No holy grail?

[cleary]

The biggest misconception with people on azbiliards is they think people who use aiming systems think it's going to make them a champion. Aiming small piece of the puzzle. You can aim every single ball right and not make very single ball. Or even half of them. Or run out. This is a complicated game and there is no magic bullet and nobody claims to have one. If they do, they're lying to you.

I've used several aiming systems and while I cannot explain why they work, they do. I've used various diamond systems and just the same, they work and I don't really understand why. None of that has made me even close to a player. I do pocket balls much better, but my cueball still sucks and I don't always play the right shot or do the right thing. Everyone knows table time, talent and confidence are the keys to this game.

 

[JB Cases]

Who will you be hiring to give the instruction John?
Also, some players will need hypnosis as well as drills to get the dog out of them. You can't teach that.
I'm willing to bet $30k I can be an A player by year's end too. All I have to do is quit my job and hire some big guy to drag me to my table and force me to spend 8+ hours doing the drills every day.

That is the whole point right there. To become a top player means sacrifice in other areas of life. That is the reality of it.

Really study people's stories and you find time after time that something is missing if they don't succeed. Time, desire, coaching, competition, but not "talent".



Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

 

[CJ Wiley]

An aiming system is like having sights on your rifle

Agreed... there is no holy grail. 25 years ago when I first worked with Hal Mix (Hal coached Nick Varner, Kim Davenport, Robin Bell, etc.) the first thing he told me was "Rob, everyone is looking for the secret... the secret is there is no ****ing secret"

With that being said it seems that many on AZ are opposed to the quest for knowledge, viewing all information, systems, products, etc as gimmicks.
Willie Mosconi wrote books, put his name on products and made money... nearly every professional player has.

I've been working with CTE/Pro 1... I paid my money for the DVD, invested the time and it has helped my game. I am happy with my purchase and I believe that since Stan put years into this system he deserves to be paid for his information and hard work.

I've watched CJ Wiley's TOI Video - I think its an interesting system
especially for all the AZ'ers who complain about bar box conditions - it allows you to hit the balls at a somewhat harder consistent speed while getting shape and takes much of the table roll out of the game. (this is my personal assessment)

Even Willie Mosconi had his detractors back in the day - I have a copy of one of his books where he throws in this disclaimer prior to discussing his parallel aiming system "Before the purists begin to howl" - in other words his aiming system teaching was apparently controversial in his time.

If I ever get to the point where I'm unteachable, think I know it all and stop seeking knowledge it will be time to quit. (that will never happen)

I agree, aiming systems don't even exist to anyone that can't hit the cue ball straight consistently. This requires knowing how to set your feet and body to each shot the same way every time. There's no other effective way so you may as well learn the best way from the very beginning.

An aiming system is like having sights on your rifle. They only help you if the barrel is straight, you have a bullet in the chamber, and your firing pin is working.

 

[3andstop]

you have a bullet in the chamber, and your firing pin is working.

There's still a bullet in the chamber, but my firing pin stopped working so good once I reached 60.

 

[CJ Wiley]

At some point it comes back to the NLP.

That is the whole point right there. To become a top player means sacrifice in other areas of life. That is the reality of it.

Really study people's stories and you find time after time that something is missing if they don't succeed. Time, desire, coaching, competition, but not "talent".



Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

The common denominator is having the Will to do whatever it takes to achieve your outcomes. This is usually passed on by a mentor that is already a champion player. There is an osmosis process in mentor-ship that has always been effective.

I have players come spend a few days with me to just strengthen their mental side, they didn't need to improve their TOI or 3 Part Pocket Zoning. At some point it comes back to the NLP.

 

[JB Cases]

The common denominator is having the Will to do whatever it takes to achieve your outcomes. This is usually passed on by a mentor that is already a champion player. There is an osmosis process in mentor-ship that has always been effective.

I have players come spend a few days with me to just strengthen their mental side, they didn't need to improve their TOI or 3 Part Pocket Zoning. At some point it comes back to the NLP.

This is my point exactly. It's not about talent, it's about willpower and desire.

Of course in some situations there is a hardware issues. Someone with no arms is going to have it extremely tough to become a world class player no matter how much desire and willingness to work they have. But I bet that they could become a pretty capable player anyway with enough skills to beat a lot of able-bodied people who THINK that they can play.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool is a lot like Martial Arts.

This is my point exactly. It's not about talent, it's about willpower and desire.

Of course in some situations there is a hardware issues. Someone with no arms is going to have it extremely tough to become a world class player no matter how much desire and willingness to work they have. But I bet that they could become a pretty capable player anyway with enough skills to beat a lot of able-bodied people who THINK that they can play.

Pool is a lot like Martial Arts. The same basic rules apply, and the teaching has many levels, just like the instructors.

 

[lfigueroa]

Thanks Lou! These are all really good things for me to think about as I'm playing. Let me see if I can answer a few of these questions off the bat.

Does your draw shot come straight back, or does it go off to the side a bit? Usually slides off to the left.

Follow shot? Same usually to the left.

Stop cue ball? Yes generally I do not have an issue with that. Maybe a slight roll forward or back but mere inch or so.

Does your CB consistently come up short on the same position play? No, I generally hit the ball much harder than I need to.

Is the angle you expect on any given shot shorter or wider than you predicted? Generally shorter. I hit rails early usually.

Sounds like you're on your way, WRE. Now, you need to figure out why each of those is so.

Lou Figueroa
sounds simple but...

 

[JB Cases]

Pool is a lot like Martial Arts. The same basic rules apply, and the teaching has many levels, just like the instructors.

Everything is like everything else.

When you read the stories and bios of successful people in any field you find the same common aspects. Incredible desire and drive. Incredible fascination. Immense work ethic and the ability to put in tons of time. Very competitive.

All these things are common. Whether the successful person is humble about their success or arrogant, whether they attribute it to God or Science, those things are present.

So IF there is something that people MIGHT be born with that some have and others don't which predicts who can achieve high levels and who can't then it's probably drive or desire or better put willpower.

This has been tested in children. Given the choice of having two cookies if they could not touch one cookie for ten minutes or have the one cookie immediately the children who could exercise the willpower to resist immediate gratification for later greater gain ended up doing better in life on average than the kids who gave in and took the one cookie.

So the old proverb is true after all, "Where there is a will, there is a way" and those who think otherwise in my opinion are dead wrong and using it as an excuse to justify their own failure to progress. I realize that this is not something people want to hear or face but it's true.

And as well there are pros who don't want to hear it either. Me and John Schmidt disagree about this even as he tells people that the secret to getting good is to play until your hands bleed. He believes that there are some people who could do that and never reach world world class. To which I would say that those people either don't exist or they are physically or mentally handicapped in some way.

 

[SmoothStroke]

Just look around

It's amazing what people can achieve. Some with natural ability who get all the breaks, others less talented with a life of hardship. There are a million stories and more to come. We hear them all, amazing feats. Right now I can think of two football players, Ray Rice, Michael Oher. Look at the mountains they had to climb. Phil Rizzuto was told he was too small; he might have 10 World Series rings.
You need the passion, the will, burning desire, a goal. Nothing is going to stop you. Nothing will get in your way. NOTHING
You practice, practice, practice, eat sleep and drink your passion because you want it that bad, it's an obsession. You learn and learn until you can't learn anymore, THEN YOU LEARN SOME MORE. You practice more; when you go to bed you dream your passion.
I got a call about 8 years ago for a lesson. We made arrangements to meet. I told him what table we would be on, will have everything ready to go.
At 7 P.M. here comes this guy rolling up to me in a wheel chair, my lesson.
He lost both legs, at the hips, in Vietnam. He stepped on a mine with 15 days to go, he never should have been there.
He is now my very good friend, Mikey Wheels. He would inspire anyone on this forum with his passion, will and desire for life.
He went to Washington D.C for a memorial service. I am not sure of the number of steps, it was something like 300 up and back down. He climbed them with his hands. Need we say more?
He eventually got free lessons but I am the one who truly learned and benefited.
So who wants to excel in Pool?

 

[SmoothStroke]

Huh ?

The common denominator is having the Will to do whatever it takes to achieve your outcomes. This is usually passed on by a mentor that is already a champion player. There is an osmosis process in mentor-ship that has always been effective.

I have players come spend a few days with me to just strengthen their mental side, they didn't need to improve their TOI or 3 Part Pocket Zoning. At some point it comes back to the NLP.

Just curious, was that a typo?
Mike Tyson could have been a contender.
I don't think Gus D'Amato, Kevin Rooney and Teddy Atlas held any titles.
When he fired them and hired champions to train him he became a loser.

I will stop right there

 

[SakuJack]

This is my point exactly. It's not about talent, it's about willpower and desire.

It's about willpower, desire AND talent.

To think a talented person can get there without the desire and dedication to improve is foolhardy. But to think you can be truly elite at any sport/game without talent is just as misguided, in my opinion.

Interesting quote (from an interesting article) from Ellen Winner, Professor and Chair of Psychology at Boston College:

"But there are two logical flaws in the denial of inborn talent or intellectual potential. First, the fact that no one achieves at elite levels without significant effort shows that hard work is necessary, not that it is sufficient. In addition, the reverse is also likely: innate talent may be a necessary condition for hard work. For instance, it is highly plausible that only when playing the piano comes easily (read talent) are children willing to keep at it. Those lacking talent will find it harder to learn and are thus more likely to give up. In my book, Gifted Children: Myths and Realities, I argue that gifted children have a “rage to master” in their domain. Without this intense drive, no child will clock huge amounts of deliberate practice."

 

[CJ Wiley]

Just curious, was that a typo?
Mike Tyson could have been a contender.
I don't think Gus D'Amato, Kevin Rooney and Teddy Atlas held any titles.
When he fired them and hired champions to train him he became a loser.

I will stop right there

I didn't even know Mike Tyson played pool.

 

[JB Cases]

It's about willpower, desire AND talent.

To think a talented person can get there without the desire and dedication to improve is foolhardy. But to think you can be truly elite at any sport/game without talent is just as misguided, in my opinion.

Interesting quote (from an interesting article) from Ellen Winner, Professor and Chair of Psychology at Boston College:

"But there are two logical flaws in the denial of inborn talent or intellectual potential. First, the fact that no one achieves at elite levels without significant effort shows that hard work is necessary, not that it is sufficient. In addition, the reverse is also likely: innate talent may be a necessary condition for hard work. For instance, it is highly plausible that only when playing the piano comes easily (read talent) are children willing to keep at it. Those lacking talent will find it harder to learn and are thus more likely to give up. In my book, Gifted Children: Myths and Realities, I argue that gifted children have a “rage to master” in their domain. Without this intense drive, no child will clock huge amounts of deliberate practice."

Nonsense. Because lots of kids are seen as "talented" and they have zero drive to master whatever it is that they are said to be talented at.

I won't argue that some people seem to "just see it". Some kids draw everything at an early age without formal training and yet they don't become great artists and some do. I won't rule out that jsut as people can be mentally retarded then they can also be mentally exceptional. The same type of defect that causes one person to not be able to grasp math might very well manifest as a neurological connection that causes another to be able to see pi to the 10,000th decimal.

But just a retarded person is known to be a statistical anomaly so to is the savant. The average person has an IQ and physical aptitude within a standard range and thus has about the same starting position in life. After birth all sorts of societal influences play a huge role in how the person develops and what sort of person they develop into.

So what we are talking about here in my opinion are normal people who had both the drive and the opportunity to pursue what interested them. Those people succeeded mainly through hard work and less through "talent" in my opinion.

However I won't dismiss the fact that every one of us has a different neural map even if it's 97% the same as everyone else. Maybe that difference IS what we should call "talent". The thing that makes me interested in arguing and not interested in equations....is that talent?

Or is it even more than that? Is is not even possible for me to learn calculus at 45? Could I not become a good mathematician if I started now and applied myself for ten hard years?

I think you don't know the answer to that. Neither do I.

Look up the Polgar sisters. Two out of three became grandmasters in chess and the other one is highly rated. I guess the dad was very lucky to have had three kids with "chess" talent. Oh wait, he didn't, he felt that mastery could be trained and so he experimented on his kids by teaching them chess from the age of three onwards.

Anyway, you can certainly find that this debate goes on and on but I think science is winning out to show that talent is indeed overrated. More and more people with access to high level information are able to use it to get better and better. Thus the average level of play increases even as the upper levels also increase. A shortstop in 2013 probably would be an national level class player in 1913. (shortstop is a pool slang term for semi-pro class player).

 

[SakuJack]

Nonsense. Because lots of kids are seen as "talented" and they have zero drive to master whatever it is that they are said to be talented at.

And a lot of people are seen as being dedicated, or having drive, but they lack the requisite talent to be elite.

To paraphrase Ellen Winner: hard work is necessary, not sufficient.

 

[JB Cases]

And a lot of people are seen as being dedicated, or having drive, but they lack the requisite talent to be elite.

To paraphrase Ellen Winner: hard work is necessary, not sufficient.

To debate Ellen Winner, how do you know?

To quote the wisdom of the ages, "success is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration".

You will rarely find a person that really put in the time who did NOT succeed.

Most didn't REALLY do it.

And in fact one myth of "gifted" children that is now being BUSTED by the Khan academy is that those who grasp concepts faster are smarter. It is commonly thought that if a kid in school is able to race through lessons then he or she must be gifted and they are then put into classes for gifted kids. Classes that have more challenging curriculum.

But in fact what the Khan academy method is showing is that often some kids will race ahead and then struggle while the "slower" kids take more time on the easier work and then when they get to the harder work they move ahead of the so-called gifted kids because they have absorbed the material to a greater degree.

That's data, not conjecture.

 

[SakuJack]

You will rarely find a person that really put in the time who did NOT succeed.

Most didn't REALLY do it.

To debate John Barton, how do you know?

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's about the decision to either commit to improving OR .....

To debate Ellen Winner, how do you know?

To quote the wisdom of the ages, "success is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration".

You will rarely find a person that really put in the time who did NOT succeed.

Most didn't REALLY do it.

And in fact one myth of "gifted" children that is now being BUSTED by the Khan academy is that those who grasp concepts faster are smarter. It is commonly thought that if a kid in school is able to race through lessons then he or she must be gifted and they are then put into classes for gifted kids. Classes that have more challenging curriculum.

But in fact what the Khan academy method is showing is that often some kids will race ahead and then struggle while the "slower" kids take more time on the easier work and then when they get to the harder work they move ahead of the so-called gifted kids because they have absorbed the material to a greater degree.

That's data, not conjecture.

I've heard everyone has a defining moment when they had to confront themselves in a way that would set the stage for their future. This happened to me almost 30 years ago in a small town bar.......I was 19 years old - me and "Omaha John" were on the road hustling pool, and ended up in a small bar in South Carolina. The owner of the bar was a BIG gambler and would take the 5 and the break from anyone playing on the bar table with the Big Cue Ball.

I had been going through a time when I was "breaking even" with everyone. Usually I would get ahead, then start "letting up," they would come back, "get even" and quit. This was getting annoying and I was beginning to question if I had any "heart," or not.

This was a big thing in the gambling days, if you have the heart to close someone out. To put them away. And it was happening again, I had got up over 2k for $200. a game and now we raised it to $300. a game and the guy beat me 7 IN A ROW and we were just $100. winner.

Omaha John came up to me and said "if you're ever going to be a "road player" you better do it now. I'm not out here "for my health," I have a wife and kid at home and I have to win, breaking even is for "suckers!"

I knew he was serious, so I stopped playing and went to the bathroom. I knew it was "now or never," and I looked in the mirror. Straight into my own eyes and ask "do you really want to be a pool player, do you really have what it takes?" I hesitated slightly, waiting for the answer to come. Not the answer "I wanted to hear," I HAD to know the truth....I needed to know and my life would have to change from that moment on.

I finally knew in my "heart of hearts" that I was ready. Ready to not be a sucker and be "stuck" at my current level, struggling to break even and making up excuses. I was ready to become a winner and break out of that "victim level" and do whatever it takes to learn the Truth about pool and what it takes to be the best. I made that decision right then because I had to. And it's a decision that continues because life's much more about the "journey," than the "destination." Life is the best teacher.

Often times we are held back because we don't have to win, we don't have to get better. I didn't have the luxury that day and I thank Omaha John for putting me in a situation where I had to be honest with myself. No one else matters when you're trying to get to the "next level,"{in life} it's all about ourselves.... it's about looking ourselves in the mirror.

I went back out there and was like an entirely different person. John had been telling me to stop spinning my ball and playing low percentage shots....so I did. Others had made comments about my game that I had ignored because of my ego, so I incorporated those suggestions too.

From that point I beat the guy out of over 8K and he looked like he had been run over by a truck. I didn't care what it took I shot the right shot, in the right way and forgot forever my childish reasons for not playing the Game correctly. To be a Champion at anything we all must keep doing "the next right thing," to get results, not just do "what feels comfortable."

The main thing was I had BROKEN the chains of mediocrity and become a player. From that moment on I had a "6th Sense" about pool and knew what I HAD to practice to improve and what I needed to ignore.

I believe we all have this ability inside us, however, we can't channel it while trying to "make excuses," of why we "can't get better," it's about the decision to either commit to improving OR take a few days off and quitting entirely.


No matter what business I'm in or what game I'm playing I'll always remember that lesson Omaha John Shuput taught me in the little bar in South Carolina...that gave me "eyes" that could look myself in that mirror and "do the right thing." 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[lfigueroa]

It's about willpower, desire AND talent.

To think a talented person can get there without the desire and dedication to improve is foolhardy. But to think you can be truly elite at any sport/game without talent is just as misguided, in my opinion.

Interesting quote (from an interesting article) from Ellen Winner, Professor and Chair of Psychology at Boston College:

"But there are two logical flaws in the denial of inborn talent or intellectual potential. First, the fact that no one achieves at elite levels without significant effort shows that hard work is necessary, not that it is sufficient. In addition, the reverse is also likely: innate talent may be a necessary condition for hard work. For instance, it is highly plausible that only when playing the piano comes easily (read talent) are children willing to keep at it. Those lacking talent will find it harder to learn and are thus more likely to give up. In my book, Gifted Children: Myths and Realities, I argue that gifted children have a “rage to master” in their domain. Without this intense drive, no child will clock huge amounts of deliberate practice."

I think this is pretty much on the money. Hard work is not enough -- you have to want it too, whatever "it" is.

The talent part... I dan't know. People have argued that one of the reasons men are better at pool than women is that men are better at perceiving spatial relations. Is that a talent? What about height? Some have suggest that the Pinoys are, as a group, talented at pool because they tend to be shorter. The presumption being that shorter is better for pool. So perhaps it's more an issue of having or not having certain mental and physical traits v a talent.

Now the thing about having a "rage to master" is, IMO, very insightful. I think deep down inside all of us who have ever pursued a higher rung on the pool hall pecking order, there is some element of this. Sort of like the 97 pound weakling on the beach who gets sand kicked in his eyes and sends off for the Charles Atlas course. After our first taste of "sand" at the pool hall we work hard at the game because we don't want sand kicked in our eyes again by the bully on the beach -- we want the the admiration of onlookers, we want to look good in a swim suit, and... we want the girl

Lou Figueroa

 

[Alf Taylor]

Another thing that helps...

Walk in a pool room with fifty dollars and come out with five hundred. Then, practice the next day and watch how you're hitting them.

"When you're hitting balls good, hit lots of balls." Sam Snead

I think there are a half dozen or so basic rudiments to learn, then it's homework time and, typically, the one who hits the most balls, plays the best pool.

It's OK to reach for the stars, but have a B plan in case you miss. Gravity's a *****. Good post, Chris.

Keep it nice. Alfie