Touch of Center

[ENGLISH!]

BRKNRUN,

I would agree with you that pool instruction seems to be lagging behind that of golf.

But I disagree that your four(4)components are all that can effect a golf swing or a cue stroke. There are a number of other aspects in each that can effect them. Yet those 4 components can be either conducive or inhibitive of a good swing & stroke but they are only a starting point & there is no one size fits all.

Regards,
Rick

 

[one stroke]

The only thing that matters is where the tip club bat stick and so on end up many golfers pool and baseball players have different swings setup ect..., Jack by no stretch of the imagination had the best swing of his era that probably was Watson and if you look at Arnie and Lee you would think they had the worst swings in golf yet all of them where great players because they delivered the club head to its intended target
Same thing goes for pool it's not how it gets there it's the fact that it gets there on its intended line
Yes some fundamentals offer a better chance of that happening but theirs more than one way to skin a cat


1

 

[ENGLISH!]

The only thing that matters is where the tip club bat stick and so on end up many golfers pool and baseball players have different swings setup ect..., Jack by no stretch of the imagination had the best swing of his era that probably was Watson and if you look at Arnie and Lee you would think they had the worst swings in golf yet all of them where great players because they delivered the club head to its intended target
Same thing goes for pool it's not how it gets there it's the fact that it gets there on its intended line
Yes some fundamentals offer a better chance of that happening but theirs more than one way to skin a cat

1

Fairly well stated.

I have seen nearly 100 pictures of different profession golfers with all kinds of different set ups & movements in their swings but one thing that almost all of them have in common is their body position & club position are nearly identical at the moment of impact. If you assigned stick lines to the body parts & shaft you would not be able to tell who's who.

I am not sure but I would certainly guess that the golf swing has been studied very much more than a cue stroke. Also, since a golf swing is much more dynamic than a cue stroke it was taught in a manner to get a desired outcome out of the flight of the ball which basically told what the club did prior to and through impact.

IMHO, in the cue sports it is the movements of the cue stick that tells what the body did to effect the cue stick that is important. One can not readily see the 'flight' of the cue ball without the aid of high speed slow motion cameras. I think one would need much intention related info for the cue ball path to be informative of success or failure.

Just my $0.02.

Regards,

 

[BRKNRUN]

BRKNRUN,

I would agree with you that pool instruction seems to be lagging behind that of golf.

But I disagree that your four(4)components are all that can effect a golf swing or a cue stroke. There are a number of other aspects in each that can effect them. Yet those 4 components can be either conducive or inhibitive of a good swing & stroke but they are only a starting point & there is no one size fits all.

Regards,
Rick

never said anything about one size fits all...everyone will vary in those components but they are the foundation of a golf swing and a pool stroke.....sure there are knowledge based aspects of both and feel in both....both of those are developed through feedback and experience...

and yes I agree it is a starting point....it better be anyway if you ever want to be truely consistent.


Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

 

[CJ Wiley]

Once you experience this NO ONE will ever be able to take it away from you

Lets say you are cutting a ball to the right. TOI would be a touch of right. You will get a small amount of cue ball deflection to the left, which in turn will cut the object ball more to the right. You would aim the object ball more towards the left of the pocket, but not totally all the way to the left. You would give yourself enough room that if you hit the ball in the center by accident, you would still make the ball in the left part of the pocket, since the cue didn't deflect as intended. If you hit the cue in the TOI like intended, you would hit the part of the pocket in which you aimed. If you went too far inside, you would have the rest of the right side of the pocket to accept the ball if you achieved too much deflection and over cut the ball.

Now, with standard center ball. If you aim center pocket, you will likely have enough room to still pocket the ball if you mis hit on the left or right, but IMO, the real problem comes when you are not aiming for center pocket. Now if you have to aim at the left side of the pocket, you will miss the ball if you miss hit the left side of the cue, deflect to the right, and over cut the ball to the left, hitting the point of the pocket.

This isn't quite right. You always calibrate your shots to hit center with TOI. When this is happening it means that you MUST be aligning to the INSIDE of the pocket. This makes sense, right? If you're slightly deflecting the cue ball and it's hitting the center you would {have to} be aligned to the first part of the pocket - hitting the 2nd part (the center), and if you hit further TOI you will hit the 3rd part of the pocket (outside portion).

This is the 3 Part Pocket System - I don't hit the CENTER POCKET by accident, it's intentional and it means I'm using the system correctly. If I don't hit the center on a shot I IMMEDIATELY adjust slightly TOI for the next shot, either by shot speed or cue ball targeting. My goal is to hit the center EVERY TIME and you will if you are aware of your cue ball targeting and understand how to adjust with the "Touch Of Inside" system.

Once you experience this NO ONE will ever be able to take it away from you and the Game will open up. I really want everyone to experience this for the first time and will answer questions until you do. The TOI technique is not difficult, it's just "locked" and you need to use the key and that key is the desire to improve.

Players are learning this technique all over the world now, it's the "real deal" and will make the Game a lot more enjoyable. I speak from experience, if I couldn't play this way I simply wouldn't play and take up rock climbing. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Many could beat Tiger Woods if he had to hit the golf ball perfectly straight

The only thing that matters is where the tip club bat stick and so on end up many golfers pool and baseball players have different swings setup ect..., Jack by no stretch of the imagination had the best swing of his era that probably was Watson and if you look at Arnie and Lee you would think they had the worst swings in golf yet all of them where great players because they delivered the club head to its intended target
Same thing goes for pool it's not how it gets there it's the fact that it gets there on its intended line
Yes some fundamentals offer a better chance of that happening but theirs more than one way to skin a cat


1

Yes, and all the golfers you mentioned "worked the golf ball" to create landing zones. No matter what their swings looked like they didn't try to hit a straight ball - none of them did, and none do today.

It's about creating margin of error by utilizing the natural laws and tenancies of the human body to create an advantage, not a disadvantage by going "against the grain".

Many could beat Tiger Woods if he had to hit the golf ball perfectly straight, just like many could beat any pool player if they had to hit the cue ball perfectly straight. The fact is the don't even try, there's a better way to play.....much better. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

if you want to beat Bustemante, Efren or Archer who have excellent foot work.

never said anything about one size fits all...everyone will vary in those components but they are the foundation of a golf swing and a pool stroke.....sure there are knowledge based aspects of both and feel in both....both of those are developed through feedback and experience...

and yes I agree it is a starting point....it better be anyway if you ever want to be truely consistent.


Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

I stressed this in my first 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' videos. "The Feet are the foundation of anyone's pool game," you can watch any of the champion players and I will bet anything that their feet placement is the same relative to their "shot line" ever time possible. The reason I know this is I do it and realize how important it is for consisitancy.

Guess what? They do it in golf, basketball (free throws), baseball hitting, tennis strokes, etc. The feet set up the chain of reaction up the body that establish how the upper body angles MUST BE (to the ball you're contacting).

When I check a player out to see how well they play, the FIRST think I do is watch their feet closely. They can't be a champion if they don't have good footwork. Back when I wanted to throw people off to how well I played I purposely had bad footwork and they were thrown off (at least for the time being)

In the advanced stages of teaching the TOI Technique I will match the student's left foot to their shot line. This will enable them to make slight adjustments without changing their upper body. This is very important if you want to have a chance to beat Bustemante, Efren or Archer who have excellent foot work.

 

[ENGLISH!]

never said anything about one size fits all...everyone will vary in those components but they are the foundation of a golf swing and a pool stroke.....sure there are knowledge based aspects of both and feel in both....both of those are developed through feedback and experience...
and yes I agree it is a starting point....it better be anyway if you ever want to be truely consistent.

Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

BRKNRUN,

I was not talking about just knowledge & feel. I am talking about other physical components. There are very many in a golf swing as it is a much more dynamic movement but there are others in cue sports as well.

I would say that if one has a conducive stance, grip, posture & alignment then one is well set up for a good cue stroke, but those alone are in no way a guarantee. Can one then deliver the cue tip to a 'point' on the cue ball with the cue stick along the proper line? Perhaps & perhaps not.

My disagreement is that you seem to imply that fixing one of your four(4) components or 2, etc. in whatever combination can get the desired goal accomplished. As I said, they can make it easier but it is no guarantee of reaching the goal.

Swinging one's hand perpendicular to the ground AND along a certain defined line does not sound so difficult, yet some seem incapable of doing so no matter what grip, stance, posture or alignment their body is in. That's my point of contention with your statement. There are more physical aspects than just those four(4). Then after that comes the mental, feel, etc.

Best Regards,

 

[one stroke]

Yes, and all the golfers you mentioned "worked the golf ball" to create landing zones. No matter what their swings looked like they didn't try to hit a straight ball - none of them did, and none do today.

It's about creating margin of error by utilizing the natural laws and tenancies of the human body to create an advantage, not a disadvantage by going "against the grain".

Many could beat Tiger Woods if he had to hit the golf ball perfectly straight, just like many could beat any pool player if they had to hit the cue ball perfectly straight. The fact is the don't even try, there's a better way to play.....much better. 'The Game is the Teacher'

That's where the saying comes from spin to win
Their are good golfers who hit the ball straight. Tom kite Fred Funk come to mind first but yes most play a intended shaped shot

however if you want to get down to the nuts and bolts of what separates the winners is putting and that I would say is more like pool than any other aspect and all the great putters putt straight and roll the ball true

1

 

[ENGLISH!]

That's where the saying comes from spin to win
Their are good golfers who hit the ball straight. Tom kite Fred Funk come to mind first but yes most play a intended shaped shot

however if you want to get down to the nuts and bolts of what separates the winners is putting and that I would say is more like pool than any other aspect and all the great putters putt straight and roll the ball true

1

Mr. stroke,

What exactly is your point?

Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

As long as you're open minded I have three putting questions.

That's where the saying comes from spin to win
Their are good golfers who hit the ball straight. Tom kite Fred Funk come to mind first but yes most play a intended shaped shot

however if you want to get down to the nuts and bolts of what separates the winners is putting and that I would say is more like pool than any other aspect and all the great putters putt straight and roll the ball true

1

Putting is a good example, and the dynamics are different than what I'm using to compare the zone targeting with the fade and draw.

As long as you're open minded I have some putting questions.

1) On a 6' downhill putt that breaks exactly one inch to the left where do you aim to give yourself the best opportunity to make it? Does this change if it's a uphill putt?

2) Do you always aim at the center of the hole? If not when, and why?

3) If given a choice would you rather your 5' putt break left to right, right to left or roll perfectly straight (I'm presuming your putt right handed)?

 

[one stroke]

Mr. stroke,

What exactly is your point?

Regards,

My point is their is more than one way to achieve a common goal it's very rare 2 people do things exactly the same yet the end results can be similar as long as the foundation is repeatable and fundamentally sound it can obtain the same results pretty elementary at the end of the day

1

 

[ENGLISH!]

My point is their is more than one way to achieve a common goal it's very rare 2 people do things exactly the same yet the end results can be similar as long as the foundation is repeatable and fundamentally sound it can obtain the same results pretty elementary at the end of the day

1

Agreed.

So what's the problem? Is anyone trying to force you to do something that you don't want to do?

If you're happy playing the way you're playing, all good & well.

Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

"elementary"

My point is their is more than one way to achieve a common goal it's very rare 2 people do things exactly the same yet the end results can be similar as long as the foundation is repeatable and fundamentally sound it can obtain the same results pretty elementary at the end of the day

1

You're got to be kidding. :groucho:

Answer those putting questions and we'll see right away.

 

[one stroke]

Putting is a good example, and the dynamics are different than what I'm using to compare the zone targeting with the fade and draw.

As long as you're open minded I have some putting questions.

1) On a 6' downhill putt that breaks exactly one inch to the left where do you aim to give yourself the best opportunity to make it? Does this change if it's a uphill putt?

2) Do you always aim at the center of the hole? If not when, and why?

3) If given a choice would you rather your 5' putt break left to right, right to left or roll perfectly straight (I'm presuming your putt right handed)?

1 that would depend on the speed of the green but generally I'm a aggressive putter I would play half the break and more speed leaving a uphill putt if I miss if its real fast I would pick a line and play right edge and try to die it in the hole

2. I very rarely aim at the hole I pick a line or spot usually half way and aim at that but I don't look at the hole until the ball is well in its way

3 perfectly straight putt I like best next would be right to left

1

 

[Icon of Sin]

I tried TOC over the weekend. Balls couldnt stayout!!!!! I'm throwing my money at the monitor!!!!!!!

 

[CJ Wiley]

favoring one side of the hole.

1 that would depend on the speed of the green but generally I'm a aggressive putter I would play half the break and more speed leaving a uphill putt if I miss if its real fast I would pick a line and play right edge and try to die it in the hole

2. I very rarely aim at the hole I pick a line or spot usually half way and aim at that but I don't look at the hole until the ball is well in its way

3 perfectly straight putt I like best next would be right to left

1

So you at least understand the concept of favoring one side of the hole. That's a good start, many people don't have that referential index that you have.

 

[one stroke]

Agreed.

So what's the problem? Is anyone trying to force you to do something that you don't want to do?

If you're happy playing the way you're playing, all good & well.

Regards,

The better question is what's your problem you bump this thread up to promote TOI when the thread is about TOC
Then you went on to promote it saying that you don't know how in the world anybody has played without it throwing yrs of lessons and money in

By all means tell Efren Shane Earl Dennis Francisco Johnny and all the other greats that they have been playing wrong all these yrs

I said that CJ is a very talented player and its my belief he could play with several systems and achieve similar results
When one of these systems brings a c player to pro speed I will be the first to jump in line until then I will believe what I always have and that's hours of playing dedication and talent is what makes a great player

1

 

[one stroke]

So you at least understand the concept of favoring one side of the hole. That's a good start, many people don't have that referential index that you have.

I play different sides of a pocket also depending on angle and English I'm obviously not your speed but I'm a good B player when I'm in gear at 53 I don't stand to get much better on limited time but I do tinker with these systems but I have yet to stick with just one I use different ones for different shots


1

 

[ENGLISH!]

The better question is what's your problem you bump this thread up to promote TOI when the thread is about TOC I did not bump the thread up to promote TOI. I just clarified that TOI is not about inside english spin.

Then you went on to promote it saying that you don't know how in the world anybody has played without it throwing yrs of lessons and money in. You must have me confused with someone else. I never said anything like that & I have never taken a lesson. In fact the most I have spent on pool instruction is $8 for Ray Martin's book for a friend & CJ's DVD.

By all means tell Efren Shane Earl Dennis Francisco Johnny and all the other greats that they have been playing wrong all these yrs Again, you're trying to put word's in my mouth. I've played with english the whole of my 46 years of playing since I was 13 years old.

I said that CJ is a very talented player and its my belief he could play with several systems and achieve similar results
When one of these systems brings a c player to pro speed I will be the first to jump in line until then I will believe what I always have and that's hours of playing dedication and talent is what makes a great player No one has said otherwise. CJ & others are just trying to speed up the learning curve.
1

You seem very upset & I don't understand why. Both I & CJ have agreed with some of your points. As I said before, if you're happy with the way you're playing, all good & well. No one is trying to force you to do anything. Put whatever you don't like or want to try on a shelf somewhere. You may want to pull it down at some time in the future or you may never think of it again. It's all up to you.

Keep in mind CJ is not just a talented player. He is a former World Champion & one of, if not the best gambling players of his time.

Is Efren, Shane, Earl, Dennnis, Fransico, or Johnny here right now trying to give back to the game by trying to help others play better by telling us what they do & how & why?

I'm not saying that they will not be doing that at some time in the future, but they are not here now & CJ is. How much longer he stays available for questions, I'm not sure. I think if I was him, I would have said adios by now & stop trying to help.

Regards