John Burton Sour Grapes...Really!!!

[classiccues]

I have no skin in this game at all, as I will never be able to afford a custom case from either incredible case maker. I was just curious, are you insinuating that he (mr. Justis) couldn't have his interior made in the good ol USA or use leather from here? I would say it is important, but when foreign cars are more American built than American cars are I no longer know what it is to be an American product.

I have no idea if they could be made here or not. I know nothing of the fabric / construction to know if it could be made here, or offered here, or whatever. Point is Jack constructs the case in Florida.

But I agree with your point on cars, sometimes the dividing line is not as clear as you would like. But IMHO if the car is made in the US, its a US made car, however the components of the car could have comes from all the corners of the world.

JV

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Mike and I have an understanding and so far I feel that I am living up to it.

It may frustrate you that you cannot get rid of me and that your friend Dave Wilson can't get rid of me.

John, your inability to maintain is the problem. You think you have a privilege that grants you powers outside the ability of every other poster on AZB.

I beg to differ about your "water under the bridge" statement. Maybe to you, but not to anyone else.

Now, to address the above statements, Mike allowed you back. This is true.
If at anytime you think you're bullet proof...say so.

If you think I have some allegiance with anyone, a conspiracy to remove you..you're wrong. Everything that got you banned in the past still stands and the very same reasons are likely to be what gets you removed again.

Keep calling me out like this if you don't believe it.

 

[jmizzo]

Im a nobody

I recently put the Jack Justis AZ 2012 case of the year I own up for sale. John Barton gave me a nice green rep for it today...go figure!!! Below is his comment: :deadhorse:



F/S AZ 2012 Jack Justis... 02-02-2013 03:12 AM JB Cases Way to parlay the "win". Next year if people ask their friends and family to vote I predict that a Chinese case will win by an amazingly huge margin.


Wedge

I read the whole thread, and in my last post I explained that I have no skin the game, I can not afford a case from either case maker. Your case is stunning, absolutely beautiful.

That being said, I think that you deliberately posted this to make it look like a comment in the thread and not a private message. Its pretty ballsy to post a private message and titling it "Sour Grapes." I would say that describes this thread as well. You are posting a private message, making it public. That sounds like "Sour Grapes" as well.

If you did campaign for votes, than that in my opinion "Sours" the whole contest, and then to turn around and try to artificially inflate the price to make money on the title seems a little shady to me.

I dont personally know anyone involved. I am a user of the site, who absolutely loves the wealth of information that we all share (wedge and JB included.) I do though, as a person not involved with the "top tier guys on AZ", get sick of seeing these type of threads all the time. When I first came here is was a great place to learn and feel like part of a community, now its a ton of personal attacks and bullshit.

Lets get back to a community, and not just a place to complain, *****, and attack people.

 

[classiccues]

See above. Fact is John, Jack is buying from a sub-supplier. You control who makes your cases. Very different. I know nothing of Jacks supplier, I do know that if Jack went their and saw kids in the shop, the supplier wouldn't be supplying Jack anymore case interiors.

BTW GM doesn't say the altenator wires are made in China, or the headlight assembly made in Taiwan. WTF?!?!? What about the cuemaker who's spindle bearings are made in China, should he claim foreign manufacturing help?

Those workers are as much a part of Jacks team as the guy who offs the steers for the leather. Maybe the guy at the bank who cashes the checks are also part of his team, or the guy that made the lightbulb over his table. These people have nothing to do with Jack's cases, what a stupid comment to make.

Why don't I include your shrink as part of your team?

JV

Yes in fact you can help where the raw materials come from. Jack could certainly buy tubes from a USA based extrude and have the interiors made in the USA as well. The embroidered bags that he delivers in could be made in the USA as well.

He makes it a point to tell everyone that his leather is USA steerhide but fails to disclose that the actual case part, the interior is Chinese. I don't understand why that is.

And this does bring up another point. You always harp about the fact that I have workers. Well why don't you include the workers who make Jack's interiors as part of his team as well? You never say that he employs children or exploits the Chinese worker even though he is buying fully made interiors and bags from China. Why is that Joe?

 

[classiccues]

When one runs out of something useful to say and starts with the name calling, He has lost the battle. :smile:

I am sorry, when a guy comes in and rants on a thread and reads things that aren't there, and decides to go after his competition based off of words that are in praise of that competition, sometimes I just can't find enough good words to get that point across.

JV

 

[classiccues]

No its not. Its about your harrassment of another forum member. You didn't start this thread. AGAIN you're lying and twisting the truth of the matter. Wedge started this thread because of you harrassing him, you should be banned for that alone. You want your own thread regarding Wedge and his solicitation, go start one. THIS IS A FACT, so go ahead lets see you get out of this one.

Maybe you should learn to use facts once in a while.

But again, as I have stated time and time again, you had to make the thread about you and your cases.

JV

Again this thread isn't about praising Jack's work.

It's about Wedge's voter drive and how I feel about it.

I know it's your opinion Joe. Do I need to go back and quote where you tried to say it's "fact"?

Because you did, you said it is undisputed. Well even that isn't true as I and others disputed it.

I am totally fine Joe. You had no reason to be here other than to snipe at me and justify Wedge's poor behavior.

Both of which you did on cue and predictably. You also managed to get in the mandatory China-knock. So all in all you get a gold star for effort. The content is still not good enough to win the debate but you keep trying and one day you will learn how to use actual facts to make your points.

Here is another pretty case for you that I could have submitted to the poll.

Guess who owns it?

 

[classiccues]

well i guess u ant getting the point either.....lets get to the basics....john barton lives in china....he produces cases out of china....even if he moved to the usa and made cases in the usa...u would still be up his ass...why???? why??? thats what i dont understand....
the man makes great cases...he is the most recognised world-wide.....n why are u saying these bad things about him??? why?

We have a history that you won't understand. It probably started when you were still in 5th grade.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

John, your inability to maintain is the problem. You think you have a privilege that grants you powers outside the ability of every other poster on AZB.

I beg to differ about your "water under the bridge" statement. Maybe to you, but not to anyone else.

Now, to address the above statements, Mike allowed you back. This is true.
If at anytime you think you're bullet proof...say so.

If you think I have some allegiance with anyone, a conspiracy to remove you..you're wrong. Everything that got you banned in the past still stands and the very same reasons are likely to be what gets you removed again.

Keep calling me out like this if you don't believe it.

As I have told you if I do something that is against the rules then ban me. I have done no such thing at all.

Joe Van Buren however has broken several rules in this thread alone.

You allow Joe and others to harass me and call me names, such as Eric in another thread and Joe in this thread and you have allowed it since I have been back.

I think I have no such privileges. In fact I do feel that you are looking for any possible excuse to ban me. I could be wrong and if I am then you have my sincere apologies. But your actions and tone say otherwise.

And since you don't think it's water under the bridge then I want to say clearly that it is my sincere opinion that you allowing others to instigate me is what resulted in things escalating to the point where I finally went off on someone and got banned. That said I fully take responsibility for saying something that broke the rules and putting myself in a position to be banned. That won't happen again ever.

You say I am calling you out and I think that I am telling the truth. You have made a public statement that you did not agree with Mike about letting me back on. Fair enough but that is a clear indication of where you stand in my opinion.

And no I don't think that you and Joe are in a conspiracy and sorry if I gave you that impression. What I said which I stand by 100% is that Joe appears to have the unfettered right to harass me and call me names, defame me and make disparaging remarks about me and my business with no fear of being censured by you. The proof is part of the record Dave. I am sorry but when you see it happening and you do nothing then the message to Joe and the rest of the forum is that he is above the rules.

I have been doing my best to stay civil in the face of these attacks and I think it's becoming a habit for me to meet their aggression with civility. But I would certainly prefer if you would enforce the rules on the attackers once in a while so that I wouldn't have to deal with the name calling and defamation at all.

 

[JB Cases]

No its not. Its about your harrassment of another forum member. You didn't start this thread. AGAIN you're lying and twisting the truth of the matter. Wedge started this thread because of you harrassing him, you should be banned for that alone. You want your own thread regarding Wedge and his solicitation, go start one. THIS IS A FACT, so go ahead lets see you get out of this one.

Maybe you should learn to use facts once in a while.

But again, as I have stated time and time again, you had to make the thread about you and your cases.

JV

A positive rep with an attached congratulatory note with a touch of snarkiness is harassment? Come on Joe you can do better than that.

And no Joe, Wedge made it about me and you tag-teamed with him to make it more about me with your accusations of jealousy and speculations that I was upset because the one JB Case in the poll didn't win.

How about you stand up and atone for your rules-violations and volunteer for a ban since you are so fond of calling for me to be banned? Just count the ones in this thread alone and ask for the amount of time off that you think that they are worth.

 

[classiccues]

I disagree emphatically. You did not start this thread, Wedge did. These are your words... It's about Wedge's voter drive and how I feel about it.

Sorry John it is NOT that. Wedge started it based on your comments to him. Comments, harrassment whatever, After he complained it seems you did it again. So yes, that is harrassment.

BTW if Dave thinks I stepped over the line I am sure I'll get a warning.

JV

A positive rep with an attached congratulatory note with a touch of snarkiness is harassment? Come on Joe you can do better than that.

And no Joe, Wedge made it about me and you tag-teamed with him to make it more about me with your accusations of jealousy and speculations that I was upset because the one JB Case in the poll didn't win.

How about you stand up and atone for your rules-violations and volunteer for a ban since you are so fond of calling for me to be banned? Just count the ones in this thread alone and ask for the amount of time off that you think that they are worth.

 

[JB Cases]

See above. Fact is John, Jack is buying from a sub-supplier. You control who makes your cases. Very different. I know nothing of Jacks supplier, I do know that if Jack went their and saw kids in the shop, the supplier wouldn't be supplying Jack anymore case interiors.

I understand that. However Jack chooses to highlight where SOME of his material comes from such as the leather. Presumably he believes that this means something to the consumer to know that the leather is from USA steers. But yet it's not important to him to inform the customer that the interior is from China? Just seems like an odd decision to me since the interior IS the case. Without the rigid tubing and the fabric then all yo have is a nice hollow leather bag. I don't think that those would sell very well in that form as a cue case.

Regarding the kids nice try to deflect the question. The question was WHY don't you ever make remarks about Jack's use of Chinese workers? You make them about my shop all the time. Why do you give Jack a pass?

Earlier you called him King of the Mountain and the best custom case maker so is it safe to assume that you are ok with him outsourcing the production of the interior and the dust covers to China?

BTW GM doesn't say the altenator wires are made in China, or the headlight assembly made in Taiwan. WTF?!?!? What about the cuemaker who's spindle bearings are made in China, should he claim foreign manufacturing help?

Well actually they do list where the parts come from. The FTC has a law that governs the labeling and disclosure of where the parts come from. If a product is over a certain percentage of parts that were manufactured outside the USA then that has to be disclosed. I don't know the exact percentage without looking it up but to me the interior is at least 50% of what makes a pool cue case.

Those workers are as much a part of Jacks team as the guy who offs the steers for the leather.

Not exactly. The leather comes to Jack as a finished sheet that he has to then invest a lot of work into working it.

The interior on the other hand is a fully assembled part that several people had to build and which Jack just drops into the leather sheath he made. If Jack had to hire people to make his interiors he would need one seamstress and probably at least one person to cut and process the tubing. These are jobs he could give to Americans but he chooses to give them to Chinese workers. And you give him a free pass on it while chastising me.

Maybe the guy at the bank who cashes the checks are also part of his team, or the guy that made the lightbulb over his table. These people have nothing to do with Jack's cases, what a stupid comment to make.

See above. The interior is the foundation of the case and without it there is, in fact, nothing that anyone would want to buy to hold their cues.

Or let's ask everyone. Would you all want to buy a flimsy leather bag with no dividers?

 

[rjb1168]

Joe,
I think John is right, you should Ban yourself for a week. :grin:
Wedge,you should ban yourself for a day, just for starting this. :grin:
John, you should ban yourself for a day for pickin on Joe. :grin:

:rotflmao1:

 

[lenoxmjs]

King and Melton

I would be proud to own any of the cases in the case of the year thread. All of them are admirable and stand on their own individual merits and features. I find some to be incredibly artistic and involved but not really practical for daily use (Eastwood)and others to be practical with great features and incredible personalization (Jamies). Some are incredibally Classic (Justis). Others stand out for the quality of the leather and the tooling(Melton) and the rest are just unique and beautiful in their overall execution.

IMO Wedge was wrong to solicite votes and John was more wrong to involve himself . By doing so people naturally are going to assume poor looser syndrome and like I said every case there is a winner!

JMO,
Matt

Proud that my Melton and especially the King held their own against this outstanding field of cases.

 

[JB Cases]

I disagree emphatically. You did not start this thread, Wedge did. These are your words... It's about Wedge's voter drive and how I feel about it.

Sorry John it is NOT that. Wedge started it based on your comments to him. Comments, harrassment whatever, After he complained it seems you did it again. So yes, that is harrassment.

BTW if Dave thinks I stepped over the line I am sure I'll get a warning.

JV

Then Wedge is harassing ME for making an reference to something unethical that HE did.

I am sorry but I am certainly allowed to make the comment I did. In that comment I did not accuse him of anything.

Let's break it down, this is the actual quote:

Way to parlay the "win". Next year if people ask their friends and family to vote I predict that a Chinese case will win by an amazingly huge margin.

Way to parlay the "win". - in other words, as you suggested, simply saying well played.

Next year if people ask their friends and family to vote I predict that a Chinese case will win by an amazingly huge margin. - a simple prediction based on the fact that Chinese people have a lot of connections. No accusation, no harassment. Just a simple statement.

Now ask yourself Joe why Wedge felt compelled to make this public? Could it be that he is feeling uneasy about the way it all went down and wanted to be the one who made it public? I don't know but the fact is that he chose to attack me for a statement that is ambiguous at best and only has meaning if one is actually feeling some hesitation about the way he went about things.

You can call it harassment but I call it a friendly notice that perhaps he shouldn't brag all too much about the victory.

But by making it about me instead of himself he is actually harassing me over an incident that is entirely of his own doing. Frankly if he had campaigned in the open, made a thread and said vote for me then it would been open season for everyone to jump in and do the same thing.

But I think most of us didn't see it as something where we should solicit votes and I think that people were talking about it between themselves long before I got wind of it, which was also after the voting was over IIRC.

So not surprisingly you want to interpret this as harassment but in fact anyone can see that Wedge is lucky that all that happened was a friendly nudge. It would have been well within my right to declare the contest void due to Wedge's actions and I may just do that anyway due to his actions today.

Then he can still say he got the most votes but in the thread I will link to this one and explain my decision. I will sleep on this and decide in the morning.

 

[8balljohn]

I agree with a post Baxter made earlier. I think it's a bit silly to post others private messages on here. I don't know. Just my 2 cents. Hopefully whatever the dispute is over can get resolved :smile2:

 

[JB Cases]

I would be proud to own any of the cases in the case of the year thread. All of them are admirable and stand on their own individual merits and features. I find some to be incredibly artistic and involved but not really practical for daily use (Eastwood)and others to be practical with great features and incredible personalization (Jamies). Some are incredibally Classic (Justis). Others stand out for the quality of the leather and the tooling(Melton) and the rest are just unique and beautiful in their overall execution.

IMO Wedge was wrong to solicite votes and John was more wrong to involve himself . By doing so people naturally are going to assume poor looser syndrome and like I said every case there is a winner!

JMO,
Matt

Proud that my Melton and especially the King held their own against this outstanding field of cases.

Well, perhaps that was Wedge's intention to paint this as the actions of a poor loser but that is the farthest from the truth as it could possibly be.

When I really WANT to win one of these contests then I will put up some cases that are without a doubt contenders in every way.

What upsets me is that we can never know now what the poll would have been like without the extra campaigning. Maybe Jive's case would have won or one of Phil's or one of yours or even Wedge's. What fun it would have been to see a very tight race with people genuinely thinking about their choices instead of voting along loyalty lines.

Oh well. You take a shot and sometimes it works out and sometimes not. At least NOW I think I understand where some of the negativity came from when the poll was happening and shortly afterward.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

As I have told you if I do something that is against the rules then ban me. I have done no such thing at all.

Joe Van Buren however has broken several rules in this thread alone.

You allow Joe and others to harass me and call me names, such as Eric in another thread and Joe in this thread and you have allowed it since I have been back.

I think I have no such privileges. In fact I do feel that you are looking for any possible excuse to ban me. I could be wrong and if I am then you have my sincere apologies. But your actions and tone say otherwise.

And since you don't think it's water under the bridge then I want to say clearly that it is my sincere opinion that you allowing others to instigate me is what resulted in things escalating to the point where I finally went off on someone and got banned. That said I fully take responsibility for saying something that broke the rules and putting myself in a position to be banned. That won't happen again ever.

You say I am calling you out and I think that I am telling the truth. You have made a public statement that you did not agree with Mike about letting me back on. Fair enough but that is a clear indication of where you stand in my opinion.

And no I don't think that you and Joe are in a conspiracy and sorry if I gave you that impression. What I said which I stand by 100% is that Joe appears to have the unfettered right to harass me and call me names, defame me and make disparaging remarks about me and my business with no fear of being censured by you. The proof is part of the record Dave. I am sorry but when you see it happening and you do nothing then the message to Joe and the rest of the forum is that he is above the rules.

I have been doing my best to stay civil in the face of these attacks and I think it's becoming a habit for me to meet their aggression with civility. But I would certainly prefer if you would enforce the rules on the attackers once in a while so that I wouldn't have to deal with the name calling and defamation at all.

How many special circumstance rules should we create to accommodate you? You opt to engage everyone that has *anything* to say regarding you. At that point, everything is an escalation.

Do you feel you rate protection from the entire community's opinion..unless you approve?
I don't. I know first hand and from years of experience in dealing with you that you lack the simple ability to shut up.
Can't do it. Hard wired into your brain and you'll have an embolism if you couldn't have the very last word on *anything*.

In person, you might be different. Online, you're just another keyboard commando. You believe you are beyond any reproach on any topic.

That record stands for itself. Anyone who remembers or cares can chime in about RSB, AZB, BD, IP....how many other forums? The behavior and reasons you have detractors across the board is because of YOUR behavior...not moderation.

I stand by my words. You should never have been allowed back.
That is based on the long standing forum rules and then when applied to yourself...they aren't good enough.

Mike saw fit to make some exception. I wonder if he's ever regretted doing so. This cloud of animosity that follows you wherever you go has got to give him headaches.

Why are you worth it where others are banned permanently?

 

[classiccues]

I understand that. However Jack chooses to highlight where SOME of his material comes from such as the leather. Presumably he believes that this means something to the consumer to know that the leather is from USA steers. But yet it's not important to him to inform the customer that the interior is from China? Just seems like an odd decision to me since the interior IS the case. Without the rigid tubing and the fabric then all yo have is a nice hollow leather bag. I don't think that those would sell very well in that form as a cue case.

IMHO his interior was changed to lighten his case, over the tubes. Now regardless of my opinion, but Justis cases are appreciated equally for the look as well as the protection.

Regarding the kids nice try to deflect the question. The question was WHY don't you ever make remarks about Jack's use of Chinese workers? You make them about my shop all the time. Why do you give Jack a pass?.

Because he is buying a sub-supplied part. He isn't paying Chinese workers directly. Again its a part of the whole package and he has said his cases come from there and quite frankly I am failing to see an issue. Now if he was getting the entre case made in China and popping them up on a table and not being forth coming of the origin, yes my opinion would greatly change.

Earlier you called him King of the Mountain and the best custom case maker so is it safe to assume that you are ok with him outsourcing the production of the interior and the dust covers to China?.
.

The case is assembled in the US. If he wants to use parts from other sources that is his choice. His dust cover, really? What if his metal parts were made over seas? What if out of all those other casemakers they also bought parts overseas, who cares? There are somethings you cannot avoid. I cannot avoid Chinese made roofing nails, Lord knows I have tried.

Well actually they do list where the parts come from. The FTC has a law that governs the labeling and disclosure of where the parts come from. If a product is over a certain percentage of parts that were manufactured outside the USA then that has to be disclosed. I don't know the exact percentage without looking it up but to me the interior is at least 50% of what makes a pool cue case..

But its not in their advertising. A car has a million parts, your cases, not so much.

The interior on the other hand is a fully assembled part that several people had to build and which Jack just drops into the leather sheath he made. If Jack had to hire people to make his interiors he would need one seamstress and probably at least one person to cut and process the tubing. These are jobs he could give to Americans but he chooses to give them to Chinese workers. And you give him a free pass on it while chastising me.

So what if the material he uses comes from Chinese silk? Does he need to use American Spiders, or American Sheep? Again, there are somethings that you cannot avoid. I do not know anything about the materials, grades, suppliers that are involved in his liners, therefore I cannot comment on why he doesn't use them.

See above. The interior is the foundation of the case and without it there is, in fact, nothing that anyone would want to buy to hold their cues.

Or let's ask everyone. Would you all want to buy a flimsy leather bag with no dividers?

The case is only a case in it's entirety. If you put your cues in a bag, regardless of the material, its a cue bag.

JV

 

[classiccues]

You call campaigning unethical? Did you say that it wasn't allowed? I got news for you I had two or three PM's regarding the cue vote? Should that disqualify the cues? What about phone calls? Just proves beyond a shadow of a doubt what your real intentions are.

I am going on record right now, that YOU wanted a Chinese case to win so badly just so you coud come here are brag that a Chinese case won. It didn't pan out that way, and now we know that the possibility exists that anything you run from this point forward, is possibly (read probably) tainted. Its good that Jamie did the cue thing, and a person that doesn't make cases should do the case nominations.

Friendly notice / nudge my testes, you know damn well what it was. John, you got caught being a jerk, man up and shut up.

JV

Then Wedge is harassing ME for making an reference to something unethical that HE did.

I am sorry but I am certainly allowed to make the comment I did. In that comment I did not accuse him of anything.

Let's break it down, this is the actual quote:

Way to parlay the "win". Next year if people ask their friends and family to vote I predict that a Chinese case will win by an amazingly huge margin.

Way to parlay the "win". - in other words, as you suggested, simply saying well played.

Next year if people ask their friends and family to vote I predict that a Chinese case will win by an amazingly huge margin. - a simple prediction based on the fact that Chinese people have a lot of connections. No accusation, no harassment. Just a simple statement.

Now ask yourself Joe why Wedge felt compelled to make this public? Could it be that he is feeling uneasy about the way it all went down and wanted to be the one who made it public? I don't know but the fact is that he chose to attack me for a statement that is ambiguous at best and only has meaning if one is actually feeling some hesitation about the way he went about things.

You can call it harassment but I call it a friendly notice that perhaps he shouldn't brag all too much about the victory.

But by making it about me instead of himself he is actually harassing me over an incident that is entirely of his own doing. Frankly if he had campaigned in the open, made a thread and said vote for me then it would been open season for everyone to jump in and do the same thing.

But I think most of us didn't see it as something where we should solicit votes and I think that people were talking about it between themselves long before I got wind of it, which was also after the voting was over IIRC.

So not surprisingly you want to interpret this as harassment but in fact anyone can see that Wedge is lucky that all that happened was a friendly nudge. It would have been well within my right to declare the contest void due to Wedge's actions and I may just do that anyway due to his actions today.

Then he can still say he got the most votes but in the thread I will link to this one and explain my decision. I will sleep on this and decide in the morning.

 

[rjb1168]

How many special circumstance rules should we create to accommodate you? You opt to engage everyone that has *anything* to say regarding you. At that point, everything is an escalation.

Do you feel you rate protection from the entire community's opinion..unless you approve?
I don't. I know first hand and from years of experience in dealing with you that you lack the simple ability to shut up.
Can't do it. Hard wired into your brain and you'll have an embolism if you couldn't have the very last word on *anything*.

In person, you might be different. Online, you're just another keyboard commando. You believe you are beyond any reproach on any topic.

That record stands for itself. Anyone who remembers or cares can chime in about RSB, AZB, BD, IP....how many other forums? The behavior and reasons you have detractors across the board is because of YOUR behavior...not moderation.

I stand by my words. You should never have been allowed back.
That is based on the long standing forum rules and then when applied to yourself...they aren't good enough.

Mike saw fit to make some exception. I wonder if he's ever regretted doing so. This cloud of animosity that follows you wherever you go has got to give him headaches.

Why are you worth it where others are banned permanently?

Mr Wilson,
Why does Joe get treated diffrently then John, that's not right. Anytime John post's something about his or other cases, Joe goes on the attack and nothing get's said to him. Just saying