Samsara Break Tip Fail - what did I do wrong?

kavik79

kavik79

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
About a week ago I put a Samsara break tip on a shaft. I used it to practice some breaks one day (about 20-25 racks), then used it at league night last week (about a dozen racks), then used it about 8 times last night.....until it flew off the stick :frown:

I've only re-tipped a few sticks myself, but this is the first one that's come off on me. The stick has been kept in my case, in my apartment...no moisture issues or extreme temperature changes or anything like that.

Here's the process I used:
Shaft was a more or less brand new Players shaft, maybe hit 20 balls
Cut off the original tip with a razor as close as possible without hitting the ferrule
Put the shaft in the "Lathe" (it's really more of a drill powered jig, but it's solid and balanced, works fine for light work like this)
Sanded through the rest of the tip, then scuffed the surface of the ferrule with some 220 paper
Roughed up the back of the tip on some 220 paper
Applied Loctite Gel SuperGlue, one that was labeled specifically to be resistant to high impacts, evenly across the surface of the tip
Stuck it on and kept pressure on it for about a minute, waited about 10 minutes before continuing
Used a razor blade while it was on the lathe to trim the sides and shape the tip
Final shaping of sides and cleaning up the ferrule was a progression from 400-1000 grit wetsanding
Tip sides were burnished with a drop of water and a piece of scrap leather
let it sit a day to cure before testing


Everything came out looking perfect. No gaps, nothing uneven, you couldn't even feel the transition from the ferrule to the tip.
Everything was fine the first two nights of use, and the first few hits last night. Then on one break it sounded a little funny, but I chalked that up (pun intended :p) to being such a hard tip and figured maybe I mis-cued a little.....though it didn't seem like it. Then on the next break it flew off and landed on the other side of the table


So, did I do something wrong?
Should I be using an epoxy instead of this glue for a break tip?
Or do I need to do more than just scuff the back of the tip with such a hard leather? Hit it with a tip pick maybe?

thank in advance
 
Last edited:
I'm not very good at keeping phenolic tips on either but here's a few things you might want to try.

Make sure to use the Ultra Loctite Gel. http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/sg_ug_cntrl/overview/Loctite-Super-Glue-ULTRA-Gel-Control.htm

Also make sure the tip does not heat up when sanding it down. I find it's best to trim as close as possible with a lathe and then wet sand slowly. Do not let the tip or ferrule get close to 180°F. http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/SG_UG_CNTRL_tds.pdf

I think phenolic and other very hard tips don't stick very well to cheap ferrules, so you might have better luck with a higher quality ferrule. I'm not sure which ones are the best.
 
Samsara tips are notorious for coming off with self-install jobs. Next time maybe try cutting the height in half of the tip to reduce sideways force on the tip. I've heard some ferrule materials aren't conducive to bonding well with these tips as well. Or try using epoxy.
 
mnShooter said:
I'm not very good at keeping phenolic tips on either but here's a few things you might want to try.

Make sure to use the Ultra Loctite Gel. http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/sg_ug_cntrl/overview/Loctite-Super-Glue-ULTRA-Gel-Control.htm

Also make sure the tip does not heat up when sanding it down. I find it's best to trim as close as possible with a lathe and then wet sand slowly. Do not let the tip or ferrule get close to 180°F. http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/SG_UG_CNTRL_tds.pdf

I think phenolic and other very hard tips don't stick very well to cheap ferrules, so you might have better luck with a higher quality ferrule. I'm not sure which ones are the best.
Click to expand...

Yup, that's the exact glue I've got. It's possible I overheated it while sanding/burnishing it...although it never seemed too hot to touch. If that was the case, wouldn't it have failed a lot sooner?

Forgot to mention, I also gave it 10 minutes before working on it, and there was a day in between finishing it and using it

I don't think I'm up to the task of changing out the ferrule. I have no idea how these Players ferrules rate, but it's a 13mm ferrule with about 2.5mm of wood showing in the center. the entire tip sheered clean off, it feels like the glue stayed on the tip and on the small center wood, but not on the ferrule


wontonny said:
Samsara tips are notorious for coming off with self-install jobs. Next time maybe try cutting the height in half of the tip to reduce sideways force on the tip. I've heard some ferrule materials aren't conducive to bonding well with these tips as well. Or try using epoxy.
Click to expand...

I'll keep that in mind, but will try the epoxy before cutting the tip down



Someone else PMed me to suggest that I put a layer of glue on the tip and let it dry frist, to act as a barrier and stop the glue from soaking into the tip.

My thoughts so far are:
-Sand everything back down
-Would I still seal the back of the tip with glue if using epoxy?
-Try using epoxy and leave it clamped overnight
-curse and moan about trying to line up the tip, since there's no room now for turning it down to match lol
 
I'm in Rugby, ND right now at Samsara Cues. Here's the recommendation we've got.

Use 3M Scotchweld Epoxy (DP420)
3M product link - http://bit.ly/XPPg9o

This will take a couple of hours to set. Of course the tip once installed will last a very long time, so you've just got to be a little patient on installation.
 
Fieldhammer said:
I'm in Rugby, ND right now at Samsara Cues. Here's the recommendation we've got.

Use 3M Scotchweld Epoxy (DP420)
3M product link - http://bit.ly/XPPg9o

This will take a couple of hours to set. Of course the tip once installed will last a very long time, so you've just got to be a little patient on installation.
Click to expand...

well, I guess a source for a recommendation doesn't get much better than that. Thanks! :thumbup:
 
It seems lots of people have issues with phenolic tips and the hard tips like samsara.

I do my tips by hand without a lathe.

I do let these hard tips sit up overnight once glued up.
Knock on wood, never had one come of mine that I have done.
I also do local players tips as well.

I think it has more to do with you not letting the glue sit longer. Try that and I am sure you will be just fine.

One thing I can not comment on is wet sanding the tip. Never done that before :smile:
 
Cyanoacrylate glues perform best when a thin bond line is applied, therefore, when applying the tip you should press firmly to ensure a thin bond between the tip and the ferrule. (Apply force to the middle of the tip to reduce eccentricity).

I always try to clean both surfaces with some isopropyl, or methanol works too but make sure the surfaces are dry before you apply the glue (I use a lighter after to burn off any remaining vapor).

Loctite Ultra Gel sets in 60 seconds, so holding it down for a full minute is necessary to ensure a good bond. It will cure to full strength within 24 hours, so if you want to be sure that you do not disturb the set when you are cutting the tip you can wait a day but I usually start work after leaving it aside for 10 minutes.

It is always a good idea to clean the tip with a lint free cloth after you scuff it to get rid of the leather dust that can impair your bond (no different from bonding a dirty tip)

Know the characteristics of the glue you are working with, cyano is particularly weak in the shear plane but the ultra gel is abit better.

Temperature wise, lower temperatures are better, generally with higher temperatures you may cure it quicker but it will lead to a more brittle bond which is no good for breaking.

Always a good idea to look at spec sheets of the glues that you are working with.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/SG_UG_CNTRL_tds.pdf for the ultra control gel

http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/tech-data-sheet-search-5118.htm?countryCode=us&BU=industrial&parentredDotUID=0000000GHE&redDotUID=tdssearch&param1=pageIndex%3D-1%7Ckeywords%3Dcyano%7Caction%3Dsearch%7CcontextPK%3D39994396698423248%7C for other cyano glues from loctite,

The general trends for a material will not change such as declining strength with temperature so if you do your research and understand the chemical it will take you far.
 
Fieldhammer said:
I'm in Rugby, ND right now at Samsara Cues. Here's the recommendation we've got.

Use 3M Scotchweld Epoxy (DP420)
3M product link - http://bit.ly/XPPg9o

This will take a couple of hours to set. Of course the tip once installed will last a very long time, so you've just got to be a little patient on installation.
Click to expand...

This. DP420. Also, sanding with 220 is not good. Use a 60 grit. The super hard tips need a rough surface for the glue to grab on to. 220 is too smooth.
 
Its best to prime the back of the tip with thin CA. For really hard tips, scratch some really healthy cuts on the back of the tip so the thin CA has something to grab on to. You don't have to soak the tip with thin CA, that'll just make the whole tip hard as a rock. Put the thin CA on a Q-tip, rub the Q-tip around on the back of the tip, then spray accelerator. You can even prime the top of the ferrule. Then use LocTite Ultra Control Gel. With this method, the thin CA gets a good hold on the tip, and the Loctite gets a good hold on the thin CA.
 
Are you sure that the ferrule is faced off and flat? Most tips will pop off if the ferrule is uneven, it must be flat. I've never had a samsara tip come off. I use loctite gel, faced off ferrule, Emory cloth the tip, a little rough up on the ferrule and glue on. I normally let it sit for 15 minutes and then cut it down and shape. Never had a problem.
 
Samsaras are a popper for most.
Dp 420 is very good, expensive, and requires a special gun and dispenser tips to use.
I doubt very much that you will go that route.
More likely is the Ferrulle is way too soft and is compressing more than the tenon.
And voila, tip pops off.
You can try using a tip pad,
Most likely replace the ferrule.
 
I'm fairly sure the ferrule was still flat when I was done with it. I hit it with a flat file while it was on the lathe. When I scuffed it I used a DMT sharpening plate as a backing for the sandpaper. I'll triple check before I put it back on next time


cuejo said:
Samsaras are a popper for most.
Dp 420 is very good, expensive, and requires a special gun and dispenser tips to use.
I doubt very much that you will go that route.
More likely is the Ferrulle is way too soft and is compressing more than the tenon.
And voila, tip pops off.
You can try using a tip pad,
Most likely replace the ferrule.
Click to expand...

You know....I just came back here to check on the thread after reading up about the DP 420. You're right, I'm not spending that much money on an epoxy that I have exactly one use for
Thank you for the comment about the ferrule. I didn't understand exactly why one ferrule would cause problems over another, but now I see

If that's what's happening, it seems like a tip pad might separate eventually too.
I may be thinking about this wrong...but, let's say, considering the part of the tenon that's showing through is only 2.5 mm out of 13 mm......what if I just drilled down the tenon by half a mm or so, so even if the ferrule compresses, the wood wouldn't 'pop out'? Maybe a dumb question, but can't hurt to ask (i hope :p)

It's a very small percentage of the surface area....looks kinda like this:
porper-1in-ferrule.jpg


I really don't want to get into replacing the ferrule if I don't have to. This was supposed to be a cheap, temporary solution....my old butt and the shaft off a cheap cue with a hard tip....shoulda been simple LOL
 
kavik79 said:
I'm fairly sure the ferrule was still flat when I was done with it. I hit it with a flat file while it was on the lathe. When I scuffed it I used a DMT sharpening plate as a backing for the sandpaper. I'll triple check before I put it back on next time




You know....I just came back here to check on the thread after reading up about the DP 420. You're right, I'm not spending that much money on an epoxy that I have exactly one use for
Thank you for the comment about the ferrule. I didn't understand exactly why one ferrule would cause problems over another, but now I see

If that's what's happening, it seems like a tip pad might separate eventually too.
I may be thinking about this wrong...but, let's say, considering the part of the tenon that's showing through is only 2.5 mm out of 13 mm......what if I just drilled down the tenon by half a mm or so, so even if the ferrule compresses, the wood wouldn't 'pop out'? Maybe a dumb question, but can't hurt to ask (i hope :p)

It's a very small percentage of the surface area....looks kinda like this:
porper-1in-ferrule.jpg


I really don't want to get into replacing the ferrule if I don't have to. This was supposed to be a cheap, temporary solution....my old butt and the shaft off a cheap cue with a hard tip....shoulda been simple LOL
Click to expand...

That has been known to help.
Slightly hollowing the tenon.
Tip pad will be better.
Even better would be to get carbon fiber tip pads from OB cues
 
cuejo said:
Lol
I wouldn't.
If you hollow the tenon,
You will just end up filling the hollow with glue.....
Second verse, same as the first
Click to expand...

LOL yeah...thought maybe the glue would compress more like the ferrule and less like the wood. Or I have some glue here that dries like a hard rubber I could've filled the hole with, then sealed with a layer of CA

Okay, skipping the drilling and the epoxy for now, I'll try this:
-resurface the ferrule
-sand down the back of the tip
-rougher than 220 paper for scuffing up the ferrule
-get very rough with the leather, scuffing and add a few shallow cuts
-seal the back of the tip with a layer of thin CA, scuff when dry
-glue to pad
-glue tip/pad to ferrule
-clamp and let sit for a day
-clean up the edges without the lathe, so I don't heat up the glue
-hopefully get more than 50 breaks out of it next time :thumbup:

.....if not, the more times I have to do this, the better I get at tip replacement, right? :yes::lol:


thanks for all the great replies so far. If anyone else has more to add, I'm sure I'll have a few days before I can get a pad delivered
 
Just finished up putting this all back together, thought I'd share the results so far...

I had read where someone had real good luck with layering tip pads, so I thought I'd give that a go. (If it doesn't work out, I have 2 spares and can redo with a single layer if I have to.....though, to be honest, if it comes apart again I may as well get the new ferrule like people suggested, and start with a fresh tip)

(feel free to skip to the bottom, I just want to document my steps in case this still doesn't work)

The Process:
-cleaned up all the old glue from the tip, scuffed with 60 grit paper and added a few shallow slices, threw a layer of thin CA on it, let dry, scuffed again lightly
-re-surfaced the ferrule again with a flat file, scuffed with 60 grit, applied a base layer of thin CA and lightly scuffed again
-scuffed up both sides of both pads, cleaned with alcohol, glued with Loctite gel and clamped together for a while
-glued the double pads to the tip with Loctite gel and clamped for a while
-used a razor and sandpaper to cut off the excess width from the pads, to get it as close to the tip diameter as possible
-glued tip/pad combo to ferrule and clamped overnight
-threw it on the 'lathe' and used razors and sandpaper to get the ferrule and tip matched up on the edges again.....lost probably a little less than a quarter of a mm because things just didn't quite line up this time around
-with the pads the tip looked way too long, so I took the advice of cutting it down a couple layers
-wet sanded the ferrule and the sides of the tip, scratched the hell out of the ferrule accidentally when I was tapering it down initially, so I then applied a layer of CA on the ferrule, wet-sanded some more, then polished with Mothers aluminum polish on felt, then final buff and burnishing done with a piece of scrap leather

The Results:
Came out looking decent. A couple scratches still visible in the ferrule, but I don't feel like messing with it anymore today LOL
And the sides of the tip....well, the pictures will show just how much you can polish up this hard of a leather :thumbup:

Shot over a White Stripes album sleeve, to keep the white, red and black theme going :D
SamsaraTip_v2_1.jpg

SamsaraTip_v2_2.jpg



I'll update again when I have a chance to use it for a bit....that'll be the one that really counts
 
I have not had this problem, but I have had two different Samsara break tips delaminate, and one of them more than once... The first one was left with about 3 layers, the second one popped the top two layers, and then later another couple of layers.

I'm hesitating to put another one on.

- s.west
 
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