Cue Tips with CJ WILEY - Drawing the Ball

BeiberLvr said:
You can easily find plenty of videos on Youtube of pros stroking the cue straight without dropping their elbow. You can also find videos of pros that do.

I'm not telling you or anyone else to not drop your elbow. I'm simply stating a fact that doing so does not give a player any special advantage.

That's as clear as I can make my point.
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No offense, but you've made no point. You mention no specific Youtube of pros supposedly stroking the cue in a straught line without dropping their elbow.

One can not even take the cue back past the extenstion of the wrist 'in a straight line' without the elbow moving some & one can not put the tip past the extension of the wrist in the forward direction in front 'in a straight line' without the elbow moving.

Think about it. If the butt is coming up at all going back then the cue is not moving in a straight line & if the butt is comig up then the tip is going down. When the butt comes back down the tip is going up. If the butt comes up on the 'finish' or follow through then the tip is going down.

To make any 'real length' of 'straight' stroke, the elbow must move down on the back stroke then up & then back down. Otherwise the stroke is either very short or it is rocking.

Regards,
 
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BeiberLvr said:
Most of the instructors on here would agree with CJ. As he said, the most important thing is delivering the cue in a straight line. The instructors (from what I've read in the past) aren't against the exaggerated follow through with elbow drop. They just won't teach it, and the reason is two-fold.

1. It has no extra physical effect on the CB.
2. Without hours and hours of practice, it's much more difficult to cue in a straight line.

If you [not you, Rick] have an exaggerated follow through and elbow drop, and tend to miss shot often, that's probably one of the reasons.

I compare it to being able to talk on the phone while driving, and not getting into an accident. It's an "advanced", albeit, unnecessary skill. The reason most instructors don't teach the elbow drop is the same reason you don't learn how to talk and drive when you first get your license.
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I'm not sure were you got your information that instructors don't teach the elbow drop. I teach the elbow drop stroke to anyone who wants to learn. And no, I don't just teach it after impact. I also teach it before impact.
 
No offense but if he did, would you take the time to look at them?

Take a look at any video of Allison Fisher.

ENGLISH! said:
No offense, but you've made no point. You mention no specific Youtube of pros supposedly stroking the cue in a straught line without dropping their elbow.

One can not even take the cue back past the extenstion of the wrist 'in a straight line' without the elbow moving some & one can not put the tip past the extension of the wrist in the forward direction in front 'in a straight line' without the elbow moving.

Think about it. If the butt is coming up at all going back then the cue is not moving in a straight line & if the butt is comig up then the tip is going down. When the butt comes back down the tip is going up. If the butt comes up on the 'finish' or follow through then the tip is going down.

To make any 'real length' of 'straight' stroke, the elbow must move down on the back stroke then up & then back down. Otherwise the stroke is either very short or it is rocking.

Regards,
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elbow

Hi, I would say that there is ton of vids on players that don´t move the elbow, if we don´t count a minimal move that isnt´t visible that is.
Look at all the top snooker players.

However I´m not going into what´s best here, just a observation.

I only concern to make the tip/shaft follow after the hit in a pararell, or slightly downwards motion, the body does the rest. Imagine if we would think about all the muscles we use an when to use them when we walk, catch a ball etc. Just give the thought to the old precious brain and the body will follow.

For myself I seldom use the elbow so much, mainly the wrist that breaks to produce what I want, - if that make sense?

Cheers

Chrippa
 
FranCrimi said:
I'm not sure were you got your information that instructors don't teach the elbow drop. I teach the elbow drop stroke to anyone who wants to learn. And no, I don't just teach it after impact. I also teach it before impact.
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I said, most, not all.
 
ENGLISH! said:
No offense, but you've made no point. You mention no specific Youtube of pros supposedly stroking the cue in a straught line without dropping their elbow.

One can not even take the cue back past the extenstion of the wrist 'in a straight line' without the elbow moving some & one can not put the tip past the extension of the wrist in the forward direction in front 'in a straight line' without the elbow moving.

Think about it. If the butt is coming up at all going back then the cue is not moving in a straight line & if the butt is comig up then the tip is going down. When the butt comes back down the tip is going up. If the butt comes up on the 'finish' or follow through then the tip is going down.

To make any 'real length' of 'straight' stroke, the elbow must move down on the back stroke then up & then back down. Otherwise the stroke is either very short or it is rocking.

Regards,
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Sorry, but I'm not going to do your research for you.

Is the elbow drop a bad thing (if done correctly)? Nope.

Does it add any extra action to the CB that otherwise might not happen without an elbow drop? Nope.

Do you have to drop your elbow to play at a high level? Not at all.
 
Chrippa said:
Hi, I would say that there is ton of vids on players that don´t move the elbow, if we don´t count a minimal move that isnt´t visible that is.
Look at all the top snooker players.

However I´m not going into what´s best here, just a observation.

I only concern to make the tip/shaft follow after the hit in a pararell, or slightly downwards motion, the body does the rest. Imagine if we would think about all the muscles we use an when to use them when we walk, catch a ball etc. Just give the thought to the old precious brain and the body will follow.

For myself I seldom use the elbow so much, mainly the wrist that breaks to produce what I want, - if that make sense?

Cheers

Chrippa
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If moving more than the range of the wrist...

small stroke, small movement, larger stroke, larger movement...

if the cue is actually moving in a straight line & not rocking up & down.

Sounds like you have a good attitude.

Regards,
 
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Tony_in_MD said:
No offense but if he did, would you take the time to look at them?

Take a look at any video of Allison Fisher.
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Like a golf ball in golf, the cue stick is the telling factor. If the cue moves beyond the range of the wrist's ability to allow the movement being straight & the cue actually moves in a straight line, it is very likely that the elbow moves unless of course the whole body is moving.

If the body is still & the cue stick moves beyond the ability of the wrist to allow the move it in a striaght line then the elbow moves, both on the back swing & the forward swing. Small stroke = small movement. Larger stroke = larger movement.

We can not keep taking things out of context. Certain parameters are connected.

With the body still, on a full length stroke, how can the cue move IN A STRAIGHT LINE without the elbow moving?

In a full length stroke, with the body still, if the elbow does not move, then the cue stick is not moving on a straight line but instead the butt end is rocking up & down & back up again & the tip is rocking down & up & back down again.

Can certain length strokes be made straight without the elbow moving? Yes, those within the limits of the wrist to allow such.

One's grip style can either enhance or inhibit the range of straight motion before the elbow is required to move, given that the rest of the body is still.

I have seen Allison Fisher play on television & have never noticed what would be classified as a true 'pendulum' stroke. If so, it was too small of a stroke to notice. But usually her cue is travelling straight as it slides along her chin. There is no guarantee that she has not tried a different stroke at some time but I am certainly not aware of such.

Naturally, all of the above is JMHO.
 
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BeiberLvr said:
Sorry, but I'm not going to do your research for you. I'm not doing any research, I don't need any.

Is the elbow drop a bad thing (if done correctly)? Nope. Agreed.

Does it add any extra action to the CB that otherwise might not happen without an elbow drop? Nope. That may or may not be true depending on the technique but I will certainly agree that there is more than one way to skin a cat but the results may not be exactly the same, since the parameters are different.

Do you have to drop your elbow to play at a high level? Not at all.
I think that certain individuals could even play at a pro level. But I don't think that that is even the question. The question to me is can one reach one's full potential & play successfuly under pressue with a stroke that is not truely straight & rocks up & down along the vertical plane..
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Sorry, I just disagreed a bit with one of your statements. I was just trying to discuss the differences.

Regards & Best Wishes to You,
 
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BeiberLvr said:
I said, most, not all.
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Good. Glad you made that crystal clear, then. I was confused by your wording and whether or not you continued to mean the word 'most' as you moved through your paragraph.

To address the word 'most': I'm not so sure that 'most' is accurate. Lots of people teach pool. Many of them aren't of that rigid school of thought.

The people who post here are just a small bit compared to what's really out there.
 
Mark Avlon said:
What are the advantages of an elbow drop before contact? What are the disadvantages?
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No offense meant, but isn't that a rather odd question for an advanced level instructor to be asking a master level instructor in a public forum?
 
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Watch Allison and you will see how the cue can move in a straight line without the elbow moving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LIAdzJnFQM

or here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A65VWWtzI9k&list=UUOVP4Wmcp20VIQkB0ssPWnw&index=34

or this man with some of the best mechanics I have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQSmvfbHWg&list=UUk6Ns54af47rPzyNvOUnHDA&index=12


ENGLISH! said:
Like a golf ball in golf, the cue stick is the telling factor. If the cue moves beyond the range of the wrist's ability to allow the movement being straight & the cue actually moves in a straight line, it is very likely that the elbow moves unless of course the whole body is moving.

If the body is still & the cue stick moves beyond the ability of the wrist to allow the move it in a striaght line then the elbow moves, both on the back swing & the forward swing. Small stroke = small movement. Larger stroke = larger movement.

We can not keep taking things out of context. Certain parameters are connected.

With the body still, on a full length stroke, how can the cue move IN A STRAIGHT LINE without the elbow moving?

In a full length stroke, with the body still, if the elbow does not move, then the cue stick is not moving on a straight line but instead the butt end is rocking up & down & back up again & the tip is rocking down & up & back down again.

Can certain length strokes be made straight without the elbow moving? Yes, those within the limits of the wrist to allow such.

One's grip style can either enhance or inhibit the range of straight motion before the elbow is required to move, given that the rest of the body is still.

I have seen Allison Fisher play on television & have never noticed what would be classified as a true 'pendulum' stroke. If so, it was too small of a stroke to notice. But usually her cue is travelling straight as it slides along her chin. There is no guarantee that she has not tried a different stroke at some time but I am certainly not aware of such.

Naturally, all of the above is JMHO.
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Tony_in_MD said:
Watch Allison and you will see how the cue can move in a straight line without the elbow moving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LIAdzJnFQM The first shot I watched right after 20:30 mark her elbow dropped nearly 4 inches. I stopped watching..
or here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A65VWWtzI9k&list=UUOVP4Wmcp20VIQkB0ssPWnw&index=34
Why do you direct me to an instruction video that is talking about the pendulum stoke? Obviously we are not taling about the elbow drop within the confines of that prescribed stroke.
or this man with some of the best mechanics I have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQSmvfbHWg&list=UUk6Ns54af47rPzyNvOUnHDA&index=12

Again, the first shot I watch is the rack break ball shot & he drops elbow. Again I stopped watching.
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No offense meant.

But,

You are an instructor. Why can't you explain how the cue can move straight with no rocking on a full stroke past the limits that the wrist grip connention can allow such where the elbow does not move without throwing out YouTube videos with no specific times of any shots. I am being perfectly honest in my comments. The first two shots I watched their elbows dropped. Why should I waste my time looking for what you say is there. If it is there, direct me to it & I'll comment.

But as I said, why do you need a video as an example where we might disagree on what each of us is seeing. Simply explain it if you can. I do not even know why this has gone in this direction. It is obvious that we are basically talking about two(2) different strokes. By definition, as I understand it & why it is named the pendulum stroke is that the hand & thus the cue moves on a 'pendulum' arch & not a straight line.

I'm open to definition correction by explanation. IHMO as I think it is defined the cue does not move in a straight line.

As I said in an another post we can not keep taking things out of context & forgetting certain parameters.

Regards,
 
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So maybe her arm got tired on one shot, or maybe she got lazy.

The only way to know is to ask her.

I thought the illustration would be good to show you how the elbow can be still through the full range of motion. He even had a video of a 2X length of the table draw shot done with a pendulum stroke and a still elbow. You know Rick the kind of shot that some say can only be done with a big elbow drop to extend the follow through, and using a soft tip so that it grabs the ball more providing more spin.......

Sorry to say he had some background music on it that youtube won't allow in the US. So we cannot see it any more.

At this point in the discussion, I don't know what you want to know anymore.

ENGLISH! said:
I'm workig on it.
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Tony_in_MD said:
So maybe her arm got tired on one shot, or maybe she got lazy.

The only way to know is to ask her.

I thought the illustration would be good to show you how the elbow can be still through the full range of motion. He even had a video of a 2X length of the table draw shot done with a pendulum stroke and a still elbow. You know Rick the kind of shot that some say can only be done with a big elbow drop to extend the follow through, and using a soft tip so that it grabs the ball more providing more spin.......

Sorry to say he had some background music on it that youtube won't allow in the US. So we cannot see it any more.

At this point in the discussion, I don't know what you want to know anymore.
Click to expand...

I am not looking to 'know' anything specific with regards to this thread. The discusson just took a turn.

Just to be clear, I have never said the type shot you refer to requires the things you mention, like a soft tip & a big elbow drop. There is certainly more than one way to get a desired out come. All of the parameters do not have to be the same. It just has to be in an apppropriate & sufficient combination of parameters to achieve the goal.

Regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
No offense meant, but isn't that a rather odd question for an advanced level instructor to be asking a master level instructor in a public forum?
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I'm always trying to learn more, and maybe there is something to learn from a master instructor who teaches something that is contrary to conventional wisdom.

Perhaps you would like to answer my question. You have 46 years of experience, so I'm sure I could learns something from you.
 
If I had time, I would. My stays on this site have been getting shorter and shorter, and for the next month or two I won't be on much at all.

I may pop in for a few minutes in the morning but that is about it.

2 more cisco exams to take this month and then another 11 day cisco bootcamp in California in April.

Debating is not going to prepare me for the hell I need to go through in finishing this up.




ENGLISH! said:
No offense meant.

But,

You are an instructor. Why can't you explain how the cue can move straight with no rocking on a full stroke past the limits that the wrist grip connention can allow such where the elbow does not move without throwing out YouTube videos with no specific times of any shots. I am being perfectly honest in my comments. The first two shots I watched their elbows dropped. Why should I waste my time looking for what you say is there. If it is there, direct me to it & I'll comment.

But as I said, why do you need a video as an example where we might disagree on what each of us is seeing. Simply explain it if you can. I do not even know why this has gone in this direction. It is obvious that we are basically talking about two(2) different strokes. By definition, as I understand it & why it is named the pendulum stroke is that the hand & thus the cue moves on a 'pendulum' arch & not a straight line.

I'm open to definition correction by explanation. IHMO as I think it is defined the cue does not move in a straight line.

As I said in an another post we can not keep taking things out of context & forgetting certain parameters.

Regards,
Click to expand...
 
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