Rules Question

softshot

softshot

Simplify
Silver Member
VNEA/BCA/WPA

8 ball... CB fouls only.. foul on the 8 is BIH... NOT loss of game

legal shot at the 8 ball ....8 ball and cue ball are both heading to pockets.. CB drops shooter bumps 8 ball away from pocket with his cue..

if both the 8 and the CB fall= loss of game

ANY other foul resulting in the 8ball still on the table = BIH for incoming player

sounds like a shitty move enforced by the rules

what is the actual ruling??
 
softshot said:
VNEA/BCA/WPA

8 ball... CB fouls only.. foul on the 8 is BIH... NOT loss of game

legal shot at the 8 ball ....8 ball and cue ball are both heading to pockets.. CB drops shooter bumps 8 ball away from pocket with his cue..

if both the 8 and the CB fall= loss of game

ANY other foul resulting in the 8ball still on the table = BIH for incoming player

sounds like a shitty move enforced by the rules

what is the actual ruling??
Click to expand...

My understanding is if the 8 goes in the game is over!

If it goes in legal, you win. If it goes in illegal, you lose.

Foul on the 8 is an illegal which means you lose
 
Inferno said:
My understanding is if the 8 goes in the game is over!

If it goes in legal, you win. If it goes in illegal, you lose.

Foul on the 8 is an illegal which means you lose
Click to expand...

by "drunken bar roolz".. you are right ... by actual/ tournament /written down rules I'm not so sure.. that's why I asked
 
WPA:

3.8 Losing the Rack
The shooter loses if he
(a) fouls when pocketing the eight ball;
(b) pockets the eight ball before his group is cleared;
(c) pockets the eight ball in an uncalled pocket; or
(d) drives the eight ball off the table.
These do not apply to the break shot. (See 3.3 Break Shot.)

VNEA:

F. LOSS OF GAME

1. Pocketing the 8-ball when it is not the legal object ball except on an opening break.

2. Pocketing the 8-ball on the same stroke as the last of his group of balls.

3. Jumping or knocking the 8-ball off the table at any time.

4. Pocketing the 8-ball in a pocket other than the one designated.

5. Fouling while (pocketing) the 8-ball in the designated pocket.

6. Third infraction of the slow play rule.

7. Pocketing the 8-ball and the cue ball on the break stroke. (This varies, if your league considers an 8-ball break a win.)

8. Not correctly marking the pocket while pocketing the 8-ball.

Note: All infractions above must be called before the next shot is taken. Only the players involved may call an infraction

BCA:

2-10 Loss of Game

You lose the game if:

a. you illegally pocket the 8-ball; (AR p. 97)
b. you jump the 8-ball off the table on any shot other than the break;
c. you pocket the 8-ball on the same shot as the last ball of your group;
d. you violate any General Rule that requires loss of game as a penalty;
e. you pocket the 8-ball on a shot defined as not obvious that you do not call
(Rule 1-16-6 does not apply to 8-Ball);
f. you commit a foul under Rule 1-33-4 or 1-33-7 and the 8-ball falls into a
pocket.
 
softshot said:
by "drunken bar roolz".. you are right ... by actual/ tournament /written down rules I'm not so sure.. that's why I asked
Click to expand...

No, the "understanding" is actually written VERY clearly in the rules.

It's drunken bar roolz that think otherwise.
 
softshot said:
... legal shot at the 8 ball ....8 ball and cue ball are both heading to pockets.. CB drops shooter bumps 8 ball away from pocket with his cue.. ...
Click to expand...
Unsportsmanlike conduct. Ejection from the tournament.

The only way you are allowed to intentionally change the position of balls on the table is by shooting a shot with the cue ball. I assume the "bumps 8 ball away" was intentional. This is true whether you are playing "cue ball fouls only" or not.
 
softshot said:
VNEA/BCA/WPA

8 ball... CB fouls only.. foul on the 8 is BIH... NOT loss of game

legal shot at the 8 ball ....8 ball and cue ball are both heading to pockets.. CB drops shooter bumps 8 ball away from pocket with his cue..

if both the 8 and the CB fall= loss of game

ANY other foul resulting in the 8ball still on the table = BIH for incoming player

sounds like a shitty move enforced by the rules

what is the actual ruling??
Click to expand...


In your opinion did he intentionally stop the 8ball from scratching?
 
If he did it on purpose that's unsportsmanlike conduct, which would result in a loss for the entire match, or at least that game. However when a referee is absent, it's hard to call out something like that. If you are skilled enough though, a ball in hand should allow you to run-out, or at least play a dead safety where you get ball in hand again and run out.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Unsportsmanlike conduct. Ejection from the tournament.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I suspected that was the case.. however, unsportsmanlike conduct is tough to call without a referee.

one says intentional, one says accident..without a neutral third party, 'what actually happened' gets muddy awfully quick.


Bob Jewett said:
The only way you are allowed to intentionally change the position of balls on the table is by shooting a shot with the cue ball. I assume the "bumps 8 ball away" was intentional. This is true whether you are playing "cue ball fouls only" or not.
Click to expand...

which rule addresses this? I'm sure it's there.. I just can't find it

edit:

WPA rule 6.6

"It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct."

but the CB fouls only rule muddies this water quite a bit as well

thanks for your help.
 
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While I agree without a ref it can get a little muddied, unless the shooter is banking the 8 to a pocket right where he is shooting from it is pretty difficult to unintentionally hit the 8 ball if it's traveling to a pocket away from the shooter.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
While I agree without a ref it can get a little muddied, unless the shooter is banking the 8 to a pocket right where he is shooting from it is pretty difficult to unintentionally hit the 8 ball if it's traveling to a pocket away from the shooter.
Click to expand...

the contact was near a side pocket. he tried to beat the scratch by shooting with soft roll and failed the cb dropped almost immediately the 8 had to travel half a table.. he just stuck his arm straight out after standing and bumped the 8 into the point with the tip of his cue..

"said" he was pointing at his drink to the cocktail waitress...sounds pretty weak to me too...
 
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The cue ball foul only rule I think only applies during the shot when you are addressing the cue ball. If someone takes a shot, then whacks his cue into balls, it should be a foul. I don't know where that is written exactly, but my memory is telling me that's the rule. Same rule as when people try to stop the cueball from breaking up a cluster when they foul, people like to grab the cue ball before it stops rolling, should be loss of game, they are trying to prevent a loss by commiting a foul on purpose.

softshot said:
Thank you, I suspected that was the case.. however, unsportsmanlike conduct is tough to call without a referee.

one says intentional, one says accident..without a neutral third party, 'what actually happened' gets muddy awfully quick.




which rule addresses this? I'm sure it's there.. I just can't find it

edit:

WPA rule 6.6

"It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct."

but the CB fouls only rule muddies this water quite a bit as well

thanks for your help.
Click to expand...
 
lol, that's a pretty blatant sportsmanship foul.

How it's "supposed" to work, as I understand it:
You get a ref/TD.
The TD can use whatever tools he wants to make his decision.
Recording, eyewitness testimony, reputation of the parties involved.
Then you go with whatever he decides.

Some people think -
"if the ref didn't see it, it's he-said-she-said, therefore it goes to the shooter".

I don't think it works that way. Or at least it shouldn't. After all, unsportsmanlike conduct can occur at any time so it's not like a bad hit where you can predict the potential foul and then call for someone to watch it. This kind of foul is unpredictable. So practically speaking, it could not be enforced unless the ref has some latitude.

If the people watching the table are honest, the ref will consult them and then rule loss of game.
 
Last month, guy runs down to his last ball and gets hooked, kicked at it, misses and cue is going right at the 8 ball hanging in the side. He grabs the cue ball, which is headed straight for the 8 ,hands it to me and says"foul, ball in hand" with a smerk on his face. I think he should have lost the game ..
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
CreeDo said:
lol, that's a pretty blatant sportsmanship foul.

How it's "supposed" to work, as I understand it:
You get a ref/TD.
The TD can use whatever tools he wants to make his decision.
Recording, eyewitness testimony, reputation of the parties involved.
Then you go with whatever he decides.

Some people think -
"if the ref didn't see it, it's he-said-she-said, therefore it goes to the shooter".

I don't think it works that way. Or at least it shouldn't. After all, unsportsmanlike conduct can occur at any time so it's not like a bad hit where you can predict the potential foul and then call for someone to watch it. This kind of foul is unpredictable. So practically speaking, it could not be enforced unless the ref has some latitude.

If the people watching the table are honest, the ref will consult them and then rule loss of game.
Click to expand...


What if the person he asks give a biased opinion? Now the TD is making his call based on bad information.
 
J-Flo said:
Last month, guy runs down to his last ball and gets hooked, kicked at it, misses and cue is going right at the 8 ball hanging in the side. He grabs the cue ball, which is headed straight for the 8 ,hands it to me and says"foul, ball in hand" with a smerk on his face. I think he should have lost the game ..
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

NICE!! kinda makes you wanna shove the cue ball right thru that smirk I bet
 
A few years ago that guy would have been eating that cue ball. These days, I just sit back and laugh at sh#t like this. At 43, I've had my share of that stuff and now just lay low.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
TheNewSharkster said:
What if the person he asks give a biased opinion? Now the TD is making his call based on bad information.
Click to expand...

Definitely a danger.
But a call must be made, and without seeing it personally, there's no way to guarantee the call will be correct. So the danger is unavoidable.

Unless you want to make a blanket rule like "if the ref didn't see it, it never happened"...
then you have to pick the lesser of two evils:

A: Some calls will be blown because dishonest people give the ref a biased opinion.
B: Some calls will be blown because the ref had his back turned and never saw the shot.

With A:, as long as the majority of people are honest, you should get the correct call usually. And in my experience, most people are honest. If someone makes a bad hit on my team then I'll say so.

With B:, it doesn't matter how many people are honest, if the shooter is dishonest then the correct call doesn't get made.

So in my opinion, A: is the better way of handling it, even though it's imperfect.
 
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