Ball in hand league question

[Shark88]

I play in our local Bar League which consists of 24 teams, I've been shooting for over 25 years in the league now and this is the 1st someone ever tried to call me on this. I realize there are many different league rules out there, this isn't APA or Tap rules. Just simple foul/ball in hand rules.

Last night I had a situation while playing an away match. The play went like this. Break happened and a solid went in, (our rules are still open table till the first legal called shot is made) the player got back up and hit another solid in on the 1st shot after the break and scratches (foul), now I get up with ball and hand and proceed to take solids since there were already 2 down. The other player calls foul on me now because he said he pocketed a solid after the break so those were his balls even though he scratched (fouled) on the shot. Anyone else play similar rules?
I'm sure there are many different views on this.

BTW we couldn't resolve it so we ended up re-racking and I won that game.....

 

[krupa]

I play in our local Bar League which consists of 24 teams, I've been shooting for over 25 years in the league now and this is the 1st someone ever tried to call me on this. I realize there are many different league rules out there, this isn't APA or Tap rules. Just simple foul/ball in hand rules.

Last night I had a situation while playing an away match. The play went like this. Break happened and a solid went in, (our rules are still open table till the first legal called shot is made) the player got back up and hit another solid in on the 1st shot after the break and scratches (foul), now I get up with ball and hand and proceed to take solids since there were already 2 down. The other player calls foul on me now because he said he pocketed a solid after the break so those were his balls even though he scratched (fouled) on the shot. Anyone else play similar rules?
I'm sure there are many different views on this.

BTW we couldn't resolve it so we ended up re-racking and I won that game.....

If he scratched, he did not make a legal shot on the second solid and the table is still open. Where's the grey area here!?

 

[Houstoer]

agree; should be open table to you.

 

[Rio19]

Without a doubt in every rule situation I can think of, if he scratched on the solid after the break it is not a legal shot which means open table to you with ball in hand.

 

[BullBuchanan]

agree; should be open table to you.

Quoted for truth. When playing that the table is still open after the break, the table remains open until a legal called shot is sunk. Any time a foul is committed it is not a legal shot, hence scratching while making the 8-ball being a product of the base rules.

 

[ctyhntr]

JMO, I think the majority of differences in league rules stems from the practicality of playing on coin-op tables.

 

[CreeDo]

No gray area, one player knows the rules and the other doesn't. He's used to bar rules, or APA... you take what you make. That's one of the dangers of playing on bar tables and in bars... you're going to go against guys who don't know the rules and will argue about them all day.

To be fair, are you SURE your rules are "open after the break"? Is that spelled out anywhere, was there ever a meeting where someone in charge specified? It could be you've been making an assumption all this time and opponents either didn't notice or didn't care.

 

[WhatRobEats]

Agreed with majority opinion if he scratched that is not a legally made shot that's jut a ball that went in a hole.

 

[Maniac]

I play in our local Bar League which consists of 24 teams, I've been shooting for over 25 years in the league now and this is the 1st someone ever tried to call me on this. I realize there are many different league rules out there, this isn't APA or Tap rules. Just simple foul/ball in hand rules.

Last night I had a situation while playing an away match. The play went like this. Break happened and a solid went in, (our rules are still open table till the first legal called shot is made) the player got back up and hit another solid in on the 1st shot after the break and scratches (foul), now I get up with ball and hand and proceed to take solids since there were already 2 down. The other player calls foul on me now because he said he pocketed a solid after the break so those were his balls even though he scratched (fouled) on the shot. Anyone else play similar rules?
I'm sure there are many different views on this.

BTW we couldn't resolve it so we ended up re-racking and I won that game.....

Go to your nearest drugstore and buy a small tube of KY jelly to keep in your case for when you have to play these types of people. I mean, if you're gonna get screwed, why not make things easier?

And to think I've actually seen people on here defending bar rules !!!

Maniac (quickly tires of the "rules police")

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

JMO, I think the majority of differences in league rules stems from the practicality of playing on coin-op tables.

Not just the difference between rule sets, but to an extent the 8 ball rules generally are a concession to coin op tables at least in leagues where the match is played on a point basis, such as perhaps the BCAPL. For example, I'm at the table and need one more ball to win the round for my team. I make a ball but scratch. Even though I committed a foul, the point counts and we win the round. So essentially we win the round on a shot in which I fouled. Note that it doesn't have to be the round winning shot. A team might make a ball and scratch three times during a round and win the round by 1 or 2 points.

 

[danomano]

FYI - according to TAP league rules, if you scratch on the first shot (open after the break) and pocket your intended ball, you are that ball type.

Just for all the guys out there who were saying under no rules or circumstances could the fould called be correct. Stupid rule - but a rule none the less.

 

[poolguy4u]

I play in our local Bar League which consists of 24 teams, I've been shooting for over 25 years in the league now and this is the 1st someone ever tried to call me on this. I realize there are many different league rules out there, this isn't APA or Tap rules. Just simple foul/ball in hand rules.

Last night I had a situation while playing an away match. The play went like this. Break happened and a solid went in, (our rules are still open table till the first legal called shot is made) the player got back up and hit another solid in on the 1st shot after the break and scratches (foul), now I get up with ball and hand and proceed to take solids since there were already 2 down. The other player calls foul on me now because he said he pocketed a solid after the break so those were his balls even though he scratched (fouled) on the shot. Anyone else play similar rules?
I'm sure there are many different views on this.

BTW we couldn't resolve it so we ended up re-racking and I won that game.....

:thumbup:

Welcome to the land of Tap League...growing by leaps and bound every year. You need to get out more. Tap League is taking over around your area.

For now on, just call Kelly or Rich for any questions about rules.

Have your opponents handicap checked too. He may be a sandbagger.

:rotflmao1:


If your opponent knew you were shooting a low ball and didn't tell you, that was bad sportsmanship. :angry:

Now after shooting for 25 years, sounds like your experience is very limited to just playing for fun. By now you should know...just because 2 solids are already in, doesn't mean it would be the best choice of balls to take. LOL...but that's a whole new can of worms.

 

[Shark88]

:thumbup:

.

:rotflmao1:


If your opponent knew you were shooting a low ball and didn't tell you, that was bad sportsmanship. :angry:

Now after shooting for 25 years, sounds like your experience is very limited to just playing for fun. By now you should know...just because 2 solids are already in, doesn't mean it would be the best choice of balls to take. LOL...but that's a whole new can of worms.

The funny part is when I picked up the cue I stated "open table" before I shot. He said he didn't hear me, probably becaused he was pissed that he scratched and was walking away from the table and the noise of the bar and the jukebox playing. And in this case the way the table layed the solids were a pretty easy run out at that point
I've played in the APA for a couple years but got tired of the long nights and people sandbagging and nothing being done about it. I was a 7 in that league. I've won many games there because of the slop pool rules where I didn't have a shot and just whacked at something and it went in, so I play whatever rules allow. I've played in the Super Billiards expo in Philly PA a couple years and made it through a few rounds but never made the $$. One of my very good friends that I went with year after year passed away some time ago and I haven't gone back since, it's not the same anymore. Work & family take up most of my time now..

 

[Gogafem]

You can only choose a ball set by pocketing a ball legally - called shot and no foul. So the table was still open and he was wrong.

 

[poolguy4u]

You can only choose a ball set by pocketing a ball legally - called shot and no foul. So the table was still open and he was wrong.

Keystone Tap League Rules are confusing people and it is spreading like wild fire----------------------------------->


Continuing Play After the Break
If the player pockets a ball on the break, that player continues to shoot until he/she misses or commits a foul. Regardless of which category of balls is made (“low balls” or “high balls”), the table remains “open” until a shooter has completed a skill shot by calling a ball in an assigned pocket. Once this has been accomplished, that category of balls belongs to that shooter for the remainder of the game and the remaining category of balls belongs to the opponent. Combination shots can begin with either category of balls on an open table with the exception of the 8-Ball, which is never neutral. In an open table situation, if a legal hit is made, the called ball goes in the called pocket and the cue ball scratches or is driven off the table, the shooter is now that category of balls. The table is no longer open. To execute a legal hit in an open table situation, you must strike any ball on the table except the 8-Ball and drive some ball to a rail or pocket a ball.:sorry:

 

[hang-the-9]

Keystone Tap League Rules are confusing people and it is spreading like wild fire----------------------------------->


Continuing Play After the Break
If the player pockets a ball on the break, that player continues to shoot until he/she misses or commits a foul. Regardless of which category of balls is made (“low balls” or “high balls”), the table remains “open” until a shooter has completed a skill shot by calling a ball in an assigned pocket. Once this has been accomplished, that category of balls belongs to that shooter for the remainder of the game and the remaining category of balls belongs to the opponent. Combination shots can begin with either category of balls on an open table with the exception of the 8-Ball, which is never neutral. In an open table situation, if a legal hit is made, the called ball goes in the called pocket and the cue ball scratches or is driven off the table, the shooter is now that category of balls. The table is no longer open. To execute a legal hit in an open table situation, you must strike any ball on the table except the 8-Ball and drive some ball to a rail or pocket a ball.:sorry:

But he said they were not playing by APA nor TAP rules. If they played by more or less regular 8 ball rules, a shot made while scratching is not a shot "made". The issue is that some people do not know the proper rules, just what they heard from some guy who knew some guy that played once against Buddy Hall's former dog walker.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Yes, ball should be spotted!

Not just the difference between rule sets, but to an extent the 8 ball rules generally are a concession to coin op tables at least in leagues where the match is played on a point basis, such as perhaps the BCAPL. For example, I'm at the table and need one more ball to win the round for my team. I make a ball but scratch. Even though I committed a foul, the point counts and we win the round. So essentially we win the round on a shot in which I fouled. Note that it doesn't have to be the round winning shot. A team might make a ball and scratch three times during a round and win the round by 1 or 2 points.

I totally agree! I became aware of this rule problem over thirty years ago in a team tournament in Wisconsin. I was playing the final game of the event for the championship. My opponent needed to pocket just one ball to win the title. I played a nice safety behind one of my group, thinking he'd kick and I'd likely get BIH to win the match and the title. But my opponent simply played the illegal combo and sunk his ball for the title. Really disappointing for almost everyone involved.

In leagues that I've run, we always changed that rule to: any balls illegally pocketed or knocked off the table are re-spotted.

 

[Softballmvp]

I totally agree! I became aware of this rule problem over thirty years ago in a team tournament in Wisconsin. I was playing the final game of the event for the championship. My opponent needed to pocket just one ball to win the title. I played a nice safety behind one of my group, thinking he'd kick and I'd likely get BIH to win the match and the title. But my opponent simply played the illegal combo and sunk his ball for the title. Really disappointing for almost everyone involved.

In leagues that I've run, we always changed that rule to: any balls illegally pocketed or knocked off the table are re-spotted.

In the Iowa VNEA state tourney, you cannot win this way. If your clinching ball is made illegally it gets respotted. This was changed in the last couple years. You could still pocket a ball illegally for other balls in the game, just not the clinching one. Do not know if this is their national rule or not.

 

[pt109]

Keystone Tap League Rules are confusing people and it is spreading like wild fire----------------------------------->

In an open table situation, if a legal hit is made, the called ball goes in the called pocket and the cue ball scratches or is driven off the table, the shooter is now that category of balls. The table is no longer open. To execute a legal hit in an open table situation, you must strike any ball on the table except the 8-Ball and drive some ball to a rail or pocket a ball.:sorry:

So, a player can make an illegal shot and still determine which group of balls
they get to play?
The person who wrote that rule should have their crayons taken away....
...at least until they complete grade 3.

 

[krupa]

I notice a glaring problem in your story, while all the others have missed it. Their minds are not tuned into the game like mine is. Follow what I say and you will go far.

You have been playing this game for 25 years, yet you selected the solid grouping simply because there were "already 2 down." This level of ignorance is what I work to remove from our sacred game.

The correct answer is to select the grouping that yields the greatest odds of winning the game. If someone has played this game for 25 years and has still not yet come to this conclusion, what does that say for ourselves? How could this happen?

I have an idea why.

Teach us sensei!
:bow-down: