Which is more difficult to master?
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8 or 9?
I would say that 8 ball is more complex than 9 ball, more traffic, having to get the right shape for breaking clusters and breaking the clusters in the right way. When you get so good, 9 ball becomes a crap shoot, and that usually means whoever gets the first good shot after the break.
I have won many more 8 ball tournaments than 9 ball, and I think I am a more complex thinker than most players is the reason why.
Mistakes I see often:
9 ball, making a bad shot or kick on the 1 ball after the break, when they have the rollout option. Why, in the world, would you do that when you have the option to roll the cue ball to the best position on the table for you, and against your opponent?
9 ball again, making a jump shot, and just getting a hit, but one that sells out the rest of the table, in lieu of a medium or hard kick that can yield you a safety back or at least, a good leave?
9 ball, making an easy safety, but one that lends itself for an easy safety back that puts you into a position to sell out the table?
8 ball, always choosing solids after the break no matter what the table looks like.
8 ball, kissing the opponent's ball in the way of your balls after making one of your balls.
8 ball, not taking the group where you have the best options for breaking clustered balls.
8 ball, not playing a safety the right way to win the game.
8 ball, and good players make this mistake too, not breaking out the 8 from one of your balls tied up with it when you have the shape to do so.
If you are a good player, you should be able to run the table. The earlier you can do this, the better because you will still have normally 3-5 other balls you can shoot after the breakout, which is better for the run.
8 ball, not breaking a cluster when you have the shape to do so, but rather leaving it to later, when you might be out of alignment to try to break it.
8 ball, not making your opponent to make a mistake instead of you. It is a lot better to leave your opponent a real low percentage shot (Hail Mary shot) than for you to have to make one.
8 ball, players not evaluating properly what their opponents are 'weak' on, and using that to their advantage when playing them. For example, if they are weak on banking, then leave them a bank shot if you have to, preferably a real hard bank shot, that maximizes your chances of getting back to the table.
8 ball, knowing when to play a safety. Don't leave that tied up ball until last and have to play a safety on it, especially if your opponent has 5 or 6 balls left, he will safety you to death. It is better to do it earlier if you can, and leave 1 or 2 other balls on the table to shoot at, or to play safety back with. This is game specific though, and depends exactly what is on the table, and the position.
I have a little motto I go by, "Play for the game, not the shot".
I would say that 8 ball is more complex than 9 ball, more traffic, having to get the right shape for breaking clusters and breaking the clusters in the right way. When you get so good, 9 ball becomes a crap shoot, and that usually means whoever gets the first good shot after the break.
I have won many more 8 ball tournaments than 9 ball, and I think I am a more complex thinker than most players is the reason why.
Mistakes I see often:
9 ball, making a bad shot or kick on the 1 ball after the break, when they have the rollout option. Why, in the world, would you do that when you have the option to roll the cue ball to the best position on the table for you, and against your opponent?
9 ball again, making a jump shot, and just getting a hit, but one that sells out the rest of the table, in lieu of a medium or hard kick that can yield you a safety back or at least, a good leave?
9 ball, making an easy safety, but one that lends itself for an easy safety back that puts you into a position to sell out the table?
8 ball, always choosing solids after the break no matter what the table looks like.
8 ball, kissing the opponent's ball in the way of your balls after making one of your balls.
8 ball, not taking the group where you have the best options for breaking clustered balls.
8 ball, not playing a safety the right way to win the game.
8 ball, and good players make this mistake too, not breaking out the 8 from one of your balls tied up with it when you have the shape to do so.
If you are a good player, you should be able to run the table. The earlier you can do this, the better because you will still have normally 3-5 other balls you can shoot after the breakout, which is better for the run.
8 ball, not breaking a cluster when you have the shape to do so, but rather leaving it to later, when you might be out of alignment to try to break it.
8 ball, not making your opponent to make a mistake instead of you. It is a lot better to leave your opponent a real low percentage shot (Hail Mary shot) than for you to have to make one.
8 ball, players not evaluating properly what their opponents are 'weak' on, and using that to their advantage when playing them. For example, if they are weak on banking, then leave them a bank shot if you have to, preferably a real hard bank shot, that maximizes your chances of getting back to the table.
8 ball, knowing when to play a safety. Don't leave that tied up ball until last and have to play a safety on it, especially if your opponent has 5 or 6 balls left, he will safety you to death. It is better to do it earlier if you can, and leave 1 or 2 other balls on the table to shoot at, or to play safety back with. This is game specific though, and depends exactly what is on the table, and the position.
I have a little motto I go by, "Play for the game, not the shot".
I responded "weight, what do you mean by weight?"
I grew up playing 8 Ball and Rotation. I played my first 9 Ball when I was 15 at a Bowling Alley in Kirksville Missouri.
The guy that wanted to play, also wanted to gamble at this "9 Ball game", and I agreed, and had him explain the rule to me. He told me and I had seen it on TV with Fats and Mosconi so I had a pretty good idea, and it was basically rotation with less balls.
I broke and ran the first 3 racks....the guy glared at me and said "I need weight from you!!!"....I responded "weight, what do you mean by weight?" (I had no idea what he was talking about).
He broke down his cue and stormed out the door. :thumbup:
PS: I believe 9 Ball is more challenging because you are always shooting (a sometimes tough) one ball to play position on one ball. 8 Ball is slightly easier, and to it's benefit requires more mental decisions because there's many ways to run the same rack. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I grew up playing 8 Ball and Rotation. I played my first 9 Ball when I was 15 at a Bowling Alley in Kirksville Missouri.
The guy that wanted to play, also wanted to gamble at this "9 Ball game", and I agreed, and had him explain the rule to me. He told me and I had seen it on TV with Fats and Mosconi so I had a pretty good idea, and it was basically rotation with less balls.
I broke and ran the first 3 racks....the guy glared at me and said "I need weight from you!!!"....I responded "weight, what do you mean by weight?" (I had no idea what he was talking about).
He broke down his cue and stormed out the door. :thumbup:
PS: I believe 9 Ball is more challenging because you are always shooting (a sometimes tough) one ball to play position on one ball. 8 Ball is slightly easier, and to it's benefit requires more mental decisions because there's many ways to run the same rack. 'The Game is the Teacher'
To answer this question is like saying "Which is your favorite kind of music, country or western?" The better question would have been "Is it possible to master any part of this game?"
thats the answer right there, BNR %.
the ? in the OP isnt really a good question, winning 8 ball can require alot more thinking than running out 9 ball. so is mastering winning or just running out? that's the real ? IMO. :wink:
9 Ball just takes more "fire power" because the shots are much more difficult
The point is they are the same "pool" game, just different flavors.
They are both different in styles and strategies, 9 Ball just takes more "fire power" because the shots are much more difficult. Cue ball control is more of a necessity in 8 Ball.
thats the answer right there, BNR %.
the ? in the OP isnt really a good question, winning 8 ball can require alot more thinking than running out 9 ball. so is mastering winning or just running out? that's the real ? IMO. :wink:
The point is they are the same "pool" game, just different flavors.
They are both different in styles and strategies, 9 Ball just takes more "fire power" because the shots are much more difficult. Cue ball control is more of a necessity in 8 Ball.
Not that my opinion matters much...but I say 8 is easier than 9. Simply put, you don't need the quality and variety of stroke to play 8 as you do 9. Most 8 is stop shots and creating angles. You can pattern a runout for little CB movement. Rarely is that the choice in 9. There is more luck in 8 as well. Finally, the BNR in 8 is guaranteed to be higher than 9. If you break...make 5 balls on the break in both games and park the CB in the middle of the table with no clusters...which do you runout the most?
BTW...I didn't tell you where the 1 ball was in 9 ball. See my point?
One last thing...if you have a terrible break then 8 will ruin you...fix that.
BTW...I didn't tell you where the 1 ball was in 9 ball.
See my point?One last thing...if you have a terrible break then 8 will ruin you...fix that.
As far as decision making goes, 8 ball and 9 ball are different, but not all together inferior or superior.
In 8 ball there are certainly more decisions to be made, but picking the optimal choice is generally not too difficult for an experienced player.
In 9 ball, the decisions are fewer, but not always as clear cut. When you come to a point where you have to decide whether to fire or duck, the luck factor makes it so that there may not always be a correct choice.
This difference in decision making is especially apparent when breaking out balls. In 9 ball, often times when attempting to break out balls, its much more likely than in 8 ball that you will not leave yourself a shot and might even screw yourself over. The probability of this occurring is much higher in 9 ball and must be taken into account when trying to run through obstacles. In 8 ball, if you planned correctly, a break out should most of the time yield shape on another ball (unless you made a mistake earlier in the rack and don't have enough balls left).
As far as safety play goes. Again, they are different, but not more or less difficult. In 9 ball, you only have to hide from one ball, but the difficult part is that the one ball you have to hide from is also the one ball you have to hit. Also, even good safeties may not yield good results because a strong opponent is fairly likely to kick safe or kick the ball in.
In 8 ball, the difficulty lies in hiding from half the balls on the table (generally speaking), which is not always an easy feat, but it is not so difficult as it might sound in many situations because you don't have to hit the balls you are hiding from and a well played safety will generally yield positive results provided you have a few balls left on the table and because there is no slop.
In 8 ball there are certainly more decisions to be made, but picking the optimal choice is generally not too difficult for an experienced player.
In 9 ball, the decisions are fewer, but not always as clear cut. When you come to a point where you have to decide whether to fire or duck, the luck factor makes it so that there may not always be a correct choice.
This difference in decision making is especially apparent when breaking out balls. In 9 ball, often times when attempting to break out balls, its much more likely than in 8 ball that you will not leave yourself a shot and might even screw yourself over. The probability of this occurring is much higher in 9 ball and must be taken into account when trying to run through obstacles. In 8 ball, if you planned correctly, a break out should most of the time yield shape on another ball (unless you made a mistake earlier in the rack and don't have enough balls left).
As far as safety play goes. Again, they are different, but not more or less difficult. In 9 ball, you only have to hide from one ball, but the difficult part is that the one ball you have to hide from is also the one ball you have to hit. Also, even good safeties may not yield good results because a strong opponent is fairly likely to kick safe or kick the ball in.
In 8 ball, the difficulty lies in hiding from half the balls on the table (generally speaking), which is not always an easy feat, but it is not so difficult as it might sound in many situations because you don't have to hit the balls you are hiding from and a well played safety will generally yield positive results provided you have a few balls left on the table and because there is no slop.
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8 ball at the A to pro level goes like this: Player A breaks, makes a ball, runs the rack. Player A breaks, fails to make a ball, Player B runs the rack. The end.
All the strategies/tactics in 8 ball are for the birds (and league players). At the higher levels (solid A and beyond), it's a break and runout game.
-roger
Lol. Yes, running all 15 balls in numerical order is as hard as being able to shoot any ball of the same suit.
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I say 9 ball is tougher. I see players who don't have a stroke and therefore can't move the CB around the table. They suck at 9 ball. Then you see the same guy poke his way around an 8 ball rack and with some smart play, can be reasonably competitive. I think it would be much easier to teach the 9 ball player with a stroke the nuances needed to become a good 8 ball player than teach the other guy a good stroke and how to move whitey around the table.
That's pretty much it. Your solid A, open, shortstop, pro player, is going to have a strong break and open the rack. If there are clusters, he'll have multiple option to break them out. They have a stroke that can move the CB multiple rails accurately.
The thinking part of 8 ball is also greatly exaggerated. It's basically a single frame 14.1, while managing clusters (if there are any). You pick your own patterns, yes, but don't need to fall on the 8 for a specific angle.
Compare the rotation games to straight pool, or 1 pocket. Forget about 8 ball, it's a fun game but it's no tester at the higher levels.
-roger
New Jersey
The OP was about comparing 8 Ball to 9 Ball. My caveat was about 15 Ball Rotation having complexities in patterns that require adjustment from 9 on the table to 15. Simple Math. Evidently, you have played more Rotation than I on 7 ft., 8 ft., 9ft., and 10 ft. Tables. Maybe Ten Ball has become more popular because 9 Ball is way overrated for skill?
If we were at the Ball Room, I think Tony would take his leg off and hit you with it. God Rest His Soul!
Joisey, fuuggeddaabboouuddiitt!!!
cajunfats
You ever played at The Ball Room in Tom's River back in the 80's? Ever play and beat Neptune Joe Frady? Pat Fleming?
The OP was about comparing 8 Ball to 9 Ball. My caveat was about 15 Ball Rotation having complexities in patterns that require adjustment from 9 on the table to 15. Simple Math. Evidently, you have played more Rotation than I on 7 ft., 8 ft., 9ft., and 10 ft. Tables. Maybe Ten Ball has become more popular because 9 Ball is way overrated for skill?
If we were at the Ball Room, I think Tony would take his leg off and hit you with it. God Rest His Soul!
Joisey, fuuggeddaabboouuddiitt!!!
cajunfats
I like eight ball but, sorry, it's just an easier game.
What nine ball requires is execution, execution, execution. Sure, the patterns are simple...
I'll hit this with low left, then this with high right, and so on. But at some point you will screw up
a little - too thin, stuck on the rail, dead straight, spin didn't take as much as you thought...
Suddenly your run is over, there's no plan B to finish running the rack.
You will be forced to leave plenty of angle, use sidespin, and hit firmly over and over,
and all of those things can cause a miss.
What nine ball requires is execution, execution, execution. Sure, the patterns are simple...
I'll hit this with low left, then this with high right, and so on. But at some point you will screw up
a little - too thin, stuck on the rail, dead straight, spin didn't take as much as you thought...
Suddenly your run is over, there's no plan B to finish running the rack.
You will be forced to leave plenty of angle, use sidespin, and hit firmly over and over,
and all of those things can cause a miss.
So, at what level do you consider this to be false? Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, or Professional? What size table has the best mathematical percentage of success at being equally difficult? Too many variables for you to comprehend,perhaps? It's a good question that he posted in the OP, one that has been bandied about since before we were born.
I can tell by your posts that you are probably a decent level player. Keep working on your game, you'll get better. You might even learn something new.
cajunfats
At no point in skill level or in any part of the universe is 8 ball on the same skill level as full rack rotation. Not even close.......ever.
You could possibly make the argument at a beginner level 8 ball and rotation are equally "impossible" as most players can't run 3 balls, let alone the 7 you need to win 8 ball, therefore rotation could be considered "equally" as challenging. However this would be true of ANY pool game at this skill level. Once you get to an intermediate/advanced level, full rack rotation will easily become head and shoulders harder than 8 ball for players. At a pro level the difference in difficulty is even greater between 8 ball and full rack rotation.
You can compare some cluster work on the bare basic level, but that's as far as it goes.
As far as table size, obviously the larger the table the less chance for clusters.
You keep on bringing up "mathematics," feel free to share any "mathematics" that proves your point. (other than just using the word)
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It's too bad name dropping does not substitute for content. You're a joker if you think 8 ball is comparable to rotation (15, 10, 9) in difficulty or complexity.
-roger
I'll summarize his math for you:
10 ball is more difficult than 9 ball (+1 ball)
15 ball rotation is more difficult than 10 ball (+5 balls)
Therefore, 8 ball is = 15 ball rotation (both 15 balls!!)
Get it?
-roger