Somebody actually dug out this rule tonight!!!

[zpele]

You guys need to remember that this will really only be useful for lower handicaps.

A lower handicap will also aim at the chalk instead of the point on the rail which will result in an incorrect contact point in many cases. This is especially the case if you are at a large obtuse angle to the contact point.

 

[cuesblues]

In the pool halls I grew up in you would get your ass kicked for doing that,
but I am typically the coach on my APA team and I do it all the time.
APA is supposed to be an instructional league, I like to place the chalk just at the right spot for the 2's & 3's, and as the coach it's a lot of fun when they pull the shot off.
I even picked up a new girlfriend out of the deal>>:smile:

 

[leehayes]

This is actually a legal thing in the APA. However, as in the case of the Lehigh Valley APA the league operator has said that even though it was legal in the APA he would not allow it in his division.
The APA does allow for some leeway in the rules at the local level.

But if anyone would like to answer if this is illegal or not. One night I had a player who needed to bank the 8 ball. I told him I was going to walk away from the table and hold my hand down and he was to aim exactly at my hand. I was almost 5 feet from the table. He aimed at my hand and made the 8 perfectly. No one even knew what I was doing. So, illegal or not?

 

[Black Cat 5791]

This used to be illegal in APA, but they changed the rule 2 years ago or so.

To me it's the same as holding your finger on the rail until they line up. The only difference being that you have to remove your finger before they shoot.

Although, now that a piece of chalk can be left there it seems pointless to require that your finger be removed before they shoot. Why not just let people leave there finger there in that case?

I've been in League the past 12 years, this is my 13th. I was totally caught off guard that the rule had been changed. There is one added line in there. :angry: Historically it's always been OK to place your finger on the Rail where the Diamonds are located till the player lines up then before they pull the final trigger remove the finger and walk away.

I guess I need to re-read the handbook, but anyway it's in there so I have no choice but to accept and support it. And, believe you me I will be taking full advantage of it.

Still don't really like it but oh well.

I didn't state the League because I didn't want this to turn into a Bash Session. I really do enjoy league play and I do support it but this just one of those really obscure rules that, well you know the rest.............

Black Cat :thumbup:

 

[Black Cat 5791]

I can see why they would allow the chalk to be used as a marker since any attempt to prevent it could not be effectively enforced.

Chalk is often randomly placed on the table throughout the match and if a player chose to place a piece of chalk on the rail in a place that happend to help him sight a shot....who would know unless he was blatantly obvious in his actions.

If a player can do it without penalty in an unobvious manner, why should a player be penalized for doing it in an obvious manner?

What would happen if a player randomly placed the chalk on the table and his opponent didn't like it's position, thinking it could be a marker, and broke his opponents rhythm by requesting the chalk be moved before taking the shot?

9 out of 10 would call that sharking, which incidently is also against the rules.

The player may not have been using the chalk as a marker and the opoonent may not have been sharking but both players are now in a position to cry foul.

It would seem that the best option for all players is to tollerate the rule allowing for the chalk to be a marker as this prevents complex disputes that make the game less enjoyable for everyone.

Few advanced players would need a marker so only the "up & coming" players would truly benefit from this rule. Can anyone see a good reason to prevent newer players the opportunity to become more proficient in a sport that is trying to grow nationally?

There are too many good reasons to allow the rule.

Everything that you said makes very valid points. I guess my only real issue is that for 11 years the rule was one thing then 2 years ago it was written in and no one bothered to bring attention to the change.

National Rules state that chalk can be used to mark the pocket in 8 ball, local by laws over ride that and it's not allowed. I've read both, I really hate the fact that I missed it and was un-aware.

I also hate when people use every little rule to their advantage to change the outcome of the game, but it's apart of the game so it has to be accepted. I'm not arguing the rule, I was just really shocked that it had been changed and insulted at the time that someone would literally try to " in my mind at the time " illegally mark the target with the chalk. But, now we know so life is all good and we'll support the rule and move on.

Black Cat

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Chalk off the cloth

Placing chalk off the cloth will reduce the chance of the chalk flying off the rubber in instances of harder banking. Also adding the distance to the aiming point could increase the accuracy of the bank which is more beneficial to the shooter.

I guess your main concern is forgetting to move the chalk back far enough to avoid the opponent calling a foul for improperly placed marker.

I don't ever use a marker after the player is down. I have them line it up and then I move chalk, me, or whatever. I want them to see the shot without aids to give them more satisfaction after making the shot.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Oh it's legal, unless it's prohibited by a local rule. If you're going by the "letter of the law" it can touch the cloth, but you cannot actually mark the cloth or the playing surface. In an email the APA Rule Guru told me the playing surface was anything below the part of the rail that extended out over the slate or bed, from the point of the rail down. I think the rule also says something about marking the cloth on the rail, so it's picking nits I guess, but I suppose you could place chalk on the rail cloth so long as you don't actually make a mark on the cloth. Here's another one, how many of you (in the APA) have taken ball in hand in 8 ball when your opponent scratches on the break? Also perfectly legal... unless before the shot your opponent reminds you to shoot from the kitchen before you take the shot.

 

[Maniac]

One night I had a player who needed to bank the 8 ball. I told him I was going to walk away from the table and hold my hand down and he was to aim exactly at my hand. I was almost 5 feet from the table. He aimed at my hand and made the 8 perfectly. No one even knew what I was doing. So, illegal or not?

Basically, you used his timeout to teach him the "spot-on-the-wall" shot, and he pulled it off perfectly. Legal, at least IMO.

I haven't looked at the rules in a while, but if my memory serves me correctly (which it doesn't at my age), the marking-the-rail-with-chalk rule is on page 52 of the Team Manual.
EDIT: Just looked it up and page 52 is correct.

Maniac

 

[ugotactionTX]

Legal or not you should never be able to mark the cloth or table, temporarily or otherwise, in an attempt to line up a shot. A lot of the joy in this game is putting in the time, figuring things out, and then being able to recall the info in a game situation. Why cheapen it by allowing things like that in competition. In my most humble opinion

 

[the kidd]

Are the diamonds "Fair"

Are the diamonds "Fair"? When using "Over the second diamond" just place the chalk inline on the wood with the ghost CB and the target spot when sighting past the 2nd diamond.

In my opinion that is like not fair, what difference does it matter whether it's touching the cloth or not. It's still and artificial point of reference that isn't built into the table, I can't see how it can possibly be legal.

When in a coaching time out situation you can place your finger on the rail to show the aim point till your player fixes on the spot then remove your finger and leave the table area before they shoot, but to actually place a reference point has always been an illegal ploy.

Black Cat

 

[Rich R.]

Everything that you said makes very valid points. I guess my only real issue is that for 11 years the rule was one thing then 2 years ago it was written in and no one bothered to bring attention to the change.

National Rules state that chalk can be used to mark the pocket in 8 ball, local by laws over ride that and it's not allowed. I've read both, I really hate the fact that I missed it and was un-aware.

I also hate when people use every little rule to their advantage to change the outcome of the game, but it's apart of the game so it has to be accepted. I'm not arguing the rule, I was just really shocked that it had been changed and insulted at the time that someone would literally try to " in my mind at the time " illegally mark the target with the chalk. But, now we know so life is all good and we'll support the rule and move on.

Black Cat

Kevin, that rule was changed much more than 2 years ago. Like many others, I never thought it was legal until Dale Dove told me about it and he hasn't been in the league for much more than 2 years.

It's legal in the APA.
I don't think it is legal in the BCA.
I don't know if its legal in TAP.

It pays to know the rules of the league your playing in. :shrug::crying:

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Are the diamonds "Fair"? When using "Over the second diamond" just place the chalk inline on the wood with the ghost CB and the target spot when sighting past the 2nd diamond.

My original argument was based on the fact the historically one would use the Diamond System to make and aim banks and kicks, the in between segments would be gauged be estimation and experience. Therefore not using any outside tool for the purpose of aiding the shot other than what was built into the table.

Black Cat

PS: I was never arguing the ruling only the fact that it was changed to allow it.

 

[oldzilla]

FOUL !!!

It might be ok for APA. (no wonder i never played apa)

But in the general rules it is illegal.
As is laying your stick down and leaving unhanded it to measure.
Is that ok for your APA too?

 

[EasyEJL]

In my opinion that is like not fair, what difference does it matter whether it's touching the cloth or not. It's still and artificial point of reference that isn't built into the table, I can't see how it can possibly be legal.

I don't really see the issue. I frequently use artificial points of reference not built into the table, like where a barstool is, a poster on the wall, etc. a piece of chalk sitting on the table isn't all that different. And honestly for the people who would be doing that, the chance of it helping their shot significantly is small

 

[cuesblues]

APA skill levels 1-2-3 never call timeout before they get into trouble.
With certain players it doesn't help the situation during a timeout to try and teach them how to play pool.
In the spirit of minimizing the time of the timeout, and considering the fact that we are dealing with players who can't play,
they don't practice, and this is their one night out a week, I like to use the chalk.
Ive never seen anybody use the chalk for their own shot, but it would be a real weenie move if they did.
I don't even know the rules, I just know you can use the chalk during a timeout as long as it's not touching the felt.
If it's legal for us to use the chalk on our own shots I hope nobody ever does it against me, because I could start laughing and get myself into trouble.

 

[GeoEnvi]

In my opinion that is like not fair, what difference does it matter whether it's touching the cloth or not. It's still and artificial point of reference that isn't built into the table, I can't see how it can possibly be legal.

It's not uncommon for someone to use a "point of reference that isn't built into the table".... ever use the 'spot on the wall' system for kicking multiple rails?

Unfortunately, the arguments are there for both sides of this issue.

 

[Celophanewrap]

FOUL !!!

It might be ok for APA. (no wonder i never played apa)

But in the general rules it is illegal.
As is laying your stick down and leaving unhanded it to measure.
Is that ok for your APA too?

In the APA that's OK, but no laser devices in the APA. No Laser pointers, no laser cues, and for god's sake NO JUMP CUES!

 

[CreeDo]

I think the reason for the 'on the cloth' vs. 'not on the cloth' distinction is

A: on the cloth, if it's hanging over the edge a little, might arguably contact the CB and affect the outcome. A chalk just near the edge that the CB never touches will actually pop up a few inches into the air, leading to arguments that it touched the CB when it didn't.

B: A player may stand near his intended contact point, or some other measuring point, chalk, and put the chalk down. Then it becomes He Said / She Said... "You were marking something!" "No I was just chalking and put the chalk down!" ...so they just say screw it and allow chalk anywhere on the rail. Whereas chalk on the cushion itself can't be an accident and is clearly marking.

Here's one for you, a guy warned us about a player who uses his stick to line up shots. He just holds it along the shotline and lays the tip on the table where the ghostball would be, but additionally he kind of 'wiggle-drags' the stick into place, kinda like how you'll see people hitch their cue rapidly a few times as they settle into a shooting stance. He was warned for a marking foul cuz his movement left a little zigzag of chalk on the cloth.

 

[Dirtbmw20]

As much as most people are hating the fact that you can place the piece of chalk on the rail as a point of reference, also, know that it is LEGAL for the opposing team to go move that chalk away from the reference point. Although it is unsportsmanlike (but to me, so is placing something on the rail as a reference point), there is nothing in the rules that says the other team can't go move your reference point.

I have a girl we shoot with that HATES the rule with a passion, and every single time I see someone place a marker, she goes right over and moves it, and there's nothing they can do about it except *****, shoot the ball, or go back and forth moving the marker. EVERYTIME so far, the shooter just says f it and shoots.

 

[Celophanewrap]

As much as most people are hating the fact that you can place the piece of chalk on the rail as a point of reference, also, know that it is LEGAL for the opposing team to go move that chalk away from the reference point. Although it is unsportsmanlike (but to me, so is placing something on the rail as a reference point), there is nothing in the rules that says the other team can't go move your reference point.

I have a girl we shoot with that HATES the rule with a passion, and every single time I see someone place a marker, she goes right over and moves it, and there's nothing they can do about it except *****, shoot the ball, or go back and forth moving the marker. EVERYTIME so far, the shooter just says f it and shoots.

This is why I carry my own chalk. If it was the $30 chalk, it might cause a problem, you know