Shot vs. Shape

1ab said:
The conveyance of importance was given to a novice player that had an unusual ability at shot making. The back and forth began as he was told that his habit of shooting with excessive speed and not paying enough attention to shape was going to forever limit his success. For the average player to gain a healthy perspective of shot vs. shape was the goal. It became a source of contention in explaining why shape was so important when, like so many respondents feel, what good is shape if you can't continue to shoot. In the end, who wins the most games over time ?
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In the end, you can't win most of your games unless you're good at both. If one player thinks shotmaking is important and shape is overrated, and another player thinks shape is important and shotmaking is overrated, they're both wrong. Nobody who's good at one and not the other is good at pool.

-Andrew
 
I think this is a great question unfortunately, I don't think there's a great answer. Many people here have made a valid point - pool has a great deal to do with shot-making but any fan of the game will tell you, there are plenty of players that rely heavily on their position-play and are rarely challenged to produce a difficult cut, bank or long shot. The truth is, the two are completely connected. You have to pocket the ball AND get shape for the next. Failure to do both will often prevent you from playing perfectly (if even for a single set).

It would be like asking the question, "When writing, what's more important, grammar or content?" You sorta have to do both to meet your objective but I would say shot-making is your content, position-play is your grammar. You need to make the ball as much as a writer needs to have a story to tell and you're not going to get very far if you neglect the rest.

You have a 30-degree shot on the 1 and you have to use bottom left and send the cue-ball two rails for position on the 2. THAT is your shot. If you only pocket the ball and neglect shape, you may finish your event having never missed an offensive opportunity but you'll limit your offensive opportunities to the absolute minimum.
 
The more accurate your shot the more accurate your shape..

How well you aim the shot and shoot it is definitely more important.

Many shots you can still make but the shape will still suffer because you hit it too thin or too thick.

Aiming is way more important. That's what makes your shape......
 
1ab said:
The conveyance of importance was given to a novice player that had an unusual ability at shot making.This to me is most certainly true!! :smile: The back and forth began as he was told that his habit of shooting with excessive speed and not paying enough attention to shape was going to forever limit his success.He should listen to him, for this is true too ! For the average player to gain a healthy perspective of shot vs. shape wasIS the goal. It became a source of contention in explaining why shape was so important when, like so many respondents feel, what good is shape if you can't continue to shoot. In the end, who wins the most games over time ?
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Here is what a verry good(and I mean good) Pool Player told me some time ago. We had what sounds like the very same arguement, and as a shooter I felt the shot was more important than getting shape. HOWEVER; once you can shoot very well, you learn that shape can take you further. This is primarily why he is a Pool Player,.... and I was/am a shooter. Without making this a novel, here's the condensed version:
In short what he was saying is that the odds are on the player that plays shape rather than the shooter. I tend to agree as there are many more options to playing a "safe" than to playing the odds onna thin shot that isburied from across the table. In sucha situation, you are going to play safe if you wanna stay alive. (unless you score in the 90's in making kick-shots).

Don't get me wrong: there'sa time for shot-making which is why I said there are many variables involved. But, in the long-run, you are better served by playing the odds, and safe play using shape gets you there.
I guess that is where you confused me playing "safe" defensively is not exactly "shape", but you do need shape on the cueball in order to execute a safe properly. (unless you are realllllly lucky !!!)
Hope this clears is all up a lil bit.
 
I play with a guy from time to time who just can't win. He looks like a world beater and making tough shot after tough shot. Problem is the law of averages get him. He either misses or leaves himself so bad that he couldn't find his next ball with a compass and a tracking dog.

I probably miss more balls trying to do "something" than just straight execution of the ball in hole. Those who do not worry about shape should take up bowling or darts.

Nick
 
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cleary said:
The game is so much more than putting a ball in the hole. You can play a set of 9ball and not miss a shot and still lose. Of course, you can play perfect shape but won't mean anything if you missed the ball. They go hand in hand. If you keep shooting hard shots, you will miss no matter how good you are. Cueball, cueball, cueball.
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This. You will never be a good player if you can't control whitey!
 
I think it all depends on the shot and the shape needed. If the shot easy i will focus more on position if the position is easy i focus on the shot if both are easy i focus on both if both are extremely difficult i play safe.. i agree with everyone else too. Seems like there no wrong answer
 
Once you get to an A level and and above, everyone is pretty much a solid shotmaker. Cue ball control is what separates good players from great players. Anyone can make any shot given enough tries to figure out the aim, but making that tough shot and getting in line for the next shot takes real skill.

Some say the key to running racks is to not miss, which is obviously true, but more that that, the key is to not have a missable shot.
 
Maybe we can measure this using both 9-ball ABCD, and APA skill level.

Using the APA skill level of 2-7. At what level do you think shot making ability flattens out? Meaning shotwise, would a APA 5 be able to pocket the balls within 10% of an APA 7?

Using 9-ball ABCD scale, what level would be a ceiling if you can't control shape?

victorl said:
Once you get to an A level and and above, everyone is pretty much a solid shotmaker. Cue ball control is what separates good players from great players. Anyone can make any shot given enough tries to figure out the aim, but making that tough shot and getting in line for the next shot takes real skill.

Some say the key to running racks is to not miss, which is obviously true, but more that that, the key is to not have a missable shot.
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ctyhntr said:
Maybe we can measure this using both 9-ball ABCD, and APA skill level.

Using the APA skill level of 2-7. At what level do you think shot making ability flattens out? Meaning shotwise, would a APA 5 be able to pocket the balls within 10% of an APA 7?

Using 9-ball ABCD scale, what level would be a ceiling if you can't control shape?
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I'm stalking you! j/k...

I'm a 7/9 and my shot-making is still improving. Well, it had better anyways, if I want to do any better. As they say, "There are 7s.. and then there are 7s."

I'd say locally, maybe a 6/C player in 8, maybe a 7 in 9. I played one once that made shots left and right while I couldn't get anything going. He just couldn't do break-outs and such to save his life. After my game showed up, it was all over. He didn't think I was a 7 and was trying to give me pointers up until he stopped winning. :o

I've seen a couple of players that may have made it to a 7 in 8, or an 8 in 9, that didn't have very good CB control/strategy. When their shooting was off, they were dead in the water. I was talking to a friend the other day, saying that so-and-so was tough to beat when they're shooting well.. the difference, though, is being tough to beat when you're not shooting well.
 
Pool

Everyone always concentrates on making shots when they first learn, when they should be concentrating on their stroke. Some people never learn to play shape other than a few outside english shots.

Making the shot continues the game to your advantage.
Making shape makes the game easier to continue.
 
genomachino said:
How well you aim the shot and shoot it is definitely more important.

Many shots you can still make but the shape will still suffer because you hit it too thin or too thick.

Aiming is way more important. That's what makes your shape......
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QFT. This is a really good point. Many times my position will be butchered because I made the ball, but I rattled it in by overcutting it or hit it too fat.

It might seem like splitting hairs but how you cheat the pocket has a huge effect on your leave... the ball might be 2 diamonds off where you visualized, just from that slight change in cut.

A very accurate shotmaker might find his patterns go according to plan, while a shaky shotmaker might bobble in a 90% cut and find he's way out of line as a result.
 
I don't see a clear difference in their importance or their difficulty - they're equally essential and highly interdependent. I don't think there's an answer.

pj
chgo
 
consider a run, played by two players.

player A pockets balls very well, but lacks in position play.
player B plays smart shape, but is a little weak on potting.

as player A's run goes on, a wide variety of shot difficulties occurs. most of these are little problem, since he shoots so well. there is, however, the potential to leave a REALLY hard shot or force a kick, bank, or worse.

meanwhile, player B is leaving easy shot after easy shot. knowledge of controlling the cue ball means no big surprises on the next shot. there is much less variability, resulting in a much higher chance of success.

this might not be the situation every time, but give it a hundred racks or so and see how it turns out...statistical analysis is fun.

-s
 
Difficult to calculate

According to the many scholarly works I have read, there is "always" a shot.

From the WP's of Mr. George Fels, Dr. Jack Koehler's Science of Pocket Billiards, the 99 Critical Shots by Ray Martin, Robert Byrne's exceptional diagrams, Willie Hoppe's mastery of rails in Billiards, and other early works, there is always a shot. The attempt is to achieve the desired result, and there are only two. To be shooting and to keep your opponent from shooting.

"I'm shooting Fats. When I miss, you can shoot."

Fast Eddie is implying that when he is shooting, "If" he misses, Fats will have his chance. This is a good mental position to operate from.
 
A better question.

Obviously both skills are important.

A better question IMO is where should you focus your attention. I 100% nelieve the answer to this question is position because if you plan your shot correctly and execute perfect position then the shot making is automatic. This belief is based on the fact that even a slight error on where the cueball and object ball contact will send the cueball off line. Focusing on and executing accurate shot making does not however guarantee position.
 
I want to change my answer.. good posted question I've been thinking about it all night. I calculate the angle speed and spin for position before I even shoot. I am then 100 percent focused on making a shot. Shape is a result A proper execution And correct calculations. So my answer is 100 percent make the shot If I miss It will be because of 2 things My calculations were off Or my execution was flawed. Shape is more a matter of feedback. I don't really think about Making the ball we're getting in shape When I'm down to shoot I already thought about it. And whatever happens after I execute this shot is truly feedback. Calculate Visualize Execute evaluate. .
 
Neither is more important. Both are simply different aspects of play within the game. The position and the ball pocketing action are performed at the same time. The success of play is dependent upon both of them happening correctly. Some might have the false impression that since you are still at the table after pocketing a ball, than this is better than your opponent being at the table. However if you didn't achieve proper position, the shot and or the runout are likely lost. Whats more important, kicks, banks, safeties, combos? None. Just more aspects. Although when playing in a ring game, im glad im a good shot maker. ;)
 
I think the mistake some make when it comes to this discussion is the separation of shotmaking and shape. IMO they are one and the same.

If you're practicing correctly you should be comfortable (more or less) making just about any shot with any type of cueing of the cue ball.(read that english or spin) Therefore you shouldn't really have to "pick" either shot or shape.

Of course there are situations that arise where you are straight in and drawing/following the cue won't help, or there just isn't any high percentage way of getting shape on the next ball. However, in these situations you should have seen this a few shots earlier and came up with a plan (such as a safety or a break out shot) or you made an ooops on your last shot and your current shape is bad, in which case you should be evaluating a safe or just making the shot. Point being though, these situations are in the minority.

Long story short(never is), shot and shape are IMO the same creature. You practice so you are able to make each type of shot from every possible cue position so when you are faced with a shot where the average player asks "should I just make this and not worry about shape?", you won't have that question.
 
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