Tip Replacement in office at desk

[wilkamania]

Apologies if this is a long post. I was originally on the search for a break cue however the lovely govt. of Cook County passed a new tax on the purchase of a vehicle from a private party. That threw a $200 wrench in my plans (and thank you everyone for your offers on my other thread).

I figured I'd get a samara break tip and a triangle and practice putting on my own tip. My current break cue is "Bobby Williams" butt with some $30 ebay break shaft.

Here's what I worked with:
- Tweeten Cue top sander ($17)
- Shaver, tip holder, super glue from ebay kit ($20..came with two fake Kamui Black hards and a bunch of other useless BS!)
- Sandpaper of 80 grit, 120 grit, 600 grit
- Last 4ever Dime tip tool: (I love this thing)

The fun begins:

Picture of the triangle on my break dufferin:

Break cue:
Used the cue top sander to face the phenolic tip one piece and glued on samsara.

Here it is while cutting it:

Cutting this thing was hard!

Sanding it down:

now it's flush for the most part...time to shape it:

Finished product:

I'm about to go test this on the work table. The dufferin worked fine and didn't pop off.

ANd this concludes my first and second attempt at self tip repair.

Things to mention:
-I ordered from seyberts yesterday morning, the items got to me this afternoon. I love them

-Responding with "don't worry about it" when numerous workers were asking what I was doing.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Autist]

That is not bad at all for a first timer, good job!

When I wanted to start changing my own tips, I was certain that I needed all the tools you are using. But since I didn't want to spend that much+shipping costs to Europe, I decided to use simple tools.

I use razor knife, different sandpapers, gel superglue and my hands.

I cut the tip off, put a sandpaper on the ground and use the "firemaking" method to level the ferrule top, use tip on sandpaper to even it out, put the tip on without the glue to check if I can see any light between the tip and the ferrule. If not, glue the tip on, then cut off the edges with razor, and all the rest I'll do with sandpapers.

I use 1500 grit in the end to burnish the sides of the tip.

It will take some practice and a lot of patience, but in time you will get very close to the results of a pro tip changer who does his work on a lathe.

Best of luck to you!

 

[bigshooter]

That is not bad at all for a first timer, good job!

When I wanted to start changing my own tips, I was certain that I needed all the tools you are using. But since I didn't want to spend that much+shipping costs to Europe, I decided to use simple tools.

I use razor knife, different sandpapers, gel superglue and my hands.

I cut the tip off, put a sandpaper on the ground and use the "firemaking" method to level the ferrule top, use tip on sandpaper to even it out, put the tip on without the glue to check if I can see any light between the tip and the ferrule. If not, glue the tip on, then cut off the edges with razor, and all the rest I'll do with sandpapers.

I use 1500 grit in the end to burnish the sides of the tip.

It will take some practice and a lot of patience, but in time you will get very close to the results of a pro tip changer who does his work on a lathe.

Best of luck to you!

That's the same method I've used for 25 years. I can do a tip that looks as good as any pro. Tough job with a break tip though. Found that out the hard way.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

tips

That is not bad at all for a first timer, good job!

When I wanted to start changing my own tips, I was certain that I needed all the tools you are using. But since I didn't want to spend that much+shipping costs to Europe, I decided to use simple tools.

I use razor knife, different sandpapers, gel superglue and my hands.

I cut the tip off, put a sandpaper on the ground and use the "firemaking" method to level the ferrule top, use tip on sandpaper to even it out, put the tip on without the glue to check if I can see any light between the tip and the ferrule. If not, glue the tip on, then cut off the edges with razor, and all the rest I'll do with sandpapers.

I use 1500 grit in the end to burnish the sides of the tip.

It will take some practice and a lot of patience, but in time you will get very close to the results of a pro tip changer who does his work on a lathe.

Best of luck to you!

How do you burnish the side of the tip with 1500 grit Sand paper.
I was under the understanding that if you use sand paper you are sanding?

I use leather to burnish
MMike

 

[bigshooter]

How do you burnish the side of the tip with 1500 grit Sand paper.
I was under the understanding that if you use sand paper you are sanding?

I use leather to burnish
MMike

I use a little plastic burnisher I picked up somewhere about 20 years ago.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Looks like you did a fine job for your first one.
I don't want you to think I am putting your job down but it does look like you put a cone on the ferrule of your break cue.

Altho, it may be just the picture. You have to be careful with that pencil sharpener thing you have.

You do have a trash can beside your desk, right?
Put that pencil sharpener thingy in it please. Its only a couple of dollars and
there are many other superior tools than that.

The pencil thingy is good for one thing, and that is to maybe take a mushroom from your tip at the hall.

Porper makes a couple of tools that will trim your tip even with the ferrule without any damage. Or, I should say, at least you can see where the tool happens to be in relation to the ferrule.

So, using a 2 dollar tool may have caused you to have someone replace the ferrule for you at a much greater cost than purchasing a proper tool for the job.

Just a small learning lesson. If its just the pic and I'm wrong, then I appolgize.

LIke I said, it does look like you did a nice job on both.

And welcome to the Dark Side. It always starts like this. Hand tipping your cues, then its one lathe, then two, then buying wood, tooling, jigs etc. Never ending it is, but a great hobby.

Keep up the good work. In time you will feel more comfortable as you do a few more and it will come much easier.

I have a buddy that will be in the bar. If he doesn't like the bar wood, he will bring out his tools and re tip a bar cue just to use for the afternoon.
When he does his own, you absolutely wouldn't know that it wasn't done on a lathe. So it is possible to have great results with just a few simple tools.

And if you want to get serious about it, keep your eyes on the Cue Machinery Forum. Quite frequently, you will see the really expensive Willard Tip Machine come up for sale for a decent price.

One just went for a fraction of the cost of new and even tho I have 4 lathes, I would have snapped that one up out of principle.

 

[wilkamania]

Looks like you did a fine job for your first one.
I don't want you to think I am putting your job down but it does look like you put a cone on the ferrule of your break cue.

Altho, it may be just the picture. You have to be careful with that pencil sharpener thing you have.

You do have a trash can beside your desk, right?
Put that pencil sharpener thingy in it please. Its only a couple of dollars and
there are many other superior tools than that.

The pencil thingy is good for one thing, and that is to maybe take a mushroom from your tip at the hall.

Porper makes a couple of tools that will trim your tip even with the ferrule without any damage. Or, I should say, at least you can see where the tool happens to be in relation to the ferrule.

So, using a 2 dollar tool may have caused you to have someone replace the ferrule for you at a much greater cost than purchasing a proper tool for the job.

Just a small learning lesson. If its just the pic and I'm wrong, then I appolgize.

LIke I said, it does look like you did a nice job on both.

And welcome to the Dark Side. It always starts like this. Hand tipping your cues, then its one lathe, then two, then buying wood, tooling, jigs etc. Never ending it is, but a great hobby.

Keep up the good work. In time you will feel more comfortable as you do a few more and it will come much easier.

I have a buddy that will be in the bar. If he doesn't like the bar wood, he will bring out his tools and re tip a bar cue just to use for the afternoon.
When he does his own, you absolutely wouldn't know that it wasn't done on a lathe. So it is possible to have great results with just a few simple tools.

And if you want to get serious about it, keep your eyes on the Cue Machinery Forum. Quite frequently, you will see the really expensive Willard Tip Machine come up for sale for a decent price.

One just went for a fraction of the cost of new and even tho I have 4 lathes, I would have snapped that one up out of principle.

Thanks for the advice and the help guys!

Since it's a $30 Ebay break shaft, it's moreso my experiment shaft. If and when I have something nicer (say a sledgehammer, BK whatever, etc), I would never do this to the shafts.....yet.

The cone might be from my experiment in hand sanding it......that's right haha. Is it bad? Very, do I care? not so much. I'm not a fan of a 13.5mm-14mm break taper. I play with a 11.75 LD and a 12mm 17" pro tapered shaft.

The dufferin ferrule is the one who received a small chunk of damage, but it was very minor. This phenolic one wasn't touched...but I may have dulled the cheap blade from shaving the Samsara.

Like I said, so far everythings good. It even rolls straight.

I just like using this a "science project" so to speak...while keeping things as cheap as possible.

My next investment would definitely be the porper shaver though. The $80 one.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Truthfully, the Porper Big Shaver doesn't work that well.
You can buy a few other Porper tools for less that work much better.

Hope you can see this video on Tips from Seyberts.

http://www.seyberts.com/products/Deluxe_Tip_Replacement_Kit-984-277.html

Using Porper tools. The Porper Cut Rite will put a cone on your tip if you don't hold the shaft in the hole properly. A serious cone.
The other end of the Cut Rite will put a nickel on the tip perfectly.

If you use it right, its ok. But certainly way better than the pencil sharpener thing. I mean, the pencil thing has a cheap blade on it. How many tips do you think you can trim before its dull. Not many. The Grazer will do a ton before you have to replace the blade.
And the blade is reversible, just flip it over and use the other side when the first one becomes dull. The replacement blades are El Cheapo.

The Mushroom Grazer is a must have. It will basically do for you what the Big Shaver will do only better. If your not 100% on the Big Shaver, it will grab and take too much off the tip at one pass and can damage your ferrule also.

You can use the Porper Little Shaver to trim off the the tip when you first glue it on and the Grazer to do the finer finish detail.
The Little Shaver also works well to take Mushrooms off like the Grazer.

The Porper burnisher works well. Just be careful to not put it on too tight or you will twist the entire tip off. All that hard work down the drain. Otherwise, they do work well. Ya know, if you get a mushroom at the hall and you use the Grazer to take it off, the Burnisher will polish it up for you like a pro. Just be careful with it.

You can also use a sharp butcher knife or a utility knife to initially trim the tip down and them use the Grazer after.
Thats why I said, the Grazer is about the only tool you really need.

See the turn screw at the end of the Grazer? When you put the end of your shaft into the hole, you can adjust the Grazer to just clear your ferrule and only trim the tip. And not your ferrule.



The curved shaper is also a must have. You can get 4" ones that work just the same and will fit in your cue case pocket much better.

But if anything, the next time you go outside, take the Chinese pencil sharpener with you. Stand on the side walk and drop kick that little piece of crap into the traffic. and then wait and watch to make sure that a car runs over it good.

Trust me Bud, I am a professional Doo Dad buyer and have bought all the goodies. What it comes down to is a couple of the good Porper tools.

And those small little tools will all fit into the pocket of your case if you feel like you want to take them to the hall with you.

Another Handy Dandy little tool is a steel mechanics rule. They are approx 6". When you use the Tweeten Cue Top Sander, you can use the rule as a straight edge over top the ferrule to check that its level. About 99 cents at any hardware or auto parts store.

 

[BlindWizard]

Hand tipping beats machine because it provides more feedback about the quality of the leather if done correctly. For example a lot of tweeten tips have defects which can be observed if the overhang trim is accomplished by careful slicing with a sharp utility knife while using a whittling technique. If the leather spreads like an accordion the tip is no good. Most people who trim by hand press the tip crown against a table surface and hack the overhang which tells them nothing about the tip quality. A six sided 14mm socket can be used to center 14mm tips for glueing.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

That doesn't mean anything. Tweeten Elk Masters are famous for doing the accordion. Any one piece tip for that matter, Le Pro or a Triangle.

If its spinning on a lathe and you put a new blade to it, if its going to accordion, it will regardless if on a lathe or you're hand tipping it.

Most people who trim by hand press the tip crown against a table surface and hack the overhang which tells them nothing about the tip quality.

That is the proper way to do it. That is, if you are going to do it without using trimming tools and just a sharp blade. If you do it any other way, you're just asking for it to accordion. If you are suggesting that one should hold the shaft and trim the tip the same way that you would whittle a willow stick, then you are asking the tip to accordion for you.

After doing the initial trim by pressing it into a hard surface, all you have to do to check is wiggle it a bit with your fingers.
If it is going to come apart on you, you'll know it at that point. If its a bad tip, its a bad tip.

I have had the odd laminated tip accordion as well. Very few as in 3, but they can do it also.

Please don't give people misinformation on here as it is hard enuff to learn proper techniques and get it right in the first place. Whittling, my God man. Your shaft is not a willow stick.

 

[JB Cases]

All you need is a box cutter. rubber bands, a file, a piece of leather or canvas or even a coaster or brown paper bag. Glue of course.

Cut the old tip off and scrape off the excess on the ferrrule. Rough op the new tip and clean the back with a touch of water to get the dust off.

Attach the rubber bands to the shaft by looping them through each other. Use as many as you need to get a decently strong pull.

Put a little glue on teh ferrule and a little on the tip. Center the tip and use the rubber bands to hold it on.

Let that sit until the glue is dry.

Trim with the razor blade and then sand tip with the file. Work it until the tip is flush and you have the shape you want.

Burnish with leather or brown paper or canvas, shape and rough up top a little more to desired condition.

If needed use very fine sandpaper to clean up ferrule.

Play and run out.

------------------------

For a homemade lathe you can put a screw into a drill and attach the shaft to that. The manual method works fast and easy though.

I have a tool from Korea that works great though, some call it a U Boat. It makes the ferrule flush, trims the new tip, and then shapes the new tip. But I don't need it with the above manual tools. With a little practice you can do a new tip in about 15 minutes that looks like a brand new cue.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

another tip

Truthfully, the Porper Big Shaver doesn't work that well.
You can buy a few other Porper tools for less that work much better.

Hope you can see this video on Tips from Seyberts.

http://www.seyberts.com/products/Deluxe_Tip_Replacement_Kit-984-277.html

Using Porper tools. The Porper Cut Rite will put a cone on your tip if you don't hold the shaft in the hole properly. A serious cone.
The other end of the Cut Rite will put a nickel on the tip perfectly.

If you use it right, its ok. But certainly way better than the pencil sharpener thing. I mean, the pencil thing has a cheap blade on it. How many tips do you think you can trim before its dull. Not many. The Grazer will do a ton before you have to replace the blade.
And the blade is reversible, just flip it over and use the other side when the first one becomes dull. The replacement blades are El Cheapo.

The Mushroom Grazer is a must have. It will basically do for you what the Big Shaver will do only better. If your not 100% on the Big Shaver, it will grab and take too much off the tip at one pass and can damage your ferrule also.

You can use the Porper Little Shaver to trim off the the tip when you first glue it on and the Grazer to do the finer finish detail.
The Little Shaver also works well to take Mushrooms off like the Grazer.

The Porper burnisher works well. Just be careful to not put it on too tight or you will twist the entire tip off. All that hard work down the drain. Otherwise, they do work well. Ya know, if you get a mushroom at the hall and you use the Grazer to take it off, the Burnisher will polish it up for you like a pro. Just be careful with it.

You can also use a sharp butcher knife or a utility knife to initially trim the tip down and them use the Grazer after.
Thats why I said, the Grazer is about the only tool you really need.

See the turn screw at the end of the Grazer? When you put the end of your shaft into the hole, you can adjust the Grazer to just clear your ferrule and only trim the tip. And not your ferrule.



The curved shaper is also a must have. You can get 4" ones that work just the same and will fit in your cue case pocket much better.

But if anything, the next time you go outside, take the Chinese pencil sharpener with you. Stand on the side walk and drop kick that little piece of crap into the traffic. and then wait and watch to make sure that a car runs over it good.

Trust me Bud, I am a professional Doo Dad buyer and have bought all the goodies. What it comes down to is a couple of the good Porper tools.

And those small little tools will all fit into the pocket of your case if you feel like you want to take them to the hall with you.

Another Handy Dandy little tool is a steel mechanics rule. They are approx 6". When you use the Tweeten Cue Top Sander, you can use the rule as a straight edge over top the ferrule to check that its level. About 99 cents at any hardware or auto parts store.

All good info here. I might add a method i use is to wrap a piece of tape around the ferrule before gluing. Helps keep excess glue off your ferrule

 

[BlindWizard]

That is the proper way to do it. That is, if you are going to do it without using trimming tools and just a sharp blade. If you do it any other way, you're just asking for it to accordion. If you are suggesting that one should hold the shaft and trim the tip the same way that you would whittle a willow stick, then you are asking the tip to accordion for you.

You are right that I'm asking the tip to accordian when I trim the way I do just like you are asking the tip to accordian when you are pressing the side. If the tip is prone to spreading, both you and I want to know that so that we can replace it. I stand by my statement that the overhang should be trimmed by slicing rather than hacking. Even with a great tip hacking the leather is destructive. If you will look very closely at the leather surface while slicing you will find that you can discern a lot more about the quality of the tip than you can by pressing the side.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Doing the job right

I have done tips by hand and by lathe.

Lathe is the only way to go .............................................................

Who can install tips by hand and get this kind of results?
Yes the tip installed at the office is a ok job but does it realy compare to a lathe.

Sorry but my vote is the lathe does a much cleaner and faster job.

And the plastic tip clamp is bs, i wouldnt use that thing on one of my shafts,
way to easy to dent your shaft..... As John Barton said above a wide rubber band with a slip knot around the shaft and the end of the rubber band wrapped over the tip is the best tip clamp............... or do you guys need a picture. :thud:


Here is a example of a shaft that the owner had replace the tips by hand ,
notice how the ferrule is thinner on one side than the other.
Also notice the chalk filled scratches in the ferrule.

To repair this ferrule one wood need to recute the tennon to the shaft.

I am not saying that everyone that does they,re tips by hand will have this problem.

A little common sense will go along ways, if you scratch the ferrule with sand paper, you are in a sense sanding the ferrule. At this point you either live with the scratches which will fill up with chalk and will transfers the chalk to everything it touches , table cloth hands , our clothes, to inside our cue cases.
Or you can try to remove the scratches by sanding and polishing the ferrule.
By doing this you will also need to smooth the ferrule to the shaft.

If you are going to do tips at home or in your office learn how not to scratch the ferrule.
That is the only way to do the job right..............................

MMike

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Mike, I can repair most scratched ferrules but that is the worst ferrule I have ever laid eyes on.

What the heck was going on there? The tenon is most off center.

Wiz, I understand that you have your preferred way of doing tips. But why would you purposely trim a tip by whittling it?
I mean, you can get a good tip and make it accordion using that method.

I can put a shaft in the lathe, use a new blade and from not cutting at the proper angle, going to fast, putting too much pressure on the tip, well, I can assure you that I can make any one layer tip accordion by purposely not doing it proper.

If you get a box of 50, Le Pros, Triangles or Elk Masters, how many bad tips are you going to get from a box anyway? Probably quite a few. The bad ones are going to do whatever they feel like anyway. So why go out of your way to make the good ones mess up on you.

I press the Elks for Duds and believe it or not, seldom will you ever get a pressed Elk to accordion for you. It happens, but very seldom.

Maybe you could buy a Piccone press and press your own. That would pretty much cut down on the Frankie Yankovic ones.

I seriously dislike accordions. Now gimme a little bald headed inbred Appalachian banjo boy to play for me and I can sit on the front porch and whittle me some Triangles all day long.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

amercan made

Mike, I can repair most scratched ferrules but that is the worst ferrule I have ever laid eyes on.

What the heck was going on there? The tenon is most off center. Made in Chinois Land, Yes?

the owner sanded more on one side of the tip ferrule and shaft than the other side. Very common problem for the diy tip replacment.

MMike

 

[Tramp Steamer]

You cannot beat, or duplicate, the results obtained by your friendly neighborhood cue repair person when replacing your tip so why go through the trouble?
For a paltry ten bucks, or so, you can have a LePro, or Triangle, installed in about five minutes, and for a couple of dollars more you can get your shaft cleaned along with it. :smile:

 

[wilkamania]

You cannot beat, or duplicate, the results obtained by your friendly neighborhood cue repair person when replacing your tip so why go through the trouble?
For a paltry ten bucks, or so, you can have a LePro, or Triangle, installed in about five minutes, and for a couple of dollars more you can get your shaft cleaned along with it. :smile:

Definitely agree. I wouldn't do this replacement method to my playing cue on either shaft (one is a westinghouse micarta, the other is an OB Classic Pro).

My test dufferin and my $30 break cue are another story. Money's been tight lately, and the tip guys around here are usually $20 or so.... for single layer tips. When I asked about getting the Samsara installed, someone quoted me $45. The job is done right, but at some point, I'm going to want to do my own stuff and save a couple pennies here and there.

Otherwise thanks for all the info everyone!

 

[BlindWizard]

Blue Hog Rider, I assure you that only defective tips will spread when the overhang is trimmed the way I do it. Careful overhang slicing with a fresh blade and close observation while doing so tells much about the tip's quality including structural integrity and quality of the tanning process. Sometimes tip fibers are straw like and brittle and when I trim sides this defect is noticeable. I purchase different lots by date of LePros and Triangles and find that at times whole boxes are defective but the best tips are wonderful.

 

[BlindWizard]

You cannot beat, or duplicate, the results obtained by your friendly neighborhood cue repair person when replacing your tip so why go through the trouble?
For a paltry ten bucks, or so, you can have a LePro, or Triangle, installed in about five minutes, and for a couple of dollars more you can get your shaft cleaned along with it. :smile:

I've had so many shitty tips installed at local pool halls by people who could care less about quality. The main problem is the use of defective tips. I've never seen a pool hall employee install a tip and then redo the process because of a defect. With good layered tips there is less of a problem but tweeten tips, although inexpensive, vary greatly in quality.

I never clean my shafts because they have acquired a sheen built up over a long period of playing that just feels right.