ERO or not?

S

SKUNKBOY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In my league (WPA rules observed with some variations), the rule says: an ERO (Eight Ball Runout) is defined as upon your first attempt at the table, if there are 15 balls on the table and you successfully run all of your chosen group and legally pocket the eight ball, you earn an ERO.

Here's the situation: I broke, made the eight ball and scratched. By rule, it is now my opponents choice to spot the eight ball and continue with ball-in-hand behind the headstring or rerack and break himself. He chose to spot the eight ball and ran out.

My question: Does the option situation remove the opportunity for an ERO as defined because when he first approached the table, there were only 14 balls (the eight ball was down) and his choice of which option was his first choice at the table? Both sides were argued, didn't effect the outcome of the game or match, just a curiosity.

It doesn't really matter to me in this case because it only bennefits the second player in as much as he is credited with an ERO. But at the end of the year, there will be a bonus paid for most ERO's, so it could have an effect on that outcome. Just trying to research this obscure ruling so we actually might have an answer next time it happens.

Isn't it amazing how many little things happen that the rules 'almost' cover but just not quite. And then listen to the spin some put on the rules to bend it in thieir own direction.

Thanks...Ken
 
It's a run out. You can try to twist the rules /words on this. But when 2nd player started his run,,there was 15 balls on the table. And his first attempt at the table.
 
?? The eight was down "when he first approached the table"?

You don't shoot when the 8's off the table, ever. You also don't shoot until moving balls have stopped moving and spottable balls get spotted.

When the dust settled, there's 15 balls on the table. What happens before the dust settles isn't relevant.
 
SKUNKBOY said:
In my league (WPA rules observed with some variations), the rule says: an ERO (Eight Ball Runout) is defined as upon your first attempt at the table, if there are 15 balls on the table and you successfully run all of your chosen group and legally pocket the eight ball, you earn an ERO.

Here's the situation: I broke, made the eight ball and scratched. By rule, it is now my opponents choice to spot the eight ball and continue with ball-in-hand behind the headstring or rerack and break himself. He chose to spot the eight ball and ran out.

My question: Does the option situation remove the opportunity for an ERO as defined because when he first approached the table, there were only 14 balls (the eight ball was down) and his choice of which option was his first choice at the table? Both sides were argued, didn't effect the outcome of the game or match, just a curiosity.

It doesn't really matter to me in this case because it only bennefits the second player in as much as he is credited with an ERO. But at the end of the year, there will be a bonus paid for most ERO's, so it could have an effect on that outcome. Just trying to research this obscure ruling so we actually might have an answer next time it happens.

Isn't it amazing how many little things happen that the rules 'almost' cover but just not quite. And then listen to the spin some put on the rules to bend it in thieir own direction.

Thanks...Ken
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It's an ERO. Don't think too long on this. When his first attempt started, there were 15 balls on the table.

Somehow, you're equating "attempt" with "approach." Don't.

Freddie
 
If you were using a shot clock, when would you start it? Before the 8 was spotted, or after the 8 was spotted? His turn doesn't start until the clock starts. All 15 were on the table at the start of his turn.
 
Sorry this is a bit OT, but the consistent comment about 15 balls make me ask...Does it matter if there are 15 balls on the table? For example, what if you make 2 balls on the break (not including the 8B) & scratch. I assume those balls stay down. When he comes to the table, he has BIH & runs out. Does he get the ERO or not?
 
mosconiac said:
Sorry this is a bit OT, but the consistent comment about 15 balls make me ask...Does it matter if there are 15 balls on the table? For example, what if you make 2 balls on the break (not including the 8B) & scratch. I assume those balls stay down. When he comes to the table, he has BIH & runs out. Does he get the ERO or not?
Click to expand...

I'd say no, but that's only an opinion.

Freddie <~~~ just like noses I supposes
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. This mirrors what was discussed and I just wanted to get a few more opinions on the subject. BTW, we did decide to allow the ERO, it made sense. Just a technical question...those do come up once in a while.

Mark, yes, you need all 15 balls on the table. Unfortunately, you're example is an negative side effect of the rule. When we made the rule, that situation was discussed as well as some other senerios. One suggestion was to allow for a minimum of 13 balls on the table at you first attemp, another was that if you made your 7 balls and the eight ball in one turn (no matter if there were only 8 balls on the table or 15), it would be an ERO. We decided to go with the most strict rule.

That was a long time ago and talk has been continued to revisit this rule as well as a couple others within our league. I think it might be time to do that.

Thanks guys, you've more or less solidified the answer.

L8R...Ken
 
I don't know what the answer is but I don't see how any 'runout' reward is valid when it began with ball in hand.

Just my opinion.
 
Why is there even a total ball number needed for an ERO? That makes no sense at all. If I get up and break, make 2 solids, but choose stripes and run out, does that count? If I break and scratch, make a solid and a stripe, my opponent gets up and runs out, why would that not be an ERO? A run out is a run out if it's your first chance at the table. Am I missing something??
 
tank69 said:
Why is there even a total ball number needed for an ERO? That makes no sense at all. If I get up and break, make 2 solids, but choose stripes and run out, does that count? If I break and scratch, make a solid and a stripe, my opponent gets up and runs out, why would that not be an ERO? A run out is a run out if it's your first chance at the table. Am I missing something??
Click to expand...

The E in ERO stands for 8.

Jeff Livingston
 
Ero

mosconiac said:
Sorry this is a bit OT, but the consistent comment about 15 balls make me ask...Does it matter if there are 15 balls on the table? For example, what if you make 2 balls on the break (not including the 8B) & scratch. I assume those balls stay down. When he comes to the table, he has BIH & runs out. Does he get the ERO or not?
Click to expand...

No ero in the league i play in
 
chefjeff said:
The E in ERO stands for 8.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

Well color me stupid! Honestly, all I thought it meant was that you got up to the table and in one turn, ran out your side...8 balls or not. Again, I don't understand why you should be penalized if multiple balls are made...you get out, you get out.
 
I think the total ball count theory is based on the idea that some runouts are so easy it almost shouldn't count.
This especially comes up in 9b. If I break and run 2 balls, then combo the 3-9, is it a runout?
What about if it's the 8-9?

In 8b if he makes 5 solids, scratches, and you take BIH on solids and run your 3 balls to win, do you call it a runout?

To me, it's pretty simple. If you break and the other guy never got to shoot it's a break'n'run, regardless of whether it was easy or hard, though I won't call a 9-on-the-snap a break'n'run since there's no "Run" part.

If the other guy breaks and it's either dry or a foul, and he never gets back to the table, you ran out, again it doesn't matter whether it's easy or hard.
 
tank69 said:
Well color me stupid! Honestly, all I thought it meant was that you got up to the table and in one turn, ran out your side...8 balls or not. Again, I don't understand why you should be penalized if multiple balls are made...you get out, you get out.
Click to expand...

Because it is less than 8, as in EIGHT BALL runout. You don't get penalized, you just don't get the nifty little pin or get counted for an ERO. You still win the game.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
The E in ERO stands for 8.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

You know what? I knew the E stood for 8, but it's like a fog has cleared and it makes all kinds of sense.

B&R = Break and Run
ERO - Eight ball run out (as in there 8 balls that that the non-breaker has to run out).

Wow, today is a GREAT day!

Freddie <~~~ so... if someone scratches on the break, makes two solids and the incoming shooter decides to shoot the stripes?
 
Cornerman said:
You know what? I knew the E stood for 8, but it's like a fog has cleared and it makes all kinds of sense.

B&R = Break and Run
ERO - Eight ball run out (as in there 8 balls that that the non-breaker has to run out).

Wow, today is a GREAT day!

Freddie <~~~ so... if someone scratches on the break, makes two solids and the incoming shooter decides to shoot the stripes?
Click to expand...

No ERO for him, just the win.

ERO are mostly for bragging rights. The win is great and all, but throwing a zero onto your opponent's average can help his team beat one of your better, rival teams because you might have lowered your opponent's handicap with the skunking you gave him.
 
Cornerman said:
You know what? I knew the E stood for 8, but it's like a fog has cleared and it makes all kinds of sense.

B&R = Break and Run
ERO - Eight ball run out (as in there 8 balls that that the non-breaker has to run out).
Click to expand...

I'm glad I wasn't the only one! :)
 
Part of the reasoning for there having to be 15 balls to start with is...would you give a guy that made his 7 object balls and the eight with nothing in the way (those were the only balls on the table) the same credit as you would a guy that runs all of his object balls and the eight ball when there was considerable traffic on the table (namely the other guys balls)? We didn't want to, so we chose to make it hard to get an ERO.

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it...hey, didn't I just quote somebody there? That sure sounds familiar.

Thanks for all the replies, debate, arguments and discusion. I'm glad this didn't turn out to be one of those..."YOU F#&*)@%$ IDIOT" discusions.

L8R...Ken
 
I thought ERO was for Earned Run Out. The 'earned' part being that all balls were on the table to begin with. I couldn't find where on the BCA or WPA sites that they even mention an ERO.
 
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