Shot vs. Shape

I truly appreciate all the responses to this thread, and after considering the different explanations and views, I feel shot making ability, benefits the game in an obvious nature and is essential without question. On the other aspect of shape making ability, although integral, remains difficult to understand in measure of importance. Some friends and I were shooting last night, while keeping up with this thread, decided to try to call, not only the shot to be made, but the next intended shot. The game changed markedly. We missed more often trying to execute perfect shape, and as well how inaccurate our forecast were on the whole. It made me believe my own position play suffers tremendously. It made me wonder how I became so unaware of my own shortcomings, so...back to the drawing board !!
 
Last two posts.

1ab said:
I truly appreciate all the responses to this thread, and after considering the different explanations and views, I feel shot making ability, benefits the game in an obvious nature and is essential without question. On the other aspect of shape making ability, although integral, remains difficult to understand in measure of importance. Some friends and I were shooting last night, while keeping up with this thread, decided to try to call, not only the shot to be made, but the next intended shot. The game changed markedly. We missed more often trying to execute perfect shape, and as well how inaccurate our forecast were on the whole. It made me believe my own position play suffers tremendously. It made me wonder how I became so unaware of my own shortcomings, so...back to the drawing board !!
Click to expand...

Did you read the last two posts?
There's your answer. You're looking at pocketing the object ball and playing position as two separate endeavors. The are not. And one is not more important than the other.

When you approach a shot, you first decide where to strike the object ball to make it. Next you consider where the cue ball will go after contact. You should already know how rolling, skidding or spinning a cue ball affects the path of the cue ball, so you choose one and choose a speed to strike the cue ball in order to achieve position for your next shot. Once you've done this, you've combined both goals into one plan and it's merely a matter of execution.

It sounds like you might benefit from a lesson in cue ball control; it will make the process much easier.
 
drawing board suggestions:

1. drills for speed control
2. drills to stop/stun at every distance

these two things will enhance your cueball control greatly. then, when integrated into your strategy, will do wonders for pattern play and runout success.

-s
 
Donny Lutz said:
" Next you consider where the cue ball will go after contact. You should already know how rolling, skidding or spinning a cue ball affects the path of the cue ball, so you choose one and choose a speed to strike the cue ball in order to achieve position for your next shot. Once you've done this, you've combined both goals into one plan and it's merely a matter of execution." I wholeheartedly agree with you sir. My problem, and possibly for others may be similar, in that their ability to "consider" accurately is in dire need. Both, hand in hand, are prerequisites for high levels of play, I absolutely agree. One being an aiming point for an established line and the second being an expected line and distance of travel after impact. It is to me the latter having greater variability creating the need for a different and separate thought. Once all is considered, then yes it becomes one task. I see in trying to accomplish that task the most difficulty in achieving correct cue ball position. Someone mentioned a common statement being after missing a ball "well at least I got shape", which we've heard many times. Another comment we hear often is "well it ain't gettin' any easier", referencing lack of shape being a downhill slide.
Click to expand...
 
Lately I have been paying more attention to how players lose games (including myself) and from what I can see run outs and losses are almost always attributable to loss of cue ball control. I think I read an article that Joe Tucker wrote saying that if he was to take someone who never picked up a cue before he would teach them cue ball control before potting balls.. But in the end both skills are equal to playing great pool..IMO
 
This thread is bordering on insanity for several reasons. Most of all is that if you are missing the shot, it is impossible to have good cueball control. The cueball will not be coming off at the angle you intended, and the cueball path will be different than you intended.

Unless you are shooting a shot where you are not attempting to pocket a ball.

I knew it was a bad idea to come back here. Discussions like this one lead absolutely nowhere.
 
If you consistently get good shape, you don't need to be a great shot maker. If you rely on shot making, you will often got out of shape to the point where even good shot making won't help.
 
mantis99 said:
If you consistently get good shape, you don't need to be a great shot maker. If you rely on shot making, you will often got out of shape to the point where even good shot making won't help.
Click to expand...

This is the biggest lie I have ever seen on AZBilliards. Watch any match with great position players, Buddy Hall, Efren, Sigel, Souquet, Pagulayan etc.

And you tell me how many times they need to rely on their shotmaking capabilities because they are left with an extremely difficult shot.

And you tell me if they would still win the match if they weren't able to make these extremely difficult shots.
 
This whole conversation boils down to a matter of perspective.

What do you consider to be a difficult shot?

I think us amateurs come to the conclusion really early on that there are certain shots that we just aren't ever going to be able to pocket very well. At this point, we tell ourselves we will be able to avoid these shots because we will control the cue ball really well. At this point, the focus shifts from ball pocketing ability to cue ball control. When you run into these difficult shots, you just sort of shrug your shoulders and think these shots are just too difficult and maybe you say something along the lines of "even the pros miss."

What I've discovered about my game is pushing the absolute limits of my ball pocketing skills has been WAY MORE beneficial than working specifically on cue ball control. From what I've read on AZ I would venture to guess that people tend to work on shots that are more within their comfort zone. For instance, say you are working on a position drill. I think most people would set up a shot were there's an 80% chance to make it, if you were just cinching it. Then they would work all the different positional possibilities off of this type of shot.

I've found I get more enjoyment out of my practice and I test my cueing fundamentals better when I'm just working on difficult pots. Even shots where I probably have less than a 50% chance of making. I feel like I'm truly expanding my ability when I can step to the table and tell myself this here shot I wasn't a favorite to make last year, but this year I'm stealing.

If I absolutely know that I can make a shot, I will figure out a way to get the cue ball where I need to, but if I step up to the table and I'm faced with a shot that I'm unsure of, then all bets are off.
 
ChrisBanks said:
This is the biggest lie I have ever seen on AZBilliards. Watch any match with great position players, Buddy Hall, Efren, Sigel, Souquet, Pagulayan etc.

And you tell me how many times they need to rely on their shotmaking capabilities because they are left with an extremely difficult shot.

And you tell me if they would still win the match if they weren't able to make these extremely difficult shots.
Click to expand...

Players believe this stuff because you don't normally get to see really great shotmaking when you are watching the pros play. They stay inline and play the percentages. But watch them practice for a while and you begin to understand how much better they pocket balls then you do.
 
Here is a video from Max Eberle running 100 balls on a 10' table. If you had ball in hand to set up up each shot, exactly as he played. How many balls can the average D, C, B, A player make? We're discounting shape, just make the ball, so that's why it's BIH to set up the next shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3unVxz8ar8
 
Last edited:
ChrisBanks said:
This is the biggest lie I have ever seen on AZBilliards. Watch any match with great position players, Buddy Hall, Efren, Sigel, Souquet, Pagulayan etc.

And you tell me how many times they need to rely on their shotmaking capabilities because they are left with an extremely difficult shot.

And you tell me if they would still win the match if they weren't able to make these extremely difficult shots.
Click to expand...

I dunno if it's the biggest lie on az, but Chris makes a fair point.

In almost any of the games (but especially 9 and 10b) situations will come up where you must shoot a hard shot and it's through no fault of your own... the opponent's two-way left a difficult cut, they tried a safe but it leaked out, they played a pushout, they froze you to the head rail and hoped you'd choke, they missed a shot but got lucky and left you tough, etc.

Watch any match longer than a few racks of two pros playing, and these difficult shots will come up. Even if the bad position IS your fault, being able to dig yourself out of the hole with a strong shot will probably save your bacon more than getting into a safety battle.

If any of these guys either passed up or missed these commonplace tough shots, they couldn't hang with the other pros.

That being said, I would still encourage any player who is still learning to keep focus on tightening up his position play. Shotmaking to some extent is automatic... you sort of learn it just by sinking a zillion balls. But position requires knowledge and actual practice and effort, you can sink the same zillion balls and walk away with no imrpovement in your ability to e.g. draw.
 
Sometimes missing a shot with the correct CB placement can actually be the difference between winning & losing. And I mean it can get you the Win!

Sometimes making a shot without the correct CB postion means nothing.

It is so much more gratifying if one can do both, pocket balls at a high level of efficiency AND control the cue ball to a high level of accuracy.

One has to strive to do both or one will not get proficient at doing both.

Reagrds &
 
I always believed the better you moved the qball the better a player one would be, Most all decent players can make great shots, if player A is shooting hard shots much more then player B is who do you think would come out on top(that a easy one), Some great player said we all can make the hard shots, but the best players are the ones that never miss the easy shots(pretty sure it was ARCHER who said this), but this is a very good thread and this topic will be argued for as long as pool is around, so i think who ever moves the qball best has the advantage!
 
BasementDweller said:
Players believe this stuff because you don't normally get to see really great shotmaking when you are watching the pros play. They stay inline and play the percentages. But watch them practice for a while and you begin to understand how much better they pocket balls then you do.
Click to expand...

Wait until Bonus Ball starts. Then we will consistently see some truly epic shot making/banking. Not before.
 
You can run the table with no position.
You can't run the table without making a ball.

Accuracy is a great player's foundation...
...with accuracy comes cue ball control.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top