Touch of Center

vapoolplayer,

I am amazed at how illogical some can appear to be. My guess is that they have been scared off anything but center hit of the cue ball. Which is the hardest thing to do regardless of how consistent & repeatable one's stroke is.

Thing about it, one is trying to put the center milimeter of say a 13mm tip exactly on the center of a round ball. If anyone thinks that they are actually doing that on a consistant basis, I would probably say that they are delusional or have been brain washed.

However the pockets are bigger than the balls & that does provide a margin for error.

Regards to You,
 
TSW said:
So today I was getting whupped by a friend of mine. After missing a lot of shots in the first couple of sets, I recalled the "touch of inside" technique. As I understand it, TOI suggests putting just a tiny fraction of inside English on some (most?) shots to help increase pocketing accuracy. My understanding is that the suggested English is tiny, a nudge or 1/32nd of a tip or something of that nature.

Using that amount of English requires that you concentrate very precisely on your tip position. So I tried applying that level of focus to the tip position, but instead of cueing with a touch of inside English, I cued for center ball (or whatever English I needed for the shot). And my pocketing percentage went up. All of a sudden I was running out. I was also pocketing the ball in the part of the pocket I wanted to and planning precisely the kind of spin I wanted on the cue ball, so my position play improved. My confidence went up too. I'm no US Open champion, and I still missed some shots, but this certainly helped.

I call this approach "touch of center," or TOC. It requires focusing on your tip position down to about 1/32nd of a tip, and cueing wherever you otherwise would. Try it; you may like it.
Click to expand...

For the first two years of my pool career, I shot with NOTHING but centerball, top, and bottom. I started playing pool while I was in college. With centerball, I ran 42 balls in my second year and got to be really proficient at the game considering I played only 6 hours per week.

Soon after this I started using english and my game went way up.

Bottom line: I think you are limiting yourself with centerball all the time. You MUST be flexible and be able to hit inside and outside english. And above all, you must understand DEFLECTION. CJ Wiley's TOI explains this better than anything I have ever seen. Sure, I heard about deflection and I thought I knew what I was doing. But after 20 years of playing pool I never could figure out why I was missing, and this is what CJ says is so important - to answer the question "why?".

For my own progress report, after 3 weeks of using TOI I have fully integrated some TOI shots. I am not able to use inside every shot, but I practice this every day nonetheless. The hardest part for me is to get that feel for position coming off the object ball, but I still am still learning.
 
ENGLISH! said:
vapoolplayer,

I am amazed at how illogical some can appear to be. My guess is that they have been scared off anything but center hit of the cue ball. Which is the hardest thing to do regardless of how consistent & repeatable one's stroke is.

Thing about it, one is trying to put the center milimeter of say a 13mm tip exactly on the center of a round ball. If anyone thinks that they are actually doing that on a consistant basis, I would probably say that they are delusional or have been brain washed.

However the pockets are bigger than the balls & that does provide a margin for error.

Regards to You,
Click to expand...

The most popular thread on AZB is the funny pic thread........on a pool forum. I think this explains how "serious" the collective pool community really is about their game. :eek:
 
vapoolplayer said:
Then you still make the ball theoretically. You are aiming for the part of the pocket that gives you the most margin for error. If you hit it with center by accident it still goes, if you hit it further on the inside than intended, it still goes. If you are too far off the ball doesn't drop and you aimed correctly, your stroke is too flawed and you should work on that.

What CJ's TOI inside does by theory, is make you favor one side of the ball slightly, thus eliminating one set of possible errors.

Example:

When you cue on center axis, you could hit left, center, or right, because humans are unable to cue exactly where intended. This could cause you to miss because you cued on the left or right side of the ball. When you miss, unless you are extremely good at seeing exactly where the object ball went(at high speeds you won't), you won't know why you missed the shot.

With TOI, you are favoring the inside of the ball. So when you hit the ball, you will either hit Center, TOI, or inside. Theoretically all three of these hits will pocket the ball if you are using CJ's three part pocket system, if your stroke is good. You will also have a better idea why you missed a ball when you favor one side or the other.

I'm not sure why people have an issue understanding this and want to jump right in claiming "well if you can't hit center all the time, you can't hit TOI all the time and it is hence useless." Take a little time and give some logical consideration to the theory of what is being said.

I'm not a TOI advocate, but I understand the theory behind it, and it has some merit.
Click to expand...

This is a big misconception. There is only x amount of unused area of a pocket opening. This amount is determined by the ball size and pocket opening. There is no way to increase this area. What is being done is moving how much area on each side of the ball there is as it enters the pocket.

A little math. Pocket opening 5" and ball size 2.25. 5-2.25=2.75 which is the unused area of the pocket as the pocket enters it. If the OB enters the pocket in the its center, there will be 1.375 inches on each side of the ball as it goes in the pocket.

With hitting the center of the pocket, you can be off to one side or the other of direction of travel line to the pocket and the ball will still go in.

By aiming for one side of the pocket, the 1.375 inches is now on just one side of the ball. This means you no longer can only be off to one side of the direction of travel line to the pocket and still have the ball go in.

You may perceive this notion of increasing the margin of error, but its not real. You are just fooling yourself and not really thinking about the details of a ball actually going through a pocket opening from all the various possible angles to do so.

I must the only person that can hit center ball. Seems this is a unattainable skills for the majority or is it just another aspect of being too lazy to properly practice to be able to hit the CB anywhere you want from any shooting position?
 
duckie said:
This is a big misconception. There is only x amount of unused area of a pocket opening. This amount is determined by the ball size and pocket opening. There is no way to increase this area. What is being done is moving how much area on each side of the ball there is as it enters the pocket.

A little math. Pocket opening 5" and ball size 2.25. 5-2.25=2.75 which is the unused area of the pocket as the pocket enters it. If the OB enters the pocket in the its center, there will be 1.375 inches on each side of the ball as it goes in the pocket.

With hitting the center of the pocket, you can be off to one side or the other of direction of travel line to the pocket and the ball will still go in.

By aiming for one side of the pocket, the 1.375 inches is now on just one side of the ball. This means you no longer can only be off to one side of the direction of travel line to the pocket and still have the ball go in.

You may perceive this notion of increasing the margin of error, but its not real. You are just fooling yourself and not really thinking about the details of a ball actually going through a pocket opening from all the various possible angles to do so.

I must the only person that can hit center ball. Seems this is a unattainable skills for the majority or is it just another aspect of being too lazy to properly practice to be able to hit the CB anywhere you want from any shooting position?
Click to expand...

My post had nothing to do with expanding the pocket size, or even the margin of error in pocket size. Please read again before you start rambling off basic arithmetic. You have a very bad habit in your posts of not having any clue what someone is saying before your start randomly spouting off gibberish.

The margin of error is expanded in ones ability to not correctly cue where intended. Humans are not capable of perfection in this area, so instead of aspiring for the impossible, you take what you are able to do and you make it better.

So......you can shoot the cue ball exactly on center, down the length of the table with a firm shot and it comes back to your cue tip exactly on center at least 90/100 times? Post a video of you doing this 100 times, make sure its a firm stroke.

After you post this video, I'll acknowledge you can hit center ball.
 
Last edited:
duckie said:
This is a big misconception. There is only x amount of unused area of a pocket opening. This amount is determined by the ball size and pocket opening. There is no way to increase this area. What is being done is moving how much area on each side of the ball there is as it enters the pocket.

A little math. Pocket opening 5" and ball size 2.25. 5-2.25=2.75 which is the unused area of the pocket as the pocket enters it. If the OB enters the pocket in the its center, there will be 1.375 inches on each side of the ball as it goes in the pocket.

With hitting the center of the pocket, you can be off to one side or the other of direction of travel line to the pocket and the ball will still go in.

By aiming for one side of the pocket, the 1.375 inches is now on just one side of the ball. This means you no longer can only be off to one side of the direction of travel line to the pocket and still have the ball go in.

You may perceive this notion of increasing the margin of error, but its not real. You are just fooling yourself and not really thinking about the details of a ball actually going through a pocket opening from all the various possible angles to do so.

I must the only person that can hit center ball. Seems this is a unattainable skills for the majority or is it just another aspect of being too lazy to properly practice to be able to hit the CB anywhere you want from any shooting position?
Click to expand...

Greg,

I understand what you are trying to say. However, as I said earlier, if anyone thinks that they are putting the center millimeter of a 13 mm tip on the center axis of a round ball with any real consistancy they are delusional. The pocket size to ball size margin of error you refer to is advantages.

The 'increased margin of error' is not at the pocket, but at the CB. Can you aim or target an OB to mis the pocket for a center CB hit & still pocket the ball?

The answer is yes, if you accidentally hit the inside of the CB & squirt it outside to add cut on the OB. If you pocket that ball you could not even know that your alignment was off & you LUCKILY hit off center to the correct side that allowed the ball to be pocketed.

With the TOI method, you can mis the intended target, just inside of center on the CB, on either side & still pocket the ball. That is where the 'increased' margin of error is.

I sincerely hope you hit the center every time you intend to do so. I hope you never mis align to one side of the pocket & then mis that exact center on the CB to the side that suirts it to the pocket side & cuts the ball out of the pocket.

If you're happy with how you're playing then all is good & well for you.

Best Regards & Best Wishes to You,
 
I think the argument is this, If you aim center of the cue ball, but you can only hit the center 1 in three tries.. 1) center, 2) a little left of center and 3) a little right of center. You will get 3 different cueball tracks due to throw - deflection...
CJ says aim a touch of inside of center and you will always throw - deflect the same...

Is there not 3 different sides to a touch of inside? 1) a touch of inside (center of your aim point) 2) a touch left of inside (you missed your mark left) and 3) a touch right of inside ( you missed you mark to the right)..

There would be 3 different cue ball tracks still..
I can agree with controlling the collision, and the fact that controlling the amount of turn on the cue ball at collision effects both the cue ball and the object ball paths..
 
pool101 said:
I think the argument is this, If you aim center of the cue ball, but you can only hit the center 1 in three tries.. 1) center, 2) a little left of center and 3) a little right of center. You will get 3 different cueball tracks due to throw - deflection...
CJ says aim a touch of inside of center and you will always throw - deflect the same...

Is there not 3 different sides to a touch of inside? 1) a touch of inside (center of your aim point) 2) a touch left of inside (you missed your mark left) and 3) a touch right of inside ( you missed you mark to the right)..

There would be 3 different cue ball tracks still..
I can agree with controlling the collision, and the fact that controlling the amount of turn on the cue ball at collision effects both the cue ball and the object ball paths..
Click to expand...

When you shoot the CB firm, with follow through just above center, or draw shot, (as long as CB is rolling when it hits OB) most likely there will be no throw due to the firm hit , and TOI, or TOO usually does not have much of squirt and english have no effect on OB. I agree CB will loose its outside spin to no spin or inside spin. However, if you stun the OB sure there will be throw.
If you hit CB soft, then yes there will be swerve, throw, EIT..etc.
 
I always try to aim center of the opening, which is usually center of the pocket but not always.
If speed keeps the ball on track when usind TOI, would that same speed not apply to a center aimed ball?
 
I'd just like to add to what vapoolplayer said.

Even if you mis the intended TOI target by hitting the center of the CB, you still pocket the ball but the CB will pick up some outside running spin & will not 'float'. It will just be a normal center CB hit that goes into the full hit side of the pocket.

Now if 'aimed/aligned' as CJ suggests to the full hit side of the pocket & you do cross over & hit the outside of the CB you could still pocket the ball with outside english if the result of the faulty stroke resulted in being a BHE or FHE alignment. I'm not saying that it would work for every shot but it could work on quite a few & would therefore add to the margin of error, although it would be a lucky shot just like all of those made when the intention was to hit center CB & a mis one way or the other actually happend.
 
Last edited:
CJ Wiley said:
The difference if taking one side "out of play," if you try to hit center you can't do this.

It's like in golf, Jack Nicklaus said he took the left side of the golf course "out of play," it's the same principal. Golfers rarely try to hit a straight shot, they are always "working" the ball in one direction. Pool's "ball pocketing," is just a miniature version of this same golf principal.
inar03_jack_nickaus.jpg


We're teaching a lot of people to do it now and the results speak for themselves. One of my players just ran 58 playing straight pool, and a month ago his high run was 19. Doing this increases the "pocket zone," therefore increasing confidence and the firmer you hit the TOI Shot, the more accurate it is (to a certain point of course). I'm getting letters every day from different players that are enjoying the similar outcomes. The TOI is the "real deal," and is exactly what I used to do to gain an advantage in professional competition. I'll start posting more of the testimonials at www.cjwiley.com
Click to expand...

Unless of course he was playing at Augusta. Then he would play a hook or draw.

It has a LOT more to do with the course he was playing than JUST taking one side of the course out of the picture.

TOI is a great mental process to use to play pool! It requires a more precise hit on the cue ball and a smaller well defined target. And that is why it works for so many. It ain't rocket surgery! Err brain science? Ahh nm!

Ken

p.s. I ordered and paid for my DVD on Jan. 25th. How long must I wait to receive what I paid for without word of delays?
 
Actually Jack always preferred the FADE

Okie said:
Unless of course he was playing at Augusta. Then he would play a hook or draw.

It has a LOT more to do with the course he was playing than JUST taking one side of the course out of the picture.

TOI is a great mental process to use to play pool! It requires a more precise hit on the cue ball and a smaller well defined target. And that is why it works for so many. It ain't rocket surgery! Err brain science? Ahh nm!

Ken

p.s. I ordered and paid for my DVD on Jan. 25th. How long must I wait to receive what I paid for without word of delays?
Click to expand...

Actually Jack always preferred the FADE, and used it to "take the left side of the course out of play," (he's quoted to saying this) and many professional golfers FADE the ball consistently for more control. The HOOK promotes more roll due to slightly more "topspin" and is actually a more natural shot provided your are swinging inside/out, as opposed to outside/in that produces and fade or usually a slice with beginner golfers.

Despite popular belief, golfers have a favorite shot they try to hit most of time too. I worked with Hank Haney, Tiger Wood's swing coach of 5 years and he gave me golf lessons and I gave him pool lessons for two straight years. He ended up working with Tiger full time and I stopped playing golf for awhile. I'm getting the urge to pick that up again and maybe Hank and I can do that something relating pool to golf on the GOLF CHANNEL. His show "The Haney Project" is the Golf Channel's #1 Show last I checked. 'The Hank is the Teacher' ;) CJ Wiley
HaneyProject-thumb-400x225.png
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, whatever "Touch" someone decides on, it's very important to have a very solid bridge hand. I feel like I'm pressing my finger into the slate when I'm playing other champion players. I have a few different ways I play, and it varies slightly with the level of player, and when I HAVE to run out every time I focus on hitting a specific part of the cue ball, acceleratioin, and being VERY SOLID in my hands. Whatever you do, however you choose to play, one thing is for sure - YOU MUST CONTROL THE CUE.

I've explained in a variety of ways why I favor one side of center and one of them is to simply take one side of the cue ball "out of play". When you hit right of center the cue ball veers left - when you hit the cue ball on the left side of center it veers right.

Doesn't it make sense to eliminate one of these factors so you KNOW FOR SURE which way it's deflecting. Think about it, is it better for your cue ball to potentially go two ways or just one??? 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply CJ.....I reconstructed my game last year and my form is largely based on golf techniques I have converted to pool and techniques from your original DVD....

your explanation helps...I tend to relate to golf analogies ...I will have to play around with this...there are some shots that I tend to miss the same way every time...so I usually favor a thinner or thicker hit on those shots....(usually shots down the rail)....I will play around with TOI on those shots instead of aim adjustment and see what happens....I will see if it helps on those shots..

As you say it is always good to have an extra arrow in the quiver.



Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android
 
I find this Golf comparison interesting I was a low single digit hcp player for yrs and I have never have seen much coalition between the 2 sports set ups different target line is different golf every thing runs thru the non dominate side. I just don't see it
I can see gun shooting or bow shooting in stance breathing and single point focus but that's about it


1
 
CJ Wiley said:
Actually Jack always preferred the FADE, and used it to "take the left side of the course out of play," (he's quoted to saying this) and many professional golfers FADE the ball consistently for more control. The HOOK promotes more roll due to slightly more "topspin" and is actually a more natural shot provided your are swinging inside/out, as opposed to outside/in that produces and fade or usually a slice with beginner golfers.

Despite popular belief, golfers have a favorite shot they try to hit most of time too. I worked with Hank Haney, Tiger Wood's swing coach of 5 years and he gave me golf lessons and I gave him pool lessons for two straight years. He ended up working with Tiger full time and I stopped playing golf for awhile. I'm getting the urge to pick that up again and maybe Hank and I can do that something relating pool to golf on the GOLF CHANNEL. His show "The Haney Project" is the Golf Channel's #1 Show last I checked. 'The Hank is the Teacher' ;) CJ Wiley
HaneyProject-thumb-400x225.png
Click to expand...

Jack Nicklaus changed his shot shape before the Master's because Augusta favors a draw. There is a reason he won 6 of them. Read Golf My Way by Mr. Nicklaus.

To be honest, I get a bit sickened every time you bring up Hank Haney. I have worked with dozens of teachers more qualified than him. Show them some respect by not glorifying this tv star.
 
Last edited:
one stroke said:
I find this Golf comparison interesting I was a low single digit hcp player for yrs and I have never have seen much coalition between the 2 sports set ups different target line is different golf every thing runs thru the non dominate side. I just don't see it I can see gun shooting or bow shooting in stance breathing and single point focus but that's about it
Click to expand...

I have found some things that not only cross over but I think some of the things taught in golf are missing in fundamental pool teachings.... The major thing is...there is really only 4 major components that you have control over for either golf or pool.....grip, stance, posture and alignment....the stroke or swing can't really be controled...they are a outcome of of proper set up....set up right in either sport and the swing/stroke just happens.....if you want to change your stroke...you adjust the components
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top