Question for CJ Wiley about TOI

[KMRUNOUT]

CJ,

I was watching a video with my friend last night...Ronnie Alcano vs. Max Eberle playing "American Rotation"...a made up game.

I noticed...it sure did look like Ronnie was playing a lot of routes that looked very much like "inside english routes". I started to notice that he was "floating" the cueball around, and appeared to be using techniques you have talked all about with TOI. I'm curious...you think Ronnie is using the TOI technique or something like it in this match? On most of the open table run outs, he really seems to be moving the cue ball with inside almost every shot.

Watch a bit and tell me what you think if you would!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faoPhGaL2Ps

KMRUNOUT

 

[CJ Wiley]

.after that night something happened to my game...something very interesting indeed.

CJ,

I was watching a video with my friend last night...Ronnie Alcano vs. Max Eberle playing "American Rotation"...a made up game.

I noticed...it sure did look like Ronnie was playing a lot of routes that looked very much like "inside english routes". I started to notice that he was "floating" the cueball around, and appeared to be using techniques you have talked all about with TOI. I'm curious...you think Ronnie is using the TOI technique or something like it in this match? On most of the open table run outs, he really seems to be moving the cue ball with inside almost every shot.

Watch a bit and tell me what you think if you would!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faoPhGaL2Ps

KMRUNOUT

I said at the beginning my TOI System evolved and developed through playing the Filipinos in the early to mid 90's....in the conditions of the philippines you can't spin the cue ball very much so they developed this style. My {TOI} style developed in Florida, playing on "wet tables" (in my early 20's) as well. Playing in "high humidity" makes even more difficult to use "center ball," just a slight miss hit and you will miss on both sides of the pocket.

If a champion misses he wants to over cut the shot, not under cut it. On your video Ronnie undercut that ball in the corner and you saw his reaction. He slightly de-accelerated and didn't "enjoy it" in the least.

I've told the story of playing Efren the gambling match in Seattle at the all Filipino Pool Room (Nardo's) for all those hours betting super high...the part of the story that I didn't tell was before I played Efren I had already played Luat for 10 hours......and he vowed to never play again.

I was on the hill against Luat and got a really "unusual" roll to not get out that game, and he came back and beat me. "Fluky things" happen in pool sometimes. I got straight in on the key ball and had to "power draw" it back and barely caught the point of the corner pocket and the cue ball died....I left myself a long "back cut" and OVER cut it for the money...it's the first ball missed in hours, and I hit it "too well".

After Luat won the set I ask him to play again...he shook his head "no" (didn't say anything)....I ask him "do you want to play tomorrow? Again, he shook his head vigorously "no"......I ask him again, "do you want to play next week, next month or next year?" he just shook his head.

"You mean you never want to play me again?" he looked away. The realization hit me and I looked over at Efren. "Then how about Efren? Will he play?"...I felt the energy in the room suddenly shift ......and the Game was on, I was about to do the unimaginable to them, play Efren on his "home court"......after that night something happened to my game...something very interesting indeed. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I said at the beginning my TOI System evolved and developed through playing the Filipinos in the early to mid 90's....in the conditions of the philippines you can't spin the cue ball very much so they developed this style. My {TOI} style developed in Florida, playing on "wet tables" (in my early 20's) as well. Playing in "high humidity" makes even more difficult to use "center ball," just a slight miss hit and you will miss on both sides of the pocket.

If a champion misses he wants to over cut the shot, not under cut it. On your video Ronnie undercut that ball in the corner and you saw his reaction. He slightly de-accelerated and didn't "enjoy it" in the least.

I've told the story of playing Efren the gambling match in Seattle at the all Filipino Pool Room (Nardo's) for all those hours betting super high...the part of the story that I didn't tell was before I played Efren I had already played Luat for 10 hours......and he vowed to never play again.

I was on the hill against Luat and got a really "unusual" roll to not get out that game, and he came back and beat me. "Fluky things" happen in pool sometimes. I got straight in on the key ball and had to "power draw" it back and barely caught the point of the corner pocket and the cue ball died....I left myself a long "back cut" and OVER cut it for the money...it's the first ball missed in hours, and I hit it "too well".

After Luat won the set I ask him to play again...he shook his head "no" (didn't say anything)....I ask him "do you want to play tomorrow? Again, he shook his head vigorously "no"......I ask him again, "do you want to play next week, next month or next year?" he just shook his head.

"You mean you never want to play me again?" he looked away. The realization hit me and I looked over at Efren. "Then how about Efren? Will he play?"...I felt the energy in the room suddenly shift ......and the Game was on, I was about to do the unimaginable to them, play Efren on his "home court"......after that night something happened to my game...something very interesting indeed. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Oops...I think I might have accidentally linked this video to a particular point. I wasn't really talking about any shot in particular. Just in general he takes a lot of routes in a weird way. Like the very common 2 rails out of the corner...normally those angles are opening up...with Ronnie the angles tighten up, almost like he kills the ball 2 rails every time. You can see he often comes very "closed" out of the corners.

Did you happen to specifically notice the TOI technique or something like it? Anyway, it was watching this video that for the first time I started to see the answer to the question I kept hitting: "But how do you use TOI when you need a typical running english route?" It would appear the answer is that you just develop a fundamentally different game with totally different routes!

KMRUNOUT

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm just telling how it's done and let people pick it up in their own way

Oops...I think I might have accidentally linked this video to a particular point. I wasn't really talking about any shot in particular. Just in general he takes a lot of routes in a weird way. Like the very common 2 rails out of the corner...normally those angles are opening up...with Ronnie the angles tighten up, almost like he kills the ball 2 rails every time. You can see he often comes very "closed" out of the corners.

Did you happen to specifically notice the TOI technique or something like it? Anyway, it was watching this video that for the first time I started to see the answer to the question I kept hitting: "But how do you use TOI when you need a typical running english route?" It would appear the answer is that you just develop a fundamentally different game with totally different routes!

KMRUNOUT

No, you didn't, I saw it from the beginning, just making reference of when he "didn't" use it...when you use TOI you make every shot. and you usually over cut them if you don't {make every shot}.

Yes, it's a different game with more accurate angles. The problem many players are facing is they can see that the Touch Of Inside Technique has great "potential," however they're trying to incorporate it to the "outside english" style of play.

This is the wrong way to do it because the TOI style is as different as it is superior, the cue ball is consistent to control and the angles are natural. Some players will figure this out, some won't, I've said it in many different ways "it's not that I play a better game, it's that I play a different game".....as someone matures in the TOI style my analogies and metaphors will register on a new level.

It's like reading some books, each time you read them they have a deeper meaning. Again, not because I'm anything other than experienced in how to use this technique and can explain it on many different levels. I am only able to explain this because I had to rebuild my game, coming back from an 8 year sabbatical. 'The Game is the Teacher'

At first I used to say things like this and people tried to label it as arrogance, and that just doesn't fit. I'm just telling how it's done and let people pick it up in their own way, at their own level. Once someone "clicks" their game will go up many levels. This only happens AFTER they let go there old way of playing. Is this easy to do? Absolutely not, as a matter of fact it will only happen in one out of ten players from my experience. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

 

[KMRUNOUT]

No, you didn't, I saw it from the beginning, just making reference of when he "didn't" use it...when you use TOI you make every shot. and you usually over cut them if you don't {make every shot}.

Yes, it's a different game with more accurate angles. The problem many players are facing is they can see that the Touch Of Inside Technique has great "potential," however they're trying to incorporate it to the "outside english" style of play.

This is the wrong way to do it because the TOI style is as different as it is superior, the cue ball is consistent to control and the angles are natural. Some players will figure this out, some won't, I've said it in many different ways "it's not that I play a better game, it's that I play a different game".....as someone matures in the TOI style my analogies and metaphors will register on a new level.

It's like reading some books, each time you read them they have a deeper meaning. Again, not because I'm anything other than experienced in how to use this technique and can explain it on many different levels. I am only able to explain this because I had to rebuild my game, coming back from an 8 year sabbatical. 'The Game is the Teacher'

At first I used to say things like this and people tried to label it as arrogance, and that just doesn't fit. I'm just telling how it's done and let people pick it up in their own way, at their own level. Once someone "clicks" their game will go up many levels. This only happens AFTER they let go there old way of playing. Is this easy to do? Absolutely not, as a matter of fact it will only happen in one out of ten players from my experience. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

CJ,

Yeah watching this match...it started to click. I think I'll try it out some at the table. Kinda seems like reinventing the wheel...it really seems to make a major impact on position routes...like learning a whole new way to play.

KMRUNOUT

PS, I bet its killer on the bar table!

 

[CJ Wiley]

Yes, it's devistating on a Bar Table. Here's a story I posted yesterday on Face Book

CJ,

Yeah watching this match...it started to click. I think I'll try it out some at the table. Kinda seems like reinventing the wheel...it really seems to make a major impact on position routes...like learning a whole new way to play.

KMRUNOUT

PS, I bet its killer on the bar table!

Yes, it's devistating on a Bar Table. Here's a story I posted yesterday on Face Book about when I used to gamble on the road and play high dollar Bar Table matches. At that time David Matlock was the best Bar Table Player in the country, if not the world. Here's the story, I hope you enjoy it:


The Stage Was Set - The tournament was in Anniston, Alabama. and it was a huge bar table tournament. All the greatest players were there, and I was with Weldon Rogers, "Billy Johnson", Berle, and a group from Kentucky. Reid Pierce and I had recently played in Atlanta and I ended up giving him the 8 on a bar table and managed to win - it took like 3 straight days.

Weldon told me he wanted me to play David Matlock (the world's greatest bar table player) and have Billy Johnson break for me, so we matched up a 10 ahead for $10,000. "Billy" (Wade Crane) had only been playing on big tables the last few months and couldn't get the break working. I played flawlessly and got 8 ahead, then Matlock put an "8 Pack" together and we were even, then 1 down.....down 2....and counting.

I was sitting next to "Billy," he leaned in close to my ear and whispered "I just figured the break out....we're going to beat him 30 ahead if he doesn't quit!" I looked up at him and could instantly see, he was calm, his eyes were blazing - he was DEADLY SERIOUS!

Sure enough, all of a sudden I won a game and BILLY BROKE>BAMMMM!!! The cue ball hit the one and went straight up in the air while 4 balls fought to get in the pockets - the cue ball came down {still bouncing} PARKED at the center of the table. Billy said in that "low tone" as he walked back to the chair "I over amped on that one," glanced at me with a smirk on his face, and winked. I knew what was fixin to happen.

We put on a devastating "One/Two Punch Clinic" from there on out and won the 10 ahead in the next hour. He was right, we would have put "30 Ahead" on anyone from that point on. Weldon got up and offered anyone at the tournament the "Last 2" if they wanted to play us, everyone politely declined.

 

[One Pocket John]

No, you didn't, I saw it from the beginning, just making reference of when he "didn't" use it...when you use TOI you make every shot. and you usually over cut them if you don't {make every shot}.

Yes, it's a different game with more accurate angles. The problem many players are facing is they can see that the Touch Of Inside Technique has great "potential," however they're trying to incorporate it to the "outside english" style of play.

This is the wrong way to do it because the TOI style is as different as it is superior, the cue ball is consistent to control and the angles are natural. Some players will figure this out, some won't, I've said it in many different ways "it's not that I play a better game, it's that I play a different game".....as someone matures in the TOI style my analogies and metaphors will register on a new level.

It's like reading some books, each time you read them they have a deeper meaning. Again, not because I'm anything other than experienced in how to use this technique and can explain it on many different levels. I am only able to explain this because I had to rebuild my game, coming back from an 8 year sabbatical. 'The Game is the Teacher'

At first I used to say things like this and people tried to label it as arrogance, and that just doesn't fit. I'm just telling how it's done and let people pick it up in their own way, at their own level. Once someone "clicks" their game will go up many levels. This only happens AFTER they let go there old way of playing. Is this easy to do? Absolutely not, as a matter of fact it will only happen in one out of ten players from my experience. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

Yup, this is the challenge.

Been spinning the ball for over 50 years. Letting go isn't an easy thing to do. Using force rather than spin for speed control has been hard for me to get my head around. But, it has been a lot of fun.

I have over a couple of hundred hours invested in TOI and enjoy using it. Each day I am getting more and more comfortable. My approach to position play is slowly changing using TOI.

I would hope that new players would adopt this style of play. The next generation of players should be something to see.

Thanks for all that you share CJ

John

 

[vagabond]

.

I would hope that new players would adopt this style of play. The next generation of players should be something to see.


John

Inside English comes handy on very tough shots but it has some limitations. If the tables are brand new with brand new Simonis cloth like in Pro tournaments,using inside English is a road to disaster. Effren avoided using inside English for the first two days and did not mind it from the third day onwards.

I understand that Buddy Hall disliked the Inside English irrespective of the age of the cloth or the brand of the cloth.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Isnt there a forum dedicated to aiming which also has TOI stuff?

 

[Chrippa]

I also thank CJ for coming forward with this and I really like his way of thinking, many things are very logical in his explanations imo. And he does have very good patience:wink: explain it to us.

As being a cuenerd I sometimes scratch my head on some thoughts about cues that I see and hear.
Low deflection is for some people a term for quality, or a good cue, not in my opinion.
Consistency in deflection/squirt in different speeds is far more important imo, if you know how much it will squirt and if it´s squirts the same it´s kind of easy to "find" the cue, the play in it. Some cues have it and that´s the ones I favor by a mile.
I have kind of settled with a cue that has a low deflection but not extremly low.
I want the cue to deflect so I can use it for many shots. A very ld cue is for me a bad thing because they go to straight and to squirt the cb as much as you want you need to put more side to it, not what I prefer. But it of course can be a good cue anyway. Different tastes.

CJ said sort of: we never (road players) spoke about deflection, it was there and it´s usefull when I play. I play with it not against it (not his exact words but it was my interpet of them) .

I like that view a lot because you see it in the positive way instead of the opposite, use it and it will be your friend.
The way you look on things is very important. See the solution not the problem and when you are in the "zone" you are just doing it - no questions asked:smile:.
I like to watch children playing, growing - they just do it. And then we adults who think that we are so supersmart comes and messes it up for them:smile:.
To play any game you have to enjoy the ride, first you crawl then you walk then you can run.

I think that the running never ends and there will be a new challenge for you in every step.

CJ how about breaking some records:smile:, can´t that be a new challenge for you? Or what about playing snooker and using TOI -that would be fun to see:smile:.

I have of course used inside and have used it a lot but I haven´t thought of it exactly the same as CJ describes it and when doing it his way I have found some interesting shots, a different way of looking at the game, "found" some new players or should I say older ones that I look at in a way different way now.
I also like the "aiming with the CB" instead of thinking contact point. I wonder if it isn´t something like that you have done when you are in the zone. We or at least me have a tendency to make things harder than it usually are... on the other hand that´s the way of learning.

Still a avid student of TOI and the game and I will always stay like that, new things comes and goes some you stay with some you don´t. How I will use the TOI or how much I will use it like CJ explains it I haven´t a clue right now but I know I´m having fun trying it out - big thanks for that!

CJ if you can fill in or correct me about the deflection or anything else for that matter that can be helpful I would be glad.

Regards

Chrippa

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Isnt there a forum dedicated to aiming which also has TOI stuff?

Actually this thread was really not about aiming so much as about style of play and position choices. Sorry if I posted in the wrong place. Seemed like pretty straightforward pool stuff to me.

KMRUNOUT

 

[CJ Wiley]

I've seen Efren shoot many shots cuing the ball low and FOLLOW THE BALL

Inside English comes handy on very tough shots but it has some limitations. If the tables are brand new with brand new Simonis cloth like in Pro tournaments,using inside English is a road to disaster. Effren avoided using inside English for the first two days and did not mind it from the third day onwards.

I understand that Buddy Hall disliked the Inside English irrespective of the age of the cloth or the brand of the cloth.

Yes, I agree, inside english is to be used sparingly. However, TOI isn't "english", it's about deflecting the cue ball slightly.

So many people associate "inside" with "inside english," however, it's like cuing the cue ball low and thinking that it must produce "low english" - this in not the case at all. I've seen Efren{and Bustemante}shoot many shots cuing low and FOLLOW THE BALL.

Using the TOI Method of playing pool it's the same type thing, you CUE the ball inside, however, you don't spin it. There is a difference and without knowing this {difference} it's impossible to gain the benefits of using TOI.

'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, I agree, inside english is to be used sparingly. However, TOI isn't "english", it's about deflecting the cue ball slightly.

So many people associate "inside" with "inside english," however, it's like cuing the cue ball low and thinking that it must produce "low english" - this in not the case at all. I've seen Efren{and Bustemante}shoot many shots cuing low and FOLLOW THE BALL.

Using the TOI Method of playing pool it's the same type thing, you CUE the ball inside, however, you don't spin it. There is a difference and without knowing this {difference} it's impossible to gain the benefits of using TOI.
'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com

CJ,

How do you like the number 20?

Because, WOW!, what you just said in 20 words.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that many just don't understand the difference between the four(4) components of a non center hit.

Squirt - Swerve - Spin Induced Throw - Running/Holding Spin to affect Rail Rebound Angle.

I don't know how else you can explain TOI & how you use it more clearly than you already have.

Maybe a non vocal Indian type sign language video.:wink:

Best Regards, Best Wishes, & Thanks for Everything,

 

[The Renfro]

Since there are no technique sub forums I think TOI belongs here.. It is not simply an aiming system like many people try and pigeon hole it into but a slightly different style of play that uses different patterns and therefore a different way of thinking....

I guess anyone not wanting to try it or who discounts it can just ignore any thread with TOI in the title... I have been ignoring all of the CTE and PRO One threads for months now...

I will at some point go to Stan and learn it directly from him but the discussions in the forum has caused me more confusion than the DVD did..

I wonder what other sub-forums we can come up with..It would likely be almost limitless.... I think the general serves very well for discussions that cross more than a single boundary as long as the topics are pool related......

Chris

 

[Mikjary]

Maybe it should be called TOD (touch of deflection). The inside part throws off the purists who already know all about inside spin. Something that simple can't possibly be new.

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think CJ should have his own sub forum. He has a wealth of information of different tpoic but they are connected. It would make it easier for him to review one location.

 

[RobMan]

I think CJ should have his own sub forum. He has a wealth of information of different tpoic but they are connected. It would make it easier for him to review one location.

CJ is a wealth of information, and I am extremely grateful for his input.

I can tell ya, I have been wroking with TOI a good bit the last month, and t has definitely clicked. Out of town right now, have not pciked up a cue in a over a week, went to a local hall and rented a Gold Crown and ordered a draft wheat beer.

Man -- on a string. Felt so good. Not just the ball potting, but the positional route play that I NEVER would have played before -- just so natural. Really works with my stroke. Even if if I under or overrun the shape, I just have sooo much more confidence.

And when I miss, yes mostly over cut, then jsut adjust for next time. If I undercut, I immediately know that I probably decelerated the stroke.

THANKS again CJ for giving back to the game!

 

[Fatboy]

I noticed a few years back John Morra uses inside often, and he is getting better and better. he is been spending time in the PI as well. however he is a MIE player, massive inside english(well sometimes)

 

[Neil]

Since there are no technique sub forums I think TOI belongs here.. It is not simply an aiming system like many people try and pigeon hole it into but a slightly different style of play that uses different patterns and therefore a different way of thinking....

I guess anyone not wanting to try it or who discounts it can just ignore any thread with TOI in the title... I have been ignoring all of the CTE and PRO One threads for months now...

I will at some point go to Stan and learn it directly from him but the discussions in the forum has caused me more confusion than the DVD did..

I wonder what other sub-forums we can come up with..It would likely be almost limitless.... I think the general serves very well for discussions that cross more than a single boundary as long as the topics are pool related......

Chris

There's already a place for him to be- it's called "Ask a pro". Why the mods haven't put him there yet, I don't know.

 

[justadub]

There's already a place for him to be- it's called "Ask a pro". Why the mods haven't put him there yet, I don't know.

So you don't think that CJ should be allowed in the Main Forum?