Why Object Ball Last?

[JoeyInCali]

Mike...It is not really being debated. Fran, it would appear, does not understand the dynamics of the Quiet Eye Study, even though JoeW and Mark have given her significant data and research to back up the "claims" of the studies. Even English came up with the correct info from the study. In fact, they were not 'random' testing, and the skills of the participants were directly related to the data received from the study. Not only that, but a year after the study was done in FL, it was repeated, with all variables being duplicated, at the U. of Quebec, in which they got the exact same results (less pingponging and longer dwell times resulted in better results...pocketing the shots at hand). There is no doubt that this practice results in more confidence and greater pocketing percentages for all skill levels of players, including pros. It is, without doubt, the second most important thing we teach. The fact that you routinely dismiss instructional advice, that has worked wonders for 1000's of players, is one of the reasons why you find it so difficult to improve. You should talk more to your brother. He, at least, is willing to put in the proportionate disciplined practice time, in order to make a rational choice on what works for him (and as a result, has improved dramatically in the past 9 months).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, if you pause the tip on the cueball for two seconds at least , wouldn't looking at the OB on the final stroke be academic ?
That is if your shoulder/salute finish is lined up to the aiming line anyway ?
If that shoulder is on the wrong line, anything else around that is also wrong.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mike...It is not really being debated. Fran, it would appear, does not understand the dynamics of the Quiet Eye Study, even though JoeW and Mark have given her significant data and research to back up the "claims" of the studies. Even English came up with the correct info from the study. In fact, they were not 'random' testing, and the skills of the participants were directly related to the data received from the study. Not only that, but a year after the study was done in FL, it was repeated, with all variables being duplicated, at the U. of Quebec, in which they got the exact same results (less pingponging and longer dwell times resulted in better results...pocketing the shots at hand). There is no doubt that this practice results in more confidence and greater pocketing percentages for all skill levels of players, including pros. It is, without doubt, the second most important thing we teach. The fact that you routinely dismiss instructional advice, that has worked wonders for 1000's of players, is one of the reasons why you find it so difficult to improve. You should talk more to your brother. He, at least, is willing to put in the proportionate disciplined practice time, in order to make a rational choice on what works for him (and as a result, has improved dramatically in the past 9 months).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Bolded part above 'IGNORED' for the betterment of the thread & the forum.

It does not appear to me that Ms Crimi does not understand the study. It apears to me that she merely has some questions as to the parameters of the study especially as it relates to the specifics of pool.

As usual for you Mr. Lee, you distort & word in your own way to give false impressions to suit your own purposes & agenda.

I have a long list of words for people like yourself & if you keep suggesting that I am 'unintelligent' I may have no recourse but to make plain to you how intelligent I can be.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

well, here we go again......


DCP

 

[ENGLISH!]

All was well until Mr. Lee started with his 'styled' insults.

 

[Okie]

All was well until Mr. Lee started with his 'styled' insults.

My friend....it takes two to tango

I read his statement to be less abusive than you took it. But I understand why you took it as you did. I actually thought that ya'll might be letting bygones be bygones.

Let's stay on topic and ya'll can duke it out next time ya see each other.

Or we can just read Mr. Cantrall's and let this one die.

Ken

 

[ENGLISH!]

My friend....it takes two to tango

I read his statement to be less abusive than you took it. But I understand why you took it as you did. I actually thought that ya'll might be letting bygones be bygones.

Let's stay on topic and ya'll can duke it out next time ya see each other.

Or we can just read Mr. Cantrall's and let this one die.

Ken

Ken,

Out of deference to you & all else except Mr. Lee, I would love nothing better than to get back on topic & stay there. The ball is in his court. Let's see what HE does with it. He did not 'insult' only me but Fran Crimi as well.

Best Wishes to You &

 

[JoeW]

if you pause the tip on the cueball for two seconds at least , wouldn't looking at the OB on the final stroke be academic ?
That is if your shoulder/salute finish is lined up to the aiming line anyway ?
If that shoulder is on the wrong line, anything else around that is also wrong.

Let me take a stab at that from the psych perspective.

The brain guides the hand based on what the eye sees and the proprioceptive feedback from the preliminary swings. In the study of just noticeable differences (JND in the literature) it has been found that the brain can (and will) compensate for very small changes in perception. Note the perception is visual and proprioceptive (perception based on muscle activity that helps to locate an object in space among other things)

With sufficient dwell time the brain makes a more accurate assessment of the situation and may or may not need to make minute adjustments even as the stroke is in its final stages.

This is one of the reasons that one should not look up from a shot until after contact has been made.

Having one's shoulder in the correct position serves as an abutment from which the calculations are made. Something like a gun emplacement for large guns: A solid foundation is required for execution but in the case of humans we are continually calculating the different vectors and adjusting as needed. A quiet eye on the target is another (though different) type of abutment.

If the abutments are not stable or sufficient then the result will be inconsistent.

BTW people who can make a shot after looking up are only demonstrating very sound fundamentals that allow them to keep everything perfectly still for that shot. I have never seen, and doubt very much, that anyone could play a whole game looking up before every shot.

 

[Okie]

Ken,

Out of deference to you & all else except Mr. Lee, I would love nothing better to get back on topic & stay there. The ball is in his court. Let's see what HE does with it. He did not 'insult' only me but Fran Crimi as well.

Best Wishes to You &

Thanks boss!

Ken

 

[Okie]

Let me take a stab at that from the psych perspective.

The brain guides the hand based on what the eye sees and the proprioceptive feedback from the preliminary swings. In the study of just noticeable differences (JND in the literature) it has been found that the brain can (and will) compensate for very small changes in perception. Note the perception is visual and proprioceptive (perception based on muscle activity that helps to locate an object in space among other things)

With sufficient dwell time the brain makes a more accurate assessment of the situation and may or may not need to make minute adjustments even as the stroke is in its final stages.

This is one of the reasons that one should not look up from a shot until after contact has been made.

Having one's shoulder in the correct position serves as an abutment from which the calculations are made. Something like a gun emplacement for large guns: A solid foundation is required for execution but in the case of humans we are continually calculating the different vectors and adjusting as needed. A quiet eye on the target is another (though different) type of abutment.

If the abutments are not stable or sufficient then the result will be inconsistent.

BT people who can make a shot after looking up are only demonstrating very sound fundamentals that allow them to keep everything perfectly still for that shot. I have never seen, and doubt very much, that anyone could play a whole game looking up before every shot.

I learned a new word today! It is cool hanging out with smart people!

pro·pri·o·cep·tive
/ˌprōprēəˈseptiv/
Adjective
Relating to stimuli that are produced and perceived within an organism, esp. those connected with the position and movement of the body.

Thanks!

Ken

 

[JoeW]

An example of how proprioceptive feedback and vision coordinate to strike a target is to try touching your nose with your index finger. Notice how your brain guides your hand to your nose making incremental changes in the location the hand as the hand moves towards the nose. It is all very smooth and the changes are difficult to perceive but it give some idea of how this whole system works. Notice that the brain is continually calculating in real time and making adjustments as needed.

The physiology is indeed a thing of beauty and a wonder of nature (we do not really understand it). The nose and the hand can be in movement simultaneously and the target is hit. Humans are truly amazing.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

One thing that i want to add here. Some on here say they have watched a certain player(s) hundreds and even thousands of times and they look at the CB/OB last, whatever the case may be.

Its really hard to tell exactly what a player is looking at last. Sometimes it can be determined, but a great deal of the time it cant.

DCP

 

[scottjen26]

Good topic and often debated with the usual baseball, dart, golf, gun analogies.

For me, I find it most like putting in golf. You are using an object (pool stick, putter) to hit a stationary ball to a target (object ball, hole) from a stationary position. Just as many people advocate looking at the OB last in pool, keeping your head still, etc., most people advocate the same while looking at the golf ball last in golf.

I was a decent golfer (5 handicap) when I first tried a drill where you look up at the hole when putting to work on speed control. When you first do it, you have a lot of doubt about hitting the golf ball square (or at all!), even though you may have hit thousand of putts with a simple pendulum motion. Amazingly, you will often shorten your backstroke and make a more pure accelerating stroke when doing this drill since you are very target focused.

I think the opposite is true in pool. People get over not looking at the CB last very early, and feel like once they are lined up they will hit where they are aiming and want to look at their target. Since you don't have the pure distance control issues in pool as you do with golf (I know, speed matters, but not as critical as on a breaking putt), it's more important to hit where you are aiming to a high degree of accuracy.

I thought I was a cue ball last guy for a long time. However, I found out that I just have a different eye pattern, and basically look at the CB last and move my eyes to the OB at the back of my stroke. Rodney Morris says the same thing in one of his instructional segments, but watching closely he does the same thing. For me, this actually can cause some issues on long shots, since my eyes don't always have time to bounce up to the OB, and it's easy to fidget a little at the CB and without having that strong reference at the OB you'll make a perfect stroke but a little offline.

I can't remember all of the quiet eye stuff, and not sure I feel the need to stare the each point (CB, OB) for that long to be effective, takes me out of rhythm. I do feel that quieting things down at the final set position pause is helpful. I've seen a lot of players bouncing their eyes back and forth during the lining up process, but once done with practice strokes they often pause for a second or more staring at their target (OB or sometimes CB) before shooting. Technically once you are lined up on the shot it shouldn't really matter where you look since a straight stroke will deliver the cue ball as planned regardless, it's just helpful for your eyes to have a target to help keep things from wandering off line.

Scott

 

[gregcantrall]

How to know what players are looking at.

One thing that i want to add here. Some on here say they have watched a certain player(s) hundreds and even thousands of times and they look at the CB/OB last, whatever the case may be.

Its really hard to tell exactly what a player is looking at last. Sometimes it can be determined, but a great deal of the time it cant.

DCP

I concur, it seems presumptuous to make such claims. I would as easily believe they can tell what they are thinking as they strike the ball.

CJ Wiley has given some insight into his aiming process in the Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
He also expects to be able to speak with Johnny Archer and get some input from him as well. Good Stuff!:grin:

 

[Okie]

One thing that i want to add here. Some on here say they have watched a certain player(s) hundreds and even thousands of times and they look at the CB/OB last, whatever the case may be.

Its really hard to tell exactly what a player is looking at last. Sometimes it can be determined, but a great deal of the time it cant.

DCP

I read that in the Mr. Cantrall's thread. Of course that fellow is banned now. lol

You are right though. I have a 78 year old playing partner. I was teaching him about quiet eyes. I didn't give it a name though. He is old school and shuts down when he thinks he is being taught. But anyways....it was very hard to tell where he was looking and I was in his face. I imagine those around us got a real kick out of it.

To his credit...the next day I heard him tell his wife that I had given him a lesson. He has only played once since though. So not sure if I helped or made him quit the game.

Good stuff!

Ken

 

[Okie]

Good topic and often debated with the usual baseball, dart, golf, gun analogies.

For me, I find it most like putting in golf. You are using an object (pool stick, putter) to hit a stationary ball to a target (object ball, hole) from a stationary position. Just as many people advocate looking at the OB last in pool, keeping your head still, etc., most people advocate the same while looking at the golf ball last in golf.

I was a decent golfer (5 handicap) when I first tried a drill where you look up at the hole when putting to work on speed control. When you first do it, you have a lot of doubt about hitting the golf ball square (or at all!), even though you may have hit thousand of putts with a simple pendulum motion. Amazingly, you will often shorten your backstroke and make a more pure accelerating stroke when doing this drill since you are very target focused.

I think the opposite is true in pool. People get over not looking at the CB last very early, and feel like once they are lined up they will hit where they are aiming and want to look at their target. Since you don't have the pure distance control issues in pool as you do with golf (I know, speed matters, but not as critical as on a breaking putt), it's more important to hit where you are aiming to a high degree of accuracy.

I thought I was a cue ball last guy for a long time. However, I found out that I just have a different eye pattern, and basically look at the CB last and move my eyes to the OB at the back of my stroke. Rodney Morris says the same thing in one of his instructional segments, but watching closely he does the same thing. For me, this actually can cause some issues on long shots, since my eyes don't always have time to bounce up to the OB, and it's easy to fidget a little at the CB and without having that strong reference at the OB you'll make a perfect stroke but a little offline.

I can't remember all of the quiet eye stuff, and not sure I feel the need to stare the each point (CB, OB) for that long to be effective, takes me out of rhythm. I do feel that quieting things down at the final set position pause is helpful. I've seen a lot of players bouncing their eyes back and forth during the lining up process, but once done with practice strokes they often pause for a second or more staring at their target (OB or sometimes CB) before shooting. Technically once you are lined up on the shot it shouldn't really matter where you look since a straight stroke will deliver the cue ball as planned regardless, it's just helpful for your eyes to have a target to help keep things from wandering off line.

Scott

This is exactly what CJ is saying in the Mr. Cantrall's thread.

Thanks for the input!

Ken

 

[JoeW]

I just noticed another interesting idea that is somewhat controversial. To keep it unbiased try this exercise first.

Slowly touch your nose with your index finger.

Wait for it









What did you find? I found that my brain prefers to use an arc when moving the hand. Next time I tried moving my index finger in a straight line to my nose. I noticed that my hand wavered along the line. I accomplished the task with accuracy but there was a noticeable difference between the two ways of touching my nose. The arc is (to me) much smoother and the preferred method. I can be equally accurate with either method but the arc simply feels better or more natural.

Perhaps the brain prefers this type of integral calculus for making the necessary adjustment during targeting. It can be forced to work a pump action but a pendulum or arc type swinging motion is "preferred" by my brain.

Well I guess you can see the controversy there. Apparently the pendulum swing is preferred by the brain. Oh my, what are all those snooker players going to say

Then too I have an old brain so maybe the pump is better for some

And finally, touching your nose has nothing to do with pool playing, yeah, right.

 

[FranCrimi]

Bolded part above 'IGNORED' for the betterment of the thread & the forum.

It does not appear to me that Ms Crimi does not understand the study. It apears to me that she merely has some questions as to the parameters of the study especially as it relates to the specifics of pool.

As usual for you Mr. Lee, you distort & word in your own way to give false impressions to suit your own purposes & agenda.

I have a long list of words for people like yourself & if you keep suggesting that I am 'unintelligent' I may have no recourse but to make plain to you how intelligent I can be.

Thank you Rick. You understand where I'm coming from and I appreciate that. As for Scott, I've sort of conditioned myself to disregard his insults. People have told me he can't help it, so I'm inclined to agree. Some battles are not worth fighting.

 

[Okie]

I just noticed another interesting idea that is somewhat controversial. To keep it unbiased try this exercise first.

Slowly touch your nose with your index finger.

Wait for it









What did you find? I found that my brain prefers to use an arc when moving the hand. Next time I tried moving my index finger in a straight line to my nose. I noticed that my hand wavered along the line. I accomplished the task with accuracy but there was a noticeable difference between the two ways of touching my nose. The arc is (to me) much smoother and the preferred method. I can be equally accurate with either method but the arc simply feels better or more natural.

Perhaps the brain prefers this type of integral calculus for making the necessary adjustment during targeting. It can be forced to work a pump action but a pendulum or arc type swinging motion is "preferred" by my brain.

Well I guess you can see the controversy there. Apparently the pendulum swing is preferred by the brain. Oh my, what are all those snooker players going to say

Then too I have an old brain so maybe the pump is better for some

And finally, touching your nose has nothing to do with pool playing, yeah, right.

Nice!

Maybe it has to do with keeping the elbow in place and utilizing the hinge in an effective way?

So ya...pendulum stroke good

Too bad I don't use it....I think lol

Ken

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thank you Rick. You understand where I'm coming from and I appreciate that. As for Scott, I've sort of conditioned myself to disregard his insults. People have told me he can't help it, so I'm inclined to agree. Some battles are not worth fighting.

Fran,

You are more than welcome. Some battles are very much worth fighting & even til death.

Truth - Honor - Dignity, just to name three.

Best Regards & Wishes to You &

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Funny.

I went over to my Gold Crown IV tonight and shot some and broke a few racks. I decided to focus on looking at the OB last. Go through my routine, pull the cue back, pause, and then shift from the CB to the OB as i fire.

Didnt really do too bad, considering i havent played/practiced that much the last ten months or so. Ran one rack, messed up one or two others.

However, dont anybody say i told you so. No way am i changing my mind on this.

Mike