 'might' convince them that it is not a gimmick. It's a precise way to approach a shot that relies on objects that can be seen to guide the player from assessing the shot to bending down into the shot position. I agree, I quickly went from ghost ball to equal & opposite fractional overlap. Actual visible 'things' that can actaully be seen & not a visually created hologram.

No estimation needed. So I agree if it gets me to within .5mm of the actual shot line then my subconscious has very very little work to do.
I concur. If I can consciously put myself into the correct shot solution, then all my subconscious mind would have to do is concur as well.

John,

All I'm saying is that until the robot, you're fighting a losing battle even if it is the good fight. Iquiring minds want to know. Other minds, well they're happy with what they have.

Best Regards to You &

 

[Yoda4962]

correction...

100 ball runner weekly,I would say this person has a good grip on pocketing balls.Now he has basically thrown away his way of aiming for cte. And his pocketing ability has gone up 20 to 30 percent.
Players dont throw away what works they build upon their knowledge.
If one can become an expert at pivoting in a short time I would say may the force be with you cause your going to need it.

(Story sounds fishy )

Yes, i think that the statement 'throw away' is too severe. Let's use the word 'replace' and 'favor'. Is that better ?

A good player never completely throws away the things he has learned. right ?
y

 

[Yoda4962]

my opinion on this.....

I'm curious about who he is too. He says he lives by Dallas/Ft. Worth and plays in the Omega Tour, but I can count 100 ball runners that play in those tournaments on one hand. It would be interesting to see what you guys are discussing, it can't be that complicated, but it sure appears to be.

Hmmm, so, Yoda, can you private message me if you don't want your "cover blown?" I don't know hardly anyone on here that doesn't use their name or hasn't told me in a private email.

I would like to know more about this topic, but I don't have a clue what they're talking about. I cool would it be to actually learn from Yoda? Would the "Force" then be with me? :idea:

Cj, at your level of play, i think you would be best served my Stan in person, or his DVD. Even though i could explain CTE easily, i would not want to be guilty of trying to 'counter your TOI' techniques. I think I could play very strong with the TOI techniques as well !
If I see you at the Derby City, i will introduce myself. I do not want to be subjected to the Lou's and Patrick's abuse on here !!!! lol

Or , tell me when you will be at a local room, and I will come see you.

Devoted to pool, and pool players ,
Y

 

[Yoda4962]

Some agreement here....

John,

Seems the only way to resolve this 'discussion' would be to construct a robot with laser lines & an automatic 1/2 tip 'pivot' & shoot a ton of shots.

If it works & the robot makes all of the shots, then he must have a subconscious mind as well.:wink:

If the robot missses the shots then he needs to HAMB to train his subconscious mind.:wink:

No seriously if the robot misses then they would be correct and perecption & the subconscious would still be a criticle element.

However, if CTE gets one nearly perfect, that seems to be a better starting point for one's subconscious to make minute adjustments.

Best Regards to You &

I believe that the CTE get's you nearly perfect, and the player then uses a small amount of 'pocket sense' to complete the picture.....at least i think that's what i do.... others may not.
y

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I believe that the CTE get's you nearly perfect, and the player then uses a small amount of 'pocket sense' to complete the picture

There's also a fair amount of "pocket sense" utilized in CTE "getting you nearly perfect". No part of CTE is "fully robotic" except seeing the CTE line during initial lineup. Every decision and move from there on is heavily imbued with "pocket sense".

In fact, CTE users right now in another thread are arguing that even the CTE line is a matter of opinion.

And let me say again for the millionth time: I don't think the "demystification" of CTE and other aiming systems makes them any less valuable as pool playing aids. In fact, I think seeing them realistically makes them even more effective, and understanding the underlying principles makes them more broadly applicable.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

the two smartest pool sweaters in the world.

Cj, at your level of play, i think you would be best served my Stan in person, or his DVD. Even though i could explain CTE easily, i would not want to be guilty of trying to 'counter your TOI' techniques. I think I could play very strong with the TOI techniques as well !
If I see you at the Derby City, i will introduce myself. I do not want to be subjected to the Lou's and Patrick's abuse on here !!!! lol

Or , tell me when you will be at a local room, and I will come see you.

Devoted to pool, and pool players ,
Y

I'm going to be around Ft. Worth more in the coming months. Maybe we can go to Rusty's in Arlington or Ft. Worth sometime.

yeah, I understand not wanting to be "abused" by the two smartest pool sweaters in the world. ttys