Handicapping has ruined the SPORT!

Handicapping is gay

I can't believe it hasn't been said yet, but people develop skills out of neccesity. If there were no handicapped events you would have to beat good players to cash in tournaments, and either the B players of the world would rise to the occasion or fall short but the whole field would be stronger because of it. Ruined the sport, no, but definately ruined the quality of the average player. Around here, there are a TON of APA 5s that walk around with MVP trophies, patches, whatever, that couldn't win a single game against an A player. But why should they worry about that, they live in their own little world with their big egos and guess what? They win tournaments because all the good players are banned from going lol.
 
Doc Holliday said:
I can't believe it hasn't been said yet, but people develop skills out of neccesity. If there were no handicapped events you would have to beat good players to cash in tournaments, and either the B players of the world would rise to the occasion or fall short but the whole field would be stronger because of it. Ruined the sport, no, but definately ruined the quality of the average player. Around here, there are a TON of APA 5s that walk around with MVP trophies, patches, whatever, that couldn't win a single game against an A player. But why should they worry about that, they live in their own little world with their big egos and guess what? They win tournaments because all the good players are banned from going lol.
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Bingo...we have a winner.

At this pount beating some housewife should not be on your list of accomplishments. APA wants everyone to play, understood. So do the billiard supply companies and pool halls would and do cease to exist without them.

Nobody can honestly say that league play and handicapped events elevate the level of play. If you can win by sandbaggibg, why improve? Human nature just goes to the path of least resistance.
 
Doc, the APA 5's would not be driven to become A players if you took away their trophies and patches. They'd simply lose more often, feel bad about their game, and just play less pool.
You'd have fewer C players, but you wouldn't have more A's and B's.

You tell me - do you know a SINGLE player at the A or B level who decided to get good at pool so he could enter and win certain tournaments?

I don't. Players at that level get there because of some internal force, some deep interest in getting good at the game. Who knows what motivates them. But it's not some specific tournament, or a dollar-store trophy.

Those future A's and B's will get there regardless of what tournaments are available.
And those APA 5's who are happy with their current level?
No outside force (like a tournament) will give them the drive to get better,
that has to come from within.
 
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Egos? wow!

The point of an establishment to invest in putting their tables out of commission for paying customers for a full night or weekend is to fill that place with players and spectators. At any given weekly tournament cities like Dallas or Ft. Worth have roughly 5 on average guys that have a huge advantage of winning every week. That leaves 27 other players that would come every week and watch these 4 or 5 guys walk away with the cash each and every week playing these everyday pool players even, and trust me they are there hijacking that spot every week for that easy money, i mean why wouldnt they? Then over time the "weaker" player start to take notice and they start showing up less and less until the owners can barely get 12 to play but yet still 5 of those 12 are going to still win the tournament. With handicapping it takes that 5 to like 15 or more that have a much better shot at cashing. With a tougher handicapping system that number could double. The bottomline it is about the quantity not the quality for the places that put on events. They need the B and C players to show up every week to play because thats the majority of the players. The top end player is a huge minority in any given tournament other than a major pro event. It is pure ego for me to play a man who plays pool basically for a living even just so I can say I played him even. Most everyday worker dont play pool with the hopes of going on the road or joining the tour. They play because they love the game and want a fair shot at cashing from time to time. Its really as simple as that. Egos take a back seat when money is on the line. Its drives when your playing for bragging rights with you buddies. Just my humble opinion.

Frank C
 
Getting better?

CreeDo said:
Doc, the APA 5's would not be driven to become A players if you took away their trophies and patches. They'd simply lose more often, feel bad about their game, and just play less pool.
You'd have fewer C players, but you wouldn't have more A's and B's.

You tell me - do you know a SINGLE player at the A or B level who decided to get good at pool so he could enter and win certain tournaments?

I don't. Players at that level get there because of some internal force, some deep interest in getting good at the game. Who knows what motivates them. But it's not some specific tournament, or a dollar-store trophy.

Those future A's and B's will get there regardless of what tournaments are available.
And those APA 5's who are happy with their current level?
No outside force (like a tournament) will give them the drive to get better,
that has to come from within.
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It seems that a lot of us are assuming that we all have the same idea of "getting better". I truly think that getting better is relative to each players idea of what gettting better means to them. I will venture to say that if you asked most league players what does getting better mean to them and they would probably say I want to be able to get out when I am suppose to, or not miss easy shots or be able to focus better. I think very few of them would have the desire to compete on a professional level. Im a 6 handicap golfer and I would take the biggest spot I could get if I could get it playing a scratch golfer. I will ask you all, would you spot shane, johnny, Earl, busty, JJ or any other top end player 1 or 2 games on the wire in a tournment? Because the notion of playing them even in hopes that that beating you are about to take will somehow elevate your game makes just about as much sense. Essentially thats what your doing if your playing that caliber of player even. You have no chance and you will have gained nothing from the experience. Again, just my humble .02.

FC
 
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Rated "R" for drug references

This may be the oldest discussion in pool.

Handicaps are meant to increase interest in the game - they get someone "hooked". After your interest is developed and you're hooked you don't want handicaps but you play them because you're hooked. Your ability to get a fix is reduced if you don't play handicapped tournaments. The league systems, once someone is hooked, don't NEED to pay as much attention to you simply because you're hooked. They do, but their living is made from the masses.

Complain all you want about handicapped tournaments but do you really NEVER play them?

Pool - drugs
Handicap - free drugs
Action - "just a taste"
League system - dealers
Tournaments - fix
AZBilliards forum - 12 step program

"Hello, my name is Tony and I'm a cueaholic."
 
CreeDo said:
.

You tell me - do you know a SINGLE player at the A or B level who decided to get good at pool so he could enter and win certain tournaments?
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Yes, me. I am only a B player but I play as often as I can in regional tour events. No , I cannot win them, but with a good draw I can get in the final 5 or 8. I know a good shortstop player is going to beat me 9 to 5 but maybe next week I get to 6, and next month I get to 7 etc. It is not 1 tournament in particular I want to win, but the driving force of knowing I HAVE to play better to finish higher in all events. I mean players that shoot straighter than me have probobly put the time in and I haven't, so why should I get a handicap because I tried less hard or practiced less? We all woke up the same today, go hit some balls better yourself. Right?
 
The issue here really isn't the handicap itself, it's the manipulation of "your" handicap.

If a person adds innings, doesn't count safes, etc, to keep their rating low, it's manipulating the system and it is the manipulation that is the problem, not the system.

Do that and involve it into a tournament payout, I personally think it's not only cheating, but in some way, that person is stealing.

If someone is putting in time, quality time, I'd think their rating will go up. With the quality time, I think they'd be able to shoot the nuts off someone that hasn't, regardless of handicap - UNLESS the lower person is manipulating their rating. Again sandbagging is the issue more than the handicap.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Yes, me. I am only a B player but I play as often as I can in regional tour events. No , I cannot win them, but with a good draw I can get in the final 5 or 8. I know a good shortstop player is going to beat me 9 to 5 but maybe next week I get to 6, and next month I get to 7 etc. It is not 1 tournament in particular I want to win, but the driving force of knowing I HAVE to play better to finish higher in all events. I mean players that shoot straighter than me have probobly put the time in and I haven't, so why should I get a handicap because I tried less hard or practiced less? We all woke up the same today, go hit some balls better yourself. Right?
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You wanna know the answer? We have anywhere between 100 - 140 people playing APA here, depending on the session. If you took away the handicap tomorrow, I bet we'd lose about half right away, and the rest would start to trickle away, till you had 20-25 left, maybe.

League play is supposed to be fun, and the vast majority of league players aren't into pool like you or I. Most will play very little outside of league night, and even then they aren't striving to learn. If the casual player doesnt have a chance, they will stop playing, because it isn't fun. They aren't driven to improve, and that has nothing to do with sandbagging.

We have a local $10 entry fee tourney here, handicapped, and can barely draw ten players most weeks. With no handicap, there would be a couple players, maybe.

I want to improve. I would probably play in some non-handicapped stuff, if that's all there was, or if it were a once in a while special event. But my time (and money) is limited, and I'm not gonna give up what little time i have to get my brains beat in, week after week. I want to improve, but I also want to enjoy myself, too.
 
justadub said:
...the rest would start to trickle away, till you had 20-25 left, maybe.

League play is supposed to be fun,...
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Bingo

Handicap leagues are only one branch on a big tree. So "Ruined Pool" - only if you fall out of the tree.
 
And really, I am not hating on the leagues here. I ran a local APA and a local TAP league for a couple years around Southern Maryland. The league system is great for beginners but the whole idea of handicapping anything breeds the mentality of sandbagging. Once a player reaches a level where it becomes difficult to improve, the only things to do are work really hard to push through OR do basiclly nothing and manipulate your handicap. Both things get you to the same place so which is the easiest?
 
I believe that this is more about the player than the handicap. For three years I was a D level player getting the 7 usually the 8 even 6 and out. I would move through half the field of local tournaments but I wouldnt learn anything. Once I saw that my game was suffering I strove to get better. I am no A player but I have been winning even up games because I look to run all 9 instead of all 6.

It is up to the player to strive
 
Doc Holliday said:
Yes, me. I am only a B player but I play as often as I can in regional tour events. No , I cannot win them, but with a good draw I can get in the final 5 or 8. I know a good shortstop player is going to beat me 9 to 5 but maybe next week I get to 6, and next month I get to 7 etc. It is not 1 tournament in particular I want to win, but the driving force of knowing I HAVE to play better to finish higher in all events.
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OK, fair enough. So just to be clear... if you were unlucky and lived somewhere where the nearest serious tournament was 150 miles away, and there's no regional tour... would you stop wanting to improve? Would your pool drive go away?
 
No I will always have the drive to improve as long as I'm playing.....at least I hope so. I am lucky enough to live in a spot where there isn't a pool hall for at least an hour drive 1 way and it is a real dump. The closest room is like a 2hr drive and ALL the regional tour stops are 2+ hour drives for me.

I used to play APA, like 5 years ago. I used the handicap system to measure my progress- I always wanted to go up, never down. I remember the 1rst night as a 7 I got smoked by another 7 and immediately went back down to a 6. I was literally sick over it. So in some cases, I suppose handicaps can be useful to aspiring players to gauge their progress, it was a great motivator for me.
 
Handicapping is just an illusion. I hope none of the lower ranked players that show up to the tournaments I run read this.

It's true though.

I run a weekly tournament at the pub by my place. I usually get 10-12 players, which is fine because there's only 2 tables there.

There are only 3 ranks in my tournament, Open, A and B.

Everyone that walks through the door the first time is ranked as an A player, except for players that are ranked as Open in our local VNEA league.

You have to be some kind of terrible to be ranked a B player in my tournament.

Anyways, the handicapping is simple. On the A side open players race to 4, A players race to 3 and B players 2.

Is a B player going to beat an A player? Sometimes, but not usually. Are they going to beat an open player. Never

Is an A player going to beat an Open payer? Sometimes, not usually, maybe a bit more than a B player would beat an A player.

Where my system falls down is for extremely good players that don't play league. Oh well, nothing is perfect.

I don't see an easy way to fix this as I don't run the league I'm taking the rankings from.

My only other option would be to run a non handicapped tournament, that would reduce the number of people that showed up by half.

What does that tell me? Half the A players are deluding themselves if they think they can win the tournament when there are open players there.

Like I said. Handicapping is just an illusion to increase numbers. It makes very little difference.
 
Well there ya go... That's pretty much what I'm saying - guys like you (maybe me too) just want to be good at pool, period. Even without a tournament, we'd find some other yardstick like the APA. I bet you could be on a desert island with one table and you'd want to get better.

Those guys who have been APA 5's for ten years... forget it, they don't think like us, they just don't want to do the work. Take away the handicapped tournaments and they'll just bang balls socially or quit.
 
My mood hasn't changed at all...

7forlife said:
What has really changed is the OP mood. He went from ARRRRR to "wellllll here is what i was trying to say"

But judging by his tone in the beginning, he is saying that the APA has done tremendous damage to pool and should switch to this no handicap format. But also as far as getting "lumps and paying dues" you don't have to be in a tournament to do so, anyone can match up (that same C player with an A or B player) for the same $5+ a set (so that no one get hurts) and get his experience then also.

differnet situations call for different thing, it is necessary in some cases and not in others, but this can also be said about other things.
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First of all, I never said anything about the APA. I don't think they should change. They are what they are, they keep the casual player interested,(at least once a week), they keep pool rooms and bars in business....My OP was referring to the purity of the sport, one's own drive to improve...as far as paying your dues and taking your lumps....how many top notch players will play you a SET for $5 or $10? ...NONE! But if you are playing in a tournament, you can have that opportunity and I lived and played in those days and the sport still thrived! Handicapping and rule changes have dumbed down the game....as far as how I feel about how the post went, I'm glad to prompt the conversation and am glad to see that there are a fair amount of people out there who SEE MY POINT!
 
David Marcus said:
First of all, I never said anything about the APA. I don't think they should change. They are what they are, they keep the casual player interested,(at least once a week), they keep pool rooms and bars in business....My OP was referring to the purity of the sport, one's own drive to improve...as far as paying your dues and taking your lumps....how many top notch players will play you a SET for $5 or $10? ...NONE! But if you are playing in a tournament, you can have that opportunity and I lived and played in those days and the sport still thrived! Handicapping and rule changes have dumbed down the game....as far as how I feel about how the post went, I'm glad to prompt the conversation and am glad to see that there are a fair amount of people out there who SEE MY POINT!
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I hear what your saying, David. I play in APA league and of course there I will take a spot because, well, I have to for the team. But if I'm just playing for play against someone better than me (I don't gamble), I'd rather get my head handed to me than take a spot.

Maniac
 
Any handicap system only works if everyone has the integrity to play their best at all times. I enjoy playing those who have a better skill level than I. I take it that it is the cost of getting better......I started by paying my way and often was out in 2. It does not happen so often now (actually almost never now) and a really nice side effect is that now I can play all over the country and get respect from players that know and appreciate the game.
 
most league players would rather have a root-canal with a butterknife than have their rating bumped. the idea of getting out of their comfortzone scares the hell out of them. i played league pool off and on for 20yrs. and saw this firsthand on a lot of occasions.
 
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