T.O.I by randyg

[randyg]

Hey Randy,

How did practice go yesterday with TOI?

Any advise you would want to share?

Thanks :smile:

John

John

Advise........
It's a little soon for me to be giving advise about TOI.

BUT

Since you asked, I would share these thoughts.

There is no "magic potion" for getting better. Good information and strong Practice habits is the way to start.

TOI asks you to trust it. I'm doing just that.
TOI is so strange to the way I was taught, I have to take my time and digest one piece of the elephant at a time.

What do I think? I think TOI is great.

randyg

 

[One Pocket John]

John

Advise........
It's a little soon for me to be giving advise about TOI.

BUT

Since you asked, I would share these thoughts.

There is no "magic potion" for getting better. Good information and strong Practice habits is the way to start.

TOI asks you to trust it. I'm doing just that.
TOI is so strange to the way I was taught, I have to take my time and digest one piece of the elephant at a time.

What do I think? I think TOI is great.

randyg

I hear ya, I've been spinning the cue ball around the table for over 50 years. That's all heard growing up as a kid, "ya gotta use high left on that shot kid".

And even in todays tutorials everyone is spinning the ball for position.

Its one heck of a transition to go from spinning the ball to not spinning the ball. Position play is the big issue, but I'm getting the hang of it.

The one thing that TOI is teaching me is dont be afraid to use inside.

TOI is great because it brings a whole new way of playing the game.

I am also waiting for Stan to finish his CTE video. I want to give that a try.

I always enjoy the opportunity to learn more about the game.

Thanks for the update. :smile:

John

 

[Papa Red]

I tried the TOI the other nite and from what I see is he aims center to center (putting a line through the center cb and the center ob) an his video says and the moves the tip to the desired aim point where you would aim the cue ball normally. I made a lot of balls doing so but as he stated it take a while to condition yourself to the fact.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Difference Between Chess and Checkers "The Analogy of TOI"

I tried the TOI the other nite and from what I see is he aims center to center (putting a line through the center cb and the center ob) an his video says and the moves the tip to the desired aim point where you would aim the cue ball normally. I made a lot of balls doing so but as he stated it take a while to condition yourself to the fact.

The TOI Game of pool is different than the pool game that's regularly played. You don't look at the table and try to conform what you think is the best shot....you shoot what the table tells/shows you to shoot using the guidelines of the "Touch" of Inside.

It's a completely different psychology of pool and this is what many players are confused about. You CAN NOT play your "regular" game or think like you have in the past and adapt to the TOI Technique.
That's why I've said over and over, you can't possible understand the TOI without experiencing it....my hats off to Randy for having an open mind, I told him his biggest obstacle is knowing TOO much about pool.

Randy's like a chess master that's trying to learn to play championship checkers....it's easier, and there are similarities, however most "chess moves" don't directly apply to checkers. This is just an analogy of course, pool is much more difficult than chess or checkers from a physical perspective.

Enjoy Your Class :thumbup: 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[stan shuffett]

The TOI Game of pool is different than the pool game that's regularly played. You don't look at the table and try to conform what you think is the best shot....you shoot what the table tells/shows you to shoot using the guidelines of the "Touch" of Inside.

It's a completely different psychology of pool and this is what many players are confused about. You CAN NOT play your "regular" game or think like you have in the past and adapt to the TOI Technique.
That's why I've said over and over, you can't possible understand the TOI without experiencing it....my hats off to Randy for having an open mind, I told him his biggest obstacle is knowing TOO much about pool.

Randy's like a chess master that's trying to learn to play championship checkers....it's easier, and there are similarities, however most "chess moves" don't directly apply to checkers. This is just an analogy of course, pool is much more difficult than chess or checkers from a physical perspective.

Enjoy Your Class :thumbup: 'The Game is the Teacher'

I grew up around championship checkers. One can become a chess master in 3/4 years or quicker with proper study. To become a master player in the game of checkers, plan on 8-10 years of 8/10 tens hours a day.
Checkers is every bit as tough as chess at the highest levels.
Stan Shuffett

 

[Husler]

I tried the TOI the other nite and from what I see is he aims center to center (putting a line through the center cb and the center ob) an his video says and the moves the tip to the desired aim point where you would aim the cue ball normally. I made a lot of balls doing so but as he stated it take a while to condition yourself to the fact.

"where you would aim the cue ball normally" I am not sure what you mean by this? can you expand on it?

 

[CJ Wiley]

You don't "aim" at the object ball (with TOI), you align to it-there's a difference

"where you would aim the cue ball normally" I am not sure what you mean by this? can you expand on it?

Originally Posted by Papa Red
I tried the TOI the other nite and from what I see is he aims center to center (putting a line through the center cb and the center ob) an his video says and the moves the tip to the desired aim point where you would aim the cue ball normally. I made a lot of balls doing so but as he stated it take a while to condition yourself to the fact.

This is what's confusing to players - You don't "aim" at the object ball (with TOI), you align to it.....that's the difference that makes the difference with TOI...once I ALIGN to the object ball I hardly even notice it again, UNTIL after I hit it and follow the object ball into the pocket.

You MUST see where you hit the final target and that is the pocket. This is what gives you the feedback to know if you need to slightly adjust (TOI or Speed) on the next shot.

 

[Husler]

I have a feeling he may be talking about an equal opposite kind of aiming method and he has reversed it to help find the tip position inside. This actually maybe a helpful way to shoot “touch of inside” with some tweaking until you get the feel of the angles and tip positions.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the "Touch" of inside (center) gives us the most feel/touch, so why not use it?

I have a feeling he may be talking about an equal opposite kind of aiming method and he has reversed it to help find the tip position inside. This actually maybe a helpful way to shoot “touch of inside” with some tweaking until you get the feel of the angles and tip positions.

Yes, maybe....it appears to me that most people think they're aiming at the object ball with the cue ball.....this is true to a point, however, they are only {physically} contacting the cue ball......so they must be aiming at the cue ball or at least they should be.

The question might be "can you aim at cue ball and the object ball at the same time?" I really don't know the answer to that, my question is "why would you want/need to?"

If you can develop the TOI system you only need to "aim" at your "Tip Target," there's no "aiming" at the object ball, I align to the object ball the same way no matter what the angle.....like it's a straight in shot to either the Center or the Edge....using the TOI of the cue ball EVERY TIME....the "Touch" of inside (center) gives us the most feel/touch, so why not use it? 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

After working with the TOI for a couple of months, I also figured out the CTC alignment technique. Dave Yeager gave up something very similar years ago, but I was too thick to catch on. I felt he was holding back and being secretive.

You've said it hundreds of different ways and probably gotten thousands of questions, but to your credit, after following your instructions I finally saw the light. Just like using the TOI, you will not understand it completely until you work with it. And I did for many hours. Now that I've implemented the CTC setup, my TOI has also improved. I'm achieving even more positon zones than I did before. I can see how you do what you're doing on your videos, and starting to do those things, too.

Almost all shots can be made with a CTC alignment except when the balls are close to each other. Even thin cuts. The problem I had was that I'd been aiming at a contact point for years and couldn't understand how aiming CTC, with no angle being created between the balls could allow me to pocket the object ball. I ASSumed that I just made an adjustment as I got down on the shot. Crazyness...That's where I was wrong. I just didn't listen to what you were saying. Your critics aren't listening either, but you really have fed the fish and I thank you.

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm glad it go the light to go fully on, Mike.....I knew you were getting close

After working with the TOI for a couple of months, I also figured out the CTC alignment technique. Dave Yeager gave up something very similar years ago, but I was too thick to catch on. I felt he was holding back and being secretive.

You've said it hundreds of different ways and probably gotten thousands of questions, but to your credit, after following your instructions I finally saw the light. Just like using the TOI, you will not understand it completely until you work with it. And I did for many hours. Now that I've implemented the CTC setup, my TOI has also improved. I'm achieving even more positon zones than I did before. I can see how you do what you're doing on your videos, and starting to do those things, too.

Almost all shots can be made with a CTC alignment except when the balls are close to each other. Even thin cuts. The problem I had was that I'd been aiming at a contact point for years and couldn't understand how aiming CTC, with no angle being created between the balls could allow me to pocket the object ball. I ASSumed that I just made an adjustment as I got down on the shot. Crazyness...That's where I was wrong. I just didn't listen to what you were saying. Your critics aren't listening either, but you really have fed the fish and I thank you.

Best,
Mike

I know it's challenging, especially if you've always played by trying to hit the cue ball into the object ball's "contact point" (ghost ball) and make the shot.....you have to change that way of thinking.

Pool at the highest level is about creating angles, not pocket balls. When I'm training someone to use TOI, the first thing I usually have to do is take the pocket OUT of the equation. Sometimes I have to take the object ball out of the equation too.

It's about the Cue Ball, that's your target and that's the only thing you physically touch. Sounds simple, yet very few really understand how the TOI Technique is utilized to create a situation that you can make any shot by aligning Center to Center (cue ball to object ball) or Center to Edge on every shot, no matter what the angle is.

Sounds SO easy, yet there's players that will argue to the bitter end that it doesn't work. Yet I can beat the ghost and run 29 balls in one pocket using AND explaining the system as I play. Doing it is pretty tough, let's see anyone else in the world describe, in detail, how they're doing it as they play.

They may be able to describe what they're doing[/B], but I'm explaining HOW I'm DOING IT.....that's "the difference that makes the difference," and I'm glad it go the light to go fully on, Mike.....I knew you were getting close, sometimes it help to actually see it being done, and that's what I was doing for those that "have pool eyes that can see and pool ears that can hear"....'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Ralph Kramden]

Yes, maybe....it appears to me that most people think they're aiming at the object ball with the cue ball.....this is true to a point, however, they are only {physically} contacting the cue ball......so they must be aiming at the cue ball or at least they should be.
The question might be "can you aim at cue ball and the object ball at the same time?" I really don't know the answer to that, my question is "why would you want/need to?"

If you can develop the TOI system you only need to "aim" at your "Tip Target," there's no "aiming" at the object ball, I align to the object ball the same way no matter what the angle.....like it's a straight in shot to either the Center or the Edge....using the TOI of the cue ball EVERY TIME....the "Touch" of inside (center) gives us the most feel/touch, so why not use it? 'The Game is the Teacher'

Like I once heard a golf pro say... Your target isn't the green... Your target is the golf ball... You'll never hit the green until you can hit the ball correctly.

 

[Mikjary]

I know it's challenging, especially if you've always played by trying to hit the cue ball into the object ball's "contact point" (ghost ball) and make the shot.....you have to change that way of thinking.

Pool at the highest level is about creating angles, not pocket balls. When I'm training someone to use TOI, the first thing I usually have to do is take the pocket OUT of the equation. Sometimes I have to take the object ball out of the equation too.

It's about the Cue Ball, that's your target and that's the only thing you physically touch. Sounds simple, yet very few really understand how the TOI Technique is utilized to create a situation that you can make any shot by aligning Center to Center (cue ball to object ball) or Center to Edge on every shot, no matter what the angle is.

Sounds SO easy, yet there's players that will argue to the bitter end that it doesn't work. Yet I can beat the ghost and run 29 balls in one pocket using AND explaining the system as I play. Doing it is pretty tough, let's see anyone else in the world describe, in detail, how they're doing it as they play.

They may be able to describe what they're doing[/B], but I'm explaining HOW I'm DOING IT.....that's "the difference that makes the difference," and I'm glad it go the light to go fully on, Mike.....I knew you were getting close, sometimes it help to actually see it being done, and that's what I was doing for those that "have pool eyes that can see and pool ears that can hear"....'The Game is the Teacher'

When I started to use the CTC setup, I had to switch back and forth and use the CTE setup to make all my shots. After experiencing using the pocket connection, I used the CTE setup less and will probably only go to it if the balls are close together in the future. I used CTE beginning at about 2 diamonds away and after a short period of time I'm only using it at about a little more than a diamond apart.

The part of the technique that puzzled me was the pocket connection. I connected to the cue ball and had no problem understanding the alignments, but I had to "work" at understanding the connection to the pocket. Then I finally realized that the connections were not physical or visually conscious connections. The trust you spoke about was actually me letting my subconscious come to the forefront by simply giving it a look at the shot laid out in front of me. My thinking mind was estimating the speed and tip position on striking the cue ball to get my position while my subconscious was getting my eyes and body in the correct alignment to pocket the ball.

As I stood in my CTC alignment, I subtly noticed my hand on my cue slightly moving behind the line of the shot. If I thought about it, it wouldn't work. When I got down on the shot I wasn't looking at a spot on the object ball, ghost ball or measuring a double the distance point. I was simply looking at the object ball and trusting my line up. But my mind is certainly aiming on a different level I can only guess about.

The best part is my stroke is coming straight through and I'm really controlling the cue ball well. I truly have to commit to the shot or all bets are off. I learned to commit when I learned Stan Shuffett's Pro One system. Players are wondering if these two systems are compatible. Of course they are! They both do the same thing. They put your eyes/body in the best possible position to pocket the ball. I learned to trust my alignment from using Pro One and am just supplementing my game with what you are teaching. I say learn them both and increase your understanding of how the eyes lead the way.

Best,
Mike

 

[Husler]

On a CTC alignment shot you will gradually move your tip more inside as the angle becomes steeper until you get to a half ball hit. Once you get to a half ball hit, it will become a CTE alignment and you start over again, moving your tip more inside as the angle becomes steeper. You have two starting points that will mirror each other. This is why you should use Cj's two alignments with this system... I believe I am correct on all this even though I have not tried the system yet as described on the TOI videos?

 

[ENGLISH!]

On a CTC alignment shot you will gradually move your tip more inside as the angle becomes steeper until you get to a half ball hit. Once you get to a half ball hit, it will become a CTE alignment and you start over again, moving your tip more inside as the angle becomes steeper. You have two starting points that will mirror each other. This is why you should use Cj's two alignments with this system... I believe I am correct on all this even though I have not tried the system yet as described on the TOI videos?

'Sir',

You've stated it fairly well. I am working on getting to using just those two(2) alignments but the 'system' also works if one uses their own 'aiming system' to the full hit side of the pocket & use the squirt to add a bit of cut to the middle of the pocket. Naturally, that way is a bit more 'complex', but it does work.

Regards,

 

[Mikjary]

On a CTC alignment shot you will gradually move your tip more inside as the angle becomes steeper until you get to a half ball hit. Once you get to a half ball hit, it will become a CTE alignment and you start over again, moving your tip more inside as the angle becomes steeper. You have two starting points that will mirror each other. This is why you should use Cj's two alignments with this system... I believe I am correct on all this even though I have not tried the system yet as described on the TOI videos?

I don't think this is correct. The more I use the method, the less I use the CTE option. The test is in your starting alignment and connecting the cue ball, object ball and the pocket. I cue the same on every shot, allowing for speed as my determining factor to pocket the ball and my position. The only time I make a change is due to physical conditions of the table changing or dirty balls, etc. Then, I only cue a hair more or less, inside or out.

My aiming alignment is established before I get down on the shot due to shot speed. My critical alignment is consciously seeing the CTC setup and letting my inner mind get the snap shot of the correct line up. This connection lets my subconscious mind set up the solution to pocketing the ball without interference from me.

This is what we do in dead whack. We have no memory of our shot progression because our conscious mind didn't order any of the results and is a bystander/witness.

Best,
Mike

 

[Husler]

I don't think this is correct. The more I use the method, the less I use the CTE option. The test is in your starting alignment and connecting the cue ball, object ball and the pocket. I cue the same on every shot, allowing for speed as my determining factor to pocket the ball and my position. The only time I make a change is due to physical conditions of the table changing or dirty balls, etc. Then, I only cue a hair more or less, inside or out.

My aiming alignment is established before I get down on the shot due to shot speed. My critical alignment is consciously seeing the CTC setup and letting my inner mind get the snap shot of the correct line up. This connection lets my subconscious mind set up the solution to pocketing the ball without interference from me.

This is what we do in dead whack. We have no memory of our shot progression because our conscious mind didn't order any of the results and is a bystander/witness.

Best,
Mike

Now if you are saying you are cueing the same amount inside for every shot, this tells me you are aiming for a specific point on the object ball. You are also not parallel and having the perception of every shot being a straight in shot like Cj has been saying. I also do not know of the level you are at with TOI, maybe what you are saying is what it will evolve too?

 

[Husler]

Now if you are saying you are cueing the same amount inside for every shot, this tells me you are aiming for a specific point on the object ball. You are also not parallel to the ctc/cte line and having the perception of every shot being a straight in shot like Cj has been saying. I also do not know of the level you are at with TOI, maybe what you are saying is what it will evolve too? I have not tried this technique yet on a table.

 

[LAMas]

On a CTC alignment shot you will gradually move your tip more inside as the angle becomes steeper until you get to a half ball hit. Once you get to a half ball hit, it will become a CTE alignment and you start over again, moving your tip more inside as the angle becomes steeper. You have two starting points that will mirror each other. This is why you should use Cj's two alignments with this system... I believe I am correct on all this even though I have not tried the system yet as described on the TOI videos?

Welcome,
I concur. Well stated.

 

[LAMas]

Now if you are saying you are cueing the same amount inside for every shot, this tells me you are aiming for a specific point on the object ball. You are also not parallel to the ctc/cte line and having the perception of every shot being a straight in shot like Cj has been saying. I also do not know of the level you are at with TOI, maybe what you are saying is what it will evolve too? I have not tried this technique yet on a table.

Correct again.
CJ started his threads by proffering that he uses fractions on the CB aimed at the center and edge of the OB, but that has morphed into TOI with adjustments.