What did I miss with the BCA instructors

[Donny Lutz]

Thanks for correction.

The BCA hasn't had a league system for many years now, they sold it to Mark Griffin, who still uses the name BCApl. ("pl" added for Pool League) The fact the name is the same has created confusion regarding what the BCA does or doesn't do, so far as actually being involved in pool beyond the trade show aspect.

What they actually do is a subject for others, but they have not had a league system for some time now.

Thanks for the correction. It is a bit confusing, I'll admit, especially when you look at the official BCA Rule Book and find that the APA, BCAPL and VNEA are listed as "BCA" members.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The BCA hasn't had a league system for many years now, they sold it to Mark Griffin, who still uses the name BCApl. ("pl" added for Pool League) The fact the name is the same has created confusion regarding what the BCA does or doesn't do, so far as actually being involved in pool beyond the trade show aspect.

What they actually do is a subject for others, but they have not had a league system for some time now.

Yes Bruce. You beat me to it. The BCA did sell the leagues.

Apparently they have as well, either 'sold', 'farmed out', or simply given away the responsibilty regarding instructor 'supervision' to a small group of instructors that have formulated a method of teaching that they, the samll group, naturally feels is benficial.

A problem that I see that might arise is that if an instructor does not feel the same regarding that method, it would certainly seem to me that that instructor would be at a disadvantage within the association, at least in the terms of recommendations & referrals from fellow associates & perhaps even when it comes to the ability to advance in level designations.

I still do not have a good understanding of the relationship between the BCA & the PBIA if one does indeed really exsists. There have been seemingly conflicting statements made regarding the structure of the PBIA.

If there is no relationship to the BCA, the supposed governing body, then anyone could start an instructor certification program. Naturally it would be beneficial if one had expertise in that field, someone like say Jerry Briesath. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Briesath would do such. I am just using him as an example of a respected member of the instructor community.

I certainly think that a full & complete explanation of the structure of the PBIA & it's relationship with the BCA is in order & would be beneficial since the AZB community may have a perception that might be incorrect.

If there is no real relationship betwen the PBIA & the BCA then their structure is certainly their business & their's alone. They would then be just another pool related business that is in no way responsible to the BCA other than that the BCA is a sponser. If the BCA is a sponser, then that implies to me that the PBIA is a seperate entity.

But if that is the fact & there is no real relationship to the BCA, other than sponsership, then that should be made clear if that is indeed the case.

Since I have used the word 'think' in this post, I might again be told to 'stop thinking about it & the 'smell' will go away' or I will be interrogated in piece meal on every statement in the post.

A simple definitive explanation should put the whole thing to rest & the 'smell' should indeed go away.

If the PBIA is a seperate business entity that the BCA simply chooses to sponser for their perceived benefit of the game, then that should simply be made clear.

If someone like Mr. Briesath or Mr. Ekkes or Mr. Wiley would start up their own instructor school & certification business then the BCA could & might choose to sponser or endorse that entity as well for the same reason.

Inquiring minds simply want to know. Others don't really care to know.

'We' don't need to take sides. It's just a question that the OP asked & the replies opened up other questions that appear should be answered in full.

That & most all of the above are just my humble opinions.

Regards to All &

 

[ENGLISH!]

You have drug this thread down to the dirt and then drug it over to the instructors forum and derailed a positive thread that randy had started.
Why don't you stop pussy footing around and ask the question that you want to know, WHERE IS THE MONEY, HOW MUCH , WHO IS IN CONTROLL. We all know that is what you really want to know. Now what makes you think you deserve to know this information? Second why do you bring this to a public forum instead of calling Randy and asking about the money, but I think that would take to much nerve, its much easier here behind the keyboard. Where were you a couple of years ago when the PBIA was started. Why now?

I just stumble onto AZB in June 2012 while buying a couple of shafts. I love the game of pocket billiards. I could care less about any money or where it goes. I am not a PBIA member or a BCA member.

You, like a few others, seem to think that you are omniscient & can read minds & 'motives'. Believe me you are not omniscient.

I have not 'drug' anything down. The OP asked a question & the answers brought up more questions that seemingly were not sufficiently answered.

Why is it that questions can not be asked in certain areas without the one asking the question being 'attacked'. That certainly seems to 'smell' & that 'smell seems to be stinky'.

Why do you turn questions about the business operations of the BCA & PBIA into a personal matter?

If there is no stink, then just clearing the air, so to speak, should resolve the issue & the perceived smell should indeed just go away.

Why the 'fear' of certain questions?

Is the PBIA an arm or leg extension of the BCA or is it just another business entity like Predator or Simonis?

Can a group of PBIA instructors branch out on their own & basically be in a similiar structure other than sponsorship by the BCA?

If they so choose, could the BCA also sponsor that organization or does the PBIA have an exclusive arrangement with the BCA?

These are all just simple questions. If the PBIA is indeed it's own entity & not affliated in any way with the BCA then it is their business & no answers need be given.

However, if there is an affiliation other than that of just being sponserd by the BCA, then that affiliation should be made clear.

As to me making personal contact with randyG, I think that would be inappropriate & should not be necessary as he & other PBIA members are participating in this forum & are utilizing it as a means to augment their business concerns.

Quid pro quo.

Again, most all of the above is just my humble opinion.

 

[FranCrimi]

You have drug this thread down to the dirt and then drug it over to the instructors forum and derailed a positive thread that randy had started.
Why don't you stop pussy footing around and ask the question that you want to know, WHERE IS THE MONEY, HOW MUCH , WHO IS IN CONTROLL. We all know that is what you really want to know. Now what makes you think you deserve to know this information? Second why do you bring this to a public forum instead of calling Randy and asking about the money, but I think that would take to much nerve, its much easier here behind the keyboard. Where were you a couple of years ago when the PBIA was started. Why now?

It's been a year since the PBIA was formed. I hadn't questioned it at all. I sort of figured it was some kind of joint ownership thing. I was OK with that and still am because the BCA, Simonis, Predator and PoolDawg are all reputable companies. I really like the idea of guys like Rob Johnson, Ivan Lee and Karim Bellaj taking a hands-on interest in our instructor program. You couldn't ask for a more intelligent group of people. I've worked with them and I know. We'd be lucky to have them.


What confused me was when Randy stated publicly that the instructors own it and when Scott stated it was an independent organization. That came as a bit of a shock to me. It needs to be cleared up publicly because it was stated publicly.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Ms. Crimi,

It does not appear that there will be any conclusive explanation offered in this forum.

It would appear that if you desire one, you or someone else may have to do an investigation of sorts. I may be, & hope that, I am wrong.

In any case, I hope you can get the correct information as you certainly deserve to have it, being that you are a Master Instructor and a Member of the Association.

Regards to You &

 

[CJ Wiley]

What is considered "the best way" to begin with?

It's been a year since the PBIA was formed. I hadn't questioned it at all. I sort of figured it was some kind of joint ownership thing. I was OK with that and still am because the BCA, Simonis, Predator and PoolDawg are all reputable companies. I really like the idea of guys like Rob Johnson, Ivan Lee and Karim Bellaj taking a hands-on interest in our instructor program. You couldn't ask for a more intelligent group of people. I've worked with them and I know. We'd be lucky to have them.


What confused me was when Randy stated publicly that the instructors own it and when Scott stated it was an independent organization. That came as a bit of a shock to me. It needs to be cleared up publicly because it was stated publicly.

Fran, if you were going to start a new association for Pocket Billiard Instructors/Teachers how would you recommend formatting it?

Is the main reason for "non profit" status for tax benifits? Just give us an example of your "perfect scenario" of how an organization like this would file and operate as far as structure ie: Corp. LLC, LP, Non Profit, etc.

Thanks, I'm really curious how to do it "the best way" to begin with.....CJ Wiley 'The Accounting is the Teacher' :wink:

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran, if you were going to start a new association for Pocket Billiard Instructors/Teachers how would you recommend formatting it?

Is the main reason for "non profit" status for tax benifits? Just give us an example of your "perfect scenario" of how an organization like this would file and operate as far as structure ie: Corp. LLC, LP, Non Profit, etc.

Thanks, I'm really curious how to do it "the best way" to begin with.....CJ Wiley 'The Accounting is the Teacher' :wink:

Actually, CJ, I like it if it's set up the way I think it is....which is joint ownership by reputable companies. That provides a system of necessary checks and balances.

Nobody in our industry is independent. We are too small of a group. But if we just accept our interdependence and act in the most ethical way we can, then we will help our sport.

As for non-profit, the 501(c) 3 status is what everyone is after because it allows the sponsors and contributors to write off their contributions as tax-deductible contributions. That's no longer an option for sports organizations unless they are something like the BEF, where they are education-based.

The 501(c)6 is OK, but again, hard to qualify for, and although it relieves the organization of tax liability, it does not offer the charitible contribution benefits to it's contributors.

There are also restrictions that go along with being non-profit. Sometimes there's more incentive to be a for-profit organization. Someone may be more inclined to help it grow if they can share in the profits.

 

[CJ Wiley]

a professional teaching organization where "the game is the teacher"

Actually, CJ, I like it if it's set up the way I think it is....which is joint ownership by reputable companies. That provides a system of necessary checks and balances.

Nobody in our industry is independent. We are too small of a group. But if we just accept our interdependence and act in the most ethical way we can, then we will help our sport.

As for non-profit, the 501(c) 3 status is what everyone is after because it allows the sponsors and contributors to write off their contributions as tax-deductible contributions. That's no longer an option for sports organizations unless they are something like the BEF, where they are education-based.

The 501(c)6 is OK, but again, hard to qualify for, and although it relieves the organization of tax liability, it does not offer the charitible contribution benefits to it's contributors.

There are also restrictions that go along with being non-profit. Sometimes there's more incentive to be a for-profit organization. Someone may be more inclined to help it grow if they can share in the profits.

I'm not sure how many "checks and balances" you would need with pool instructors, can you identify them please?

I understand, with my private club, Carsons Palace in Dallas we had over 630,000 (someone another time thought this was a typo...it's not) private members in the private club, which was a non profit entity, which was managed by an LLC, and Owned by a LP. If that was complex enough, our Liquor, Beer and Wine (because of private club guidelines) had to be a corporation separate from the ownership.

You could say I've had some experience with these issues, and many were under one roof.

The Professional Cue Sports Association that I co founded and operated was a non profit as well. I knew things had changed over the years, just wan't up to date. Thanks, Fran, I just wanted to know, hypothetically of course, how you would personally set up a professional teaching organization where "the game is the teacher". Aloha

 

[FranCrimi]

I'm not sure how many "checks and balances" you would need with pool instructors, can you identify them please?

I understand, with my private club, Carsons Palace in Dallas we had over 630,000 (someone another time thought this was a typo...it's not) private members in the private club, which was a non profit entity, which was managed by an LLC, and Owned by a LP. If that was complex enough, our Liquor, Beer and Wine (because of private club guidelines) had to be a corporation separate from the ownership.

You could say I've had some experience with these issues, and many were under one roof.

The Professional Cue Sports Association that I co founded and operated was a non profit as well. I knew things had changed over the years, just wan't up to date. Thanks, Fran, I just wanted to know, hypothetically of course, how you would personally set up a professional teaching organization where "the game is the teacher". Aloha

As I'm sure you know, checks and balances are to help keep people honest. It almost doesn't matter what the profession is. It's about making sure that no one-person or group exercise a biased control over an organization. One example would be segregation of duties to prevent the temptation of impropriety. Also, you'd want to make sure that policy isn't set by one person or group with a biased opinion that may not necessarily be for the good of the organization. Having owners or a board of directors to report to helps keeps things more honest. These are just some random examples.

Sounds like you had a pretty complicated setup.

 

[FranCrimi]

Ms. Crimi,

It does not appear that there will be any conclusive explanation offered in this forum.

It would appear that if you desire one, you or someone else may have to do an investigation of sorts. I may be, & hope that, I am wrong.

In any case, I hope you can get the correct information as you certainly deserve to have it, being that you are a Master Instructor and a Member of the Association.

Regards to You &

Rick, I think the PBIA web site makes it pretty clear that there is a new organization and that there are founding partners.

If it is indeed owned by the instructors, I'd like my share in cash, please.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, I think the PBIA web site makes it pretty clear that there is a new organization and that there are founding partners.

If it is indeed owned by the instructors, I'd like my share in cash, please.

I hear you.

It looks like the BCA is referring to the PBIA as their 'instructors program', but a click takes you to a different web site not a page of the BCA site.

It is whatever it is. But it would be interesting to understand the relationship. Is the PBIA under contract to perform as the BCA instructor program? If so, is that contract up for bid? Can anyone bid on it? Is it a reverse situation? Is the PBIA paying the BCA for that right or the endorsment.

I may be mistaken, but if I remember correctly, I think randyG said that the PBIA is not the exclusive instructor certification process for the BCA. If not then who else can certify for the BCA. There is no mention of anyone else on the BCA site.

Maybe it's just my maritime investigative background that makes me inquisitive, as I don't have a horse or dog in this race.

All the Best to You,

 

[CJ Wiley]

a grant for $25,000

Rick, I think the PBIA web site makes it pretty clear that there is a new organization and that there are founding partners.

If it is indeed owned by the instructors, I'd like my share in cash, please.

I'm curious why none of these are just set up as a straight "for profit" business and privately held? It always seems there's something strange going on when people start talking about "non profit" entities. It seems better to just have privately held companies and try to make a profit providing a service rather than running something along the lines of a charity.

The BCA gave the PCA a grant for $25,000 to run the Professional Cue Sports Association, do they still give grants to the Professional Organizations?

 

[Neil]

Rick, I think the PBIA web site makes it pretty clear that there is a new organization and that there are founding partners.

If it is indeed owned by the instructors, I'd like my share in cash, please.

Fran, the way I understand it, it IS owned by the instructors. And, you get "your share of the cash" every time a student pays you. Each instructor is the "owner" of their own business. However, similar to a franchise, there are guidelines to follow.

For example- a while back there was a person on here trying to make new rules for bar pool, and instruction. One of his "classics" was the "running stab shot". (yep, just like you think it means) Naturally, the "umbrella" or sanctioning organization, would not condone methods such as that. Hence the guidelines.

That is also why all of you spend time with other instructors to make sure you are competent to teach others. That is the purpose of the PBIA, to make sure that there is someone students can go to to get instruction and have a reasonable belief that what they are being taught is adequate or above for increasing their skill level. Basically, the PBIA is a "check and balance" for instructors and students alike.

As to the dues each instructor pays each year, I can't say just where that goes, as I don't know. But, I imagine there are certain overhead costs to maintaining a sort of franchise.

 

[RShellhouse]

OK....

I just cant stay away...its like a nascar race...you keep watching them going in circles knowing sooner or later there will be a crash...


Why are instructors required to log via some lesson tracking software?

"Deliver a minimum of 300 hours of instruction since last upgrade (tracked via the PBIA Lesson Tracking System)."

What if I as a student do not want my information entered into some computer?

"Assist in teaching at least two Instructor Training Courses (at least one with a Master Instructor)."

Are they paid for this? Are they expected to do this for free?


Once again I could care less about the answers...I just like asking...

 

[FranCrimi]

I'm curious why none of these are just set up as a straight "for profit" business and privately held? It always seems there's something strange going on when people start talking about "non profit" entities. It seems better to just have privately held companies and try to make a profit providing a service rather than running something along the lines of a charity.

The BCA gave the PCA a grant for $25,000 to run the Professional Cue Sports Association, do they still give grants to the Professional Organizations?

We don't know how this one is structured, CJ. It may very well be privately held.

The BCA gave away a lot of grant money over the years. I don't think they have the resources anymore to do it. I think they may be just trying to survive these days, which is why this move in bringing in partners doesn't surprise me. It's a lot better than putting the Instructor Program up for sale to the highest bidder.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

You are not required to log lessons into the tracking software. If you don't then you will not be able to move up the levels of certification.

As far as student information in the database, of course you always ask for permission, if your student doesn't want their information in this database then you don't log it. The point of it is so that the certification committee can check up on if these were real students or not.

As for assisting in teaching instructor courses, I cannot comment, as I never did that. I do know that if I choose to assist a master instructor in a pool school, I do not expect or desire compensation.

Not everything important in life revolves around money.

OK....

I just cant stay away...its like a nascar race...you keep watching them going in circles knowing sooner or later there will be a crash...


Why are instructors required to log via some lesson tracking software?

"Deliver a minimum of 300 hours of instruction since last upgrade (tracked via the PBIA Lesson Tracking System)."

What if I as a student do not want my information entered into some computer?

"Assist in teaching at least two Instructor Training Courses (at least one with a Master Instructor)."

Are they paid for this? Are they expected to do this for free?


Once again I could care less about the answers...I just like asking...

 

[CJ Wiley]

Unfortunately politics sometime plays a role and can stunt potential growth

We don't know how this one is structured, CJ. It may very well be privately held.

The BCA gave away a lot of grant money over the years. I don't think they have the resources anymore to do it. I think they may be just trying to survive these days, which is why this move in bringing in partners doesn't surprise me. It's a lot better than putting the Instructor Program up for sale to the highest bidder.

I'm in favor of good old fashioned capitalism where you have a business to offer a service or product that's more valuable than than the price you ask for it. Unfortunately politics sometime plays a role and can stunt potential growth, we've seen that in Professional Pool through the years.

The Golf Instruction has evolved a lot in the last 10 years, and Hank Haney was a part of that with his Golf Schools here in Texas. He researched Ben Hogan's teachings and worked with Mark O'meara for many years before his coaching of Tiger Woods. Maybe pocket billiards is ready for a similar path.

 

[ENGLISH!]

CJ,

How about this?

Crimi & Wiley Nationwide Pocket Billiard School - Instruction from a Player's Perspective

Maybe one day you could be a World Champion.

Best Regards,

 

[SmoothStroke]

True story, leads to my question

I was in a room not long ago. A local player is on a table with an instructor from this organization and a regular on this site. For nearly 3 hours all I saw was a video camera and eventually shooting stop shots into the side pocket, not much of anything else except 2 hours of attention to the elbow and what I assume was vertical forearm. Lets look at the video again.:scratchhead:
I was told this student paid big dollars for this lesson.
This student is a C player at best. I am confident I could teach him, elbow,vertical forearm, stop shot....and increase the distance of the stop shot by 6-8 ft in 2 hours or less, without the use of film, although I do think video is a good thing.
The same student has been on this site and has advertised lessons,taught by him as a B.C.A. instructor. He also advertises locally. According to him he is listed in your program.
I am an outside the box thinking instructor for 20 years. My theories and instructing methods work very well,my fee is minimal at best.

Now for my question.
How does an organization, 'Prestigious as this' warrant the fees this student paid for this lesson, and how is this student advertising as an instructor? He can't get out of the way of a turtle, nevermind a rack.
I am curious to where this money if any,,, is directed, does he pay a fee?
The instructor traveled across the country for this lesson, who pays for that?
In this area they are talking about the program, the instructor, and the student, the chatter isn't very pretty. (Northeast)
I think it is time to think out of the box a little.

This is not meant to be disrespectful or a knock on anyone. I believe all good intentions are in concern.
Sincerely, SmoothStroke

 

[Roger Long]

I've been reading this thread with some interest because the OP, Mark Cantrill, lives in my area and is an acquaintance and friend of mine.

I can see why Mark, and others, were confused about the affiliation between the BCA and the PBIA, because even though I thought I already had it pretty much figured out, this thread showed me that I really had no clue. And I am now more confused than ever.

What I do know for sure is this: In the beginning of the BCA Instructor Program (1992) there were no academies to attend, no application fees charged, and no official teaching requirements that had to be met. All the BCA asked of applicants was that they send in their curriculums and proof that they regularly used video taping as part of their lessons, along with endorsements from pro players and/or other well-known people in the industry. After reviewing all of the submitted data, the BCA would either reject your application, or accept you at the Entry Level, the Certified Level, or the Advanced Level (there was no Master Level at that time). To the best of my knowledge, it was John Lewis and Jerry Briesath who did the reviewing of applications, and it was entirely their call as to which level each applicant was assigned. (I was assigned to the Certified Level, and several years later was promoted to the Advanced Level after taking a course with Roy Yamane, who was then a Master Instructor, but has since dropped out of the program.)

I, too, dropped out of the BCA Instructor Program a couple of years ago. With economic hard times getting the better of me, I found it silly to be sending $100 every year to an organization that was offering nothing in return other than a listing on their website and the "honor" of advertising myself as a "BCA Certified" instructor. Well, I am of the opinion that once someone is certified to do something, they are always certified, so I have continued to advertise myself as a "certified instructor," except that I don't attach "BCA" or "PBIA" to it. But that "loss" hasn't hurt me one bit.

Also, if anyone is interested in really learning how to teach pool, I believe Fredric Fechter is still conducting courses in Peoria, IL. Fredric is another former Master Instructor who left the BCA program several years ago and began teaching and certifying instructors on his own. The last I heard, his 4-day course was running $400. The name of his school is CueSport International (or something very close to that), and he issues a teaching certificate that is good for your lifetime. And there are no further fees or yearly dues to contend with, and there is only one teaching level, so everyone in the organization is equal. Thank you, Mr. Fechter, you're a blessing to the industry.

Roger