Rodeny Morris Beats the 13 ball Ghost usng CTE

JB Cases said:
Yes Sean, all high level pool is taking the harness straps off and flying. I don't really understand why you consider straight pool to be an acid test?
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Two words: endurance and consistency.

JB Cases said:
Sorry but running ten racks of the 13 ball ghost is way harder than running a hundred balls in straight pool. WAY HARDER.
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Really? That's your personal opinion, which you've stated before. Why not go to the source and ask Rodney? I don't know Rodney, but since you're on his Facebook friends list, why not ask him?

And let's remember, Rodney is a short-rack rotation player to his bones. He'd openly stated this. I'm going to look for it, but there was a video with an interview where Rodney openly stated this, and when asked about straight pool (the interviewer was leading down the path of highlighting Rodney's quick pace at the table, and how much of a joy it would be to see him run a big number in 14.1), Rodney simply replied that he doesn't have the consistency to play it, that he can't focus for that long, that short-rack rotation games "suit him" because he can rest between racks. HE ACTUALLY SAID THAT, and to this day, it stuck with me. I'll look for that video for you, and when I find it (if it's still out there), I'll post it here.

JB Cases said:
When your shot is dictated to you then you must execute that shot regardless of how easy or difficult it is. And yes I understand about your "mind gets to rest with each break" concept and that is your psychological take on it but the fact is that the physical requirements are much different because every break in rotation games gives you a layout of balls where the shot choices are severely limited.

To me Rodney or any top pro can beat the ghost in rotation or run a hundred balls when they really set their mind to it regardless of what method of aiming they use.
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I agree with that last paragraph, to a point. The "setting their mind to it" is the key part in all that, and that's my point all along. "Setting one's mind to it" means the game itself, the pattern play, and does NOT involve repetitive motions like aiming -- that should be embedded in the subconscious. If you're "thinking" about aiming, you're missing! If not now, then on the next shot... or the next.

Let me share with you that in this past 14.1 championship, I really enjoyed watching Rodney play. I was rooting for Rodney all the way, because he's a genuine great guy and I like his quick pace of play, even though his patterns were obviously 9-ball patterns -- his cue ball control was questionable many times. That didn't matter -- I wanted to see Rodney go deep. Unfortunately, he didn't.

JB Cases said:
The fact is that we don't know if Rodney was thinking about his aiming with each and every shot. I kind of doubt it. As you know with CTE once you get comfortable with it then it's pretty much automatic without much in the way of conscious decision making. At the highest level it's acquire target-zero in-shoot.
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And that's my point, too. You'll remember in my original post in this thread, that you have to take the harnesses off and just fly. What I mean, is with all this discussion about aiming, one would think all these players are "thinking" their way through the nuances of aiming every shot. E.g.: "view the CTEL (that's actually easy); stand 'this' way and acquire this visual; position head 'this' way and while keeping first visual, acquire this second visual; bend down/over into shot, and place bridge hand on table, taking care to keep both visuals 'visible' and align to/between them or what-not; pivot cue tip to center cue ball, take practice strokes, and fire." On every single shot -- engaging the conscious mind to do all these steps. You have to ask yourself -- Really?!?

I'm not saying in the beginning learning stages that this is uncalled for; it is certainly called for to learn a new system, to ingrain and embed it. But experienced players doing this and "thinking" about it?

I hope you understand my point. I'm not trying to undermine aiming systems in the respect of not learning them. What I *am* trying to point out, is that at some point, that aiming system needs to be embedded in your subconscious, and you should NO LONGER be "thinking" about aiming.

-Sean
 
JB Cases said:
Well I will say that you can deliberate your way into the zone. I have often started sets with full focus on my aiming and mechanics to the point of whispering mantras to myself. The result being that after a game or two I find myself relaxed and just shooting without the deliberate attention to the steps.

I think that the brain is certainly capable of maintaining a running checklist for every shot all the way through a set of any length. That could simply be a person's routine and what works for them.

I have also found that sometimes it's very helpful to have a conversation with myself as to what the best move is. An out-loud audible conversation where I work out the consequences and risk-assessment. Sometimes this goes on for many shots until such time as I feel I can see what to do without the dialog.

But yes the ultimate goal would be autopilot set to the highest gear.
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I posted a response to your earlier post, before seeing this. Thank you.

And concerning mid-game "conversations" with oneself -- to, e.g., calm oneself down; help maintain focus; talk about the pattern in front of you and how you should play this more difficult shot because it opens the rest of the pattern up for you; not get sharked by that blinking LED in that electronic device (a camera) in that group of people in the stands; etc. -- that's a Good Thing. I think any accomplished player does that. But I don't think you're going to find the experienced player "reminding" him/herself about "acquiring visuals" or anything along those aiming lines. That just has to Happen(TM).

You nailed it with the comment about autopilot set to the highest gear.

-Sean
 
(a good "educated estimate")

JB Cases said:
I misspoke about it being a race to 10. But I disagree about it being tougher. In a race you have a finite amount of games to accomplish the task. In an ahead set you have a nearly infinite amount of games to finish the task. In other words you could play 500 games and still be even with the ghost on wins and losses. With a a race to 10 you will have a definite winner after a maximum of 19 games.
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Yes, someone at Rodney's speed could run over 120 balls playing straight pool with three days practice - then he would be capable of running 150 within two weeks in a match (a good "educated estimate").
 
sfleinen said:
Ok, for *this* one, I'll bite. I'll stick my neck out, and say you have it backwards. Shooting a shot in pool, fundamentals and aiming included, is a repeatable task. Do you think about aiming when throwing a baseball? I would venture to say you don't. You just throw the ball -- your subconscious takes care of the aim part.

Put it another way. For *how long* can you think about everything? For how long can you have your conscious mind engaged in the minutiae of shooting pool? A couple/three racks, or maybe even a set of 9-ball? Sure. But 50/60/70...100 balls in straight pool? I Don't Think So(TM). At some point, you are going to HAVE to relegate all those repeatable things into your subconscious. Do you really think the very best players that compete in the World 14.1 championships are "thinking" about the aim on every single ball, during the course of a 100-ball run? Do you think Oliver Ortmann "thought" his way through aiming every ball in his two 100-and-out and another 150-and-out in the World Championships a couple years ago?

Like I said, you can probably get away with "thinking your aim" through every single shot in a couple/three racks or even a set of 9-ball. Your mind gets to "reset" and rest during every breakshot, and I can see why you'd adopt the stance of "but what's so hard about that?". But try that during, say, a 50-ball run in straight pool. Try keeping your conscious mind engaged in all that minutiae of aiming on every single shot.

If you can do that, you're a better man than I.

-Sean <-- ignoring the cartoonish responses in other posts
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You mean something like this?

http://www.billiardsthegame.com/cte-49-ball-run-273
 
just a little something to ponder

I played in New Town, ND last year and watched Stevie Moore play for many hours in matches. Great Guy, and he had is Pro One DVD in hand, talking to many people about it. I will say this. I saw on many occassions when Stevie had a long hard shot in a game he went up and put his cue tip on the table where the ghost ball would sit. If he was only using CTE there would be no need for this. I would assume he was using more than one "system" to verify where to shoot. JMHO.
 
robsnotes4u said:
I played in New Town, ND last year and watched Stevie Moore play for many hours in matches. Great Guy, and he had is Pro One DVD in hand, talking to many people about it. I will say this. I saw on many occassions when Stevie had a long hard shot in a game he went up and put his cue tip on the table where the ghost ball would sit. If he was only using CTE there would be no need for this. I would assume he was using more than one "system" to verify where to shoot. JMHO.
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Thanks for the observation. I too like Stevie for he is a very affable guy and very approachable. I would guess that to get to the level of high play, that he has gone through many methods of aiming including looking at the contact point on the OB that send it to the target pocket. :smile:
 
pivot to use spin and move my cue parallel to create deflection

LAMas said:
Thanks for the observation. I too like Stevie for he is a very affable guy and very approachable. I would guess that to get to the level of high play, that he has gone through many methods of aiming including looking at the contact point on the OB that send it to the target pocket. :smile:
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I talked to someone that uses the CTE/Pivot Aiming two nights ago and they were raving about it and wished they had used it back when they competed regularly (they're retired, and used to play a world class level).

There are many ways to accomplish making a pool ball and arguing about which one is better serves no positive purpose. What does serve a player positively is understanding that the cue ball and object ball DO CONNECT, and you can create angles using their tip.

When creating angles, I pivot to use spin and move my cue parallel to create deflection and whether you consciously use spin and deflection or not you can't just ignore it's effect on the cue ball. It's like playing any other sport, it's best to recognize what the ball tends to do naturally and learn to, not only control it, use it to create an advantage. This opportunity exists, however, it's been kept "hidden" for many years. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
I would like to reassure everyone about my aiming. I use CTE/PRO ONE. No ghost ball. No contact points. I can say that they're had been times where I would go back to those prehistoric aiming techniques. I am way beyond that now. I am an exclusive CTE/PRO ONE'r. :)

Playing pool subconsciously is what we all strive for. I can reach the zone in a much quicker fashion now since using CTE. When I first began playin pool I had to consciously aim at balls. As I began to get better my flow came n went. Jus like everyone. Once I learned CTE I knew it would eventually free my mind completely of aiming. I play in a sub conscious state much more now. I am actually closer to being shark proof. I say this because before learning CTE, while I was down on the shot I could be easily distracted. I didn't know why. I know now that it was because my eyes were really looking at nothing. But since learning PRO ONE I know exactly what I'm looking at. since my aim wAs subjective my eyes could be easily pulled off line. Now with PRO ONE I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I AM LOOKING AT WHICH IN TURN GIVES MY BRAIN and eyes the comfort of not being as easily distracted. Which allows me to just focus on stroking straight even though my eyes have been pulled off line by a distraction. CTE/PRO ONE will improve your game much faster and with more confidence than any other method. That's my story n I'm stickin to it.

Stevie"The Blade"Moore
CTE/PRO ONE INSTRUCTOR
www.justcueit.com
Stevietheblade@gmail.com
 
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robsnotes4u said:
I played in New Town, ND last year and watched Stevie Moore play for many hours in matches. Great Guy, and he had is Pro One DVD in hand, talking to many people about it. I will say this. I saw on many occassions when Stevie had a long hard shot in a game he went up and put his cue tip on the table where the ghost ball would sit. If he was only using CTE there would be no need for this. I would assume he was using more than one "system" to verify where to shoot. JMHO.
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I do the same thing occasionally. I see NOTHING wrong with using GB to double check or otherwise reaffirm something.

As I have told Duckie plenty of times any player can ALWAYS use GB at any time for any reason. There are times I think when you want to and times when you need to.

That doesn't change the fact that on the vast majority of shots directly to a pocket that a player faces there is a better way than GB to aim.
 
sfleinen said:
Additionally, what would be truly interesting -- and to me, the "acid test" -- would be someone posting a high run in 14.1. The highest run I've seen by a known pivot-based aiming user, is Landon Shuffett's 140-ball run last year (or was it the year before? Can't recall...).

Don't get me wrong -- pocketing balls is pocketing balls regardless of the aiming system used -- but I do think aiming system aficionados spend entirely too much time thinking about this.

Straight pool is about getting into a rhythm, where you DON'T THINK ABOUT AIMING, and instead focus on patterns as you pick the balls off the table. The way I see most aiming system aficionados here, it's like every shot involves the conscious mind -- "thought" is placed into aiming -- rather than let the subconscious take that task and do what it does best: repeat/playback a repetitive task.

While you can get away with that in short-rack rotation -- "think" about aiming on every shot, and then "reset" yourself with the breakshot for each rack -- if you do that in straight pool (i.e. "think" about aiming) you set yourself up for a MISS. If not now, then on the next shot. Or the next. Or, you fubar your patterns because you used the wrong part of your brain to do this repetitive task. Straight pool's long term shot-making longevity will GET YOU if you are not forcing that aiming into the background.

I'm probably going to catch flack for this, but I do think there are certain parts of the game, certain skills, where you need to take the harnesses off and just flap your wings and FLY.

-Sean
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Sean, this is a very unfair characterization of pro-one. It is very easy to play on auto-pilot using CTE, in fact much easier than any other way of aiming. It is a very very visual system, so once you've learned the visuals and have them ingrained pool becomes an easier game to play. To say it would hold you back while playing straight pool is wrong.
 
systems help

I am familiar with CTE/ProOne and my own system the SEE-SYSTEM.

All I can say is, that both systems throw your game off as long as have not automized them and both systems make you a way more consistent player when you have automized them.

On top, both systems help you to find your personal rythm and pace and help you to keep them during your matches- these 2 points, as well as the pre shot routine that is always identic using these systems are very important pieces of that big puzzle called "THE ZONE"Using ProONE/SEE-SYSTEM helps you to get into the zone more often and to stay in the zone longer as you don't have to think about anything anymore-you just see it and do it!

After having experimented with TOI for around 80 hours I have implemented TOI into my SEE-SYSTEM by creating adjusted "TO-sighting lines" into my SEE-SYSTEM and was able to break and run 8 consecutive racks in 9 ball playing a money game last Wednesday night at my pool club against another player. Ran a five and a six pack some weeks ago - so 8 racks is my personal record :-)for now (happy:wink:)

All depends on the discipline of the playerin my humble opnion!

-Has he got the discipline to understand and learn the system

-has he got the discipline to adjust things until they work in more and more situations (different strokes/different acceleration/different distances/ using deflection or deflection only etc.

-has he got the discipline to work on it-has he got the discipline to "forget what he learned" after a certain time and just doing it

-has he got the discipline to just trust it while playing a match and just doing it while observing his results without evaluating it. Writing down situations when something did not work out as expected and training them the next day
adjusting what needs to be adjusted to work for him.

-has he got the discipline to just enjoy what he is working on- each time he is at the table on his own

just my 2 cents
Ekkes
 
Sean,

It seems you think CTE is a system that forces you to think about aiming? I know we mostly discuss the learning phase around here, but once past that, aiming is pretty automatic.

Shot choice becomes automatic. You do line up visuals, that is quick to do. Then it is move to CCB and shoot.
 
JB Cases said:
Search and you shall receive. :-)

http://vimeo.com/59681861
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Not my job to, John. The onus is on the poster to get his/her own location on the web correct. Not for the readership to "divine what the poster meant, and, oh, here, I searched for and found your location on the web, so let me fix that URL for you."

-Sean <-- learned a long time ago about time management, where time is best spent, and who's the appropriate owner of the task
 
mohrt said:
Sean,

It seems you think CTE is a system that forces you to think about aiming? I know we mostly discuss the learning phase around here, but once past that, aiming is pretty automatic.

Shot choice becomes automatic. You do line up visuals, that is quick to do. Then it is move to CCB and shoot.
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Monte:

Accomplished CTE/pivot-based aiming players, no. I do believe they get this to where it's automatic.

But your average everyday league player, or whatever demographic makes up the lion's share of the readership here? Yes, I do believe entirely too much "CPU time" upstairs is devoted to the task of aiming, and too much emphasis is placed upon it, rather that LEARNING how to embed all that stuff. I offer to you the very threads here in this forum as an example -- instructional threads from yourself, John, Stan, Dave Segal, et al. excepted, of course, because that's the intent of these particular threads.

I don't consider myself to be a professional player by any means (and to be honest, I don't have the means to become one, either, unless I adopt major changes in my life). But I would say I'm fairly accomplished, a known 100-ball runner in straight pool, arguably the best 1p player in my area, and I'm known to catch an incendiary gear in rotation games. The one thing other than adopting solid fundamentals that really ratcheted up my game, was learning how to embed all the repetitive tasks -- including aiming -- to the point where I don't think about them. If I start getting into the mode of "thinking" about the mechanics of aiming, my game goes downhill in a jiffy. In fact -- although I probably shouldn't tell you this if we do end up meeting and enjoying those pitchers over matches of straight pool -- the best way to shark me, is while in those "friendly" matches, to ask me how I aim. Get me into that information-sharing mode, to "think" about aiming and share it, and watch as how I rewire my thought processes to go into that information-sharing mode, that I start end-running / short-circuiting my subconscious just so I can "get at" that information, and my execution starts to falter. The edge comes off of my play, and I start bobbling shots. It takes me a while to shake that off, too -- to get my mind back to where I'm not end-running my subconscious, back to my normal mode of play.

You might point at that, and say, "See? If you were using a pivot-based aiming system, you wouldn't have that problem of having to rely upon your subconscious, and can execute the shot nearly the same, conscious or not." (John Barton and I have had those discussions, so I know this is the standard "canned" comeback to the subconscious argument.) I would offer my response back in square one -- for *how long* can you keep that conscious mind in play, before your mind starts to drift or you become tired? I can't -- even as devoted a player I am, I can't keep my brain 100% focused on all that little minutiae that, IMHO, *should have been* embedded in the subconscious.

That's the point of my posts -- to add to the readership's understanding that, yes, once you get those "steps" for the particular aiming system under your belt, your next job -- your next DUTY, rather -- is to ingrain it.

-Sean
 
cookie man said:
Sean, this is a very unfair characterization of pro-one. It is very easy to play on auto-pilot using CTE, in fact much easier than any other way of aiming. It is a very very visual system, so once you've learned the visuals and have them ingrained pool becomes an easier game to play. To say it would hold you back while playing straight pool is wrong.
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Dave:

For a player of your caliber, yes. You know where time is best spent, and have spent it on ingraining your aiming system. But I disagree on the notion that "it's easier with Pro/1 to ingrain it precisely 'because' it's a visual system." All shot-making in pool, regardless of the aiming system used, has to be ingrained to the point where you've built up a "catalog" of shots that you just align yourself to, get down on, and fire.

From the talk I see on these threads -- other than the instructional threads, of course -- it's like everyone's thinking about all the steps on every shot. And to THEM, I offer the challenge of trying that while running 50 or more balls in straight pool. Heck, dispense with the 50 -- with the way everyone talks on here, it's like misses once an hour are the norm -- let's see a 70/80 ball run (I won't be unfair and throw triple digits out there, because that can't be expected from folks who don't normally play 14.1 -- and even experienced 14.1 players don't run those kind of numbers regularly either). This will prove the endurance and longevity aspect, and drive home the point of aiming needing to be a subconscious activity.

I'm not trying to be unfair, but rather trying to demonstrate a point -- by offering self-demonstration.

-Sean
 
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