When does a shot end?

Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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In a local tournament a problem came up with whether the timing of a foul is important. In particular, the player made the point but then failed to get his hand off the table in time and a moving ball touched his hand. Clearly this is a foul, but the TD was wondering whether the point counts.

Two questions:

1. How would you play it?

2. Which rule is applicable?

USBA rules were in force.
 
I don't know a rule either. Seems like one should not benefit from a turn at the table that included committing a foul.

In my opinion the turn at the table (when is the shot over?) is done when all the balls stop rolling or stop moving(as in fouling an object ball).

Pocketing a ball is not the only element of the turn at the table-in my opinion-but I don't know the rule(s).
 
IMHO I would say rule 18 of the USBA rules would apply.
The player inning is over because of the foul. The rule does not specifically say whether the foul was incidental to making the point or not.
As long as the balls are in motion, the inning is in play. And, therefore, the foul would terminate the inning and disallow the point.
Bob, I'm surprised at you. I thought you had all the answers, not the questions.
 
Rule 2(g) says: "A shot is completed after all 3 balls have stopped moving or spinning."

Therefore, if a foul occurs, even after the point is made (but before the balls have stopped moving), it is foul for that shot so the point does not count.
 
jimshovak said:
Rule 2(g) says: "A shot is completed after all 3 balls have stopped moving or spinning."

Therefore, if a foul occurs, even after the point is made (but before the balls have stopped moving), it is foul for that shot so the point does not count.
Click to expand...
I see that now, but I think it also needs to say explicitly that if the player commits a foul before the shot is completed, the point does not count. The start of rule 2 says:
2. A three-cushion billiard is valid and is a count of one when the cue ball has touched both of the object balls and has made three or more cushion impacts before striking the last object ball. ​

This can be read as saying that whatever happens after the scoring contact has no effect on the count.
 
I have spoken about this with Bruce Warner and we both agree that something should be added to make it more clear such as:

"2. A three-cushion billiard is valid and is a count of one when the cue ball has touched both of the object balls and has made three or more cushion impacts before striking the last object ball and no foul has occurred before the shot is completed (see rule 2(g))".

"2(g): A shot is completed after all 3 balls have stopped moving or spinning."
 
Brunswick Rules @1910

" .....Should he disturb a ball after having played a counting stroke, the count is void, his hand is out and the ball so disturbed is replaced."
 
Well, actually, I am not familiar with that Brunswick reference. Is that a pool rule or a 3-cushion billiard rule? Not sure. Also, I don't know what this part means: "...his hand is out and the ball so disturbed is replaced."

His hand is out? What does that mean?
The ball is replaced? How, exactly? Replaced with what?
 
georgie-porgie said:
Jim shovak, Bruce Warner,
Can anything be more explicit than Mr Bonds previous entry in this post?
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It would be clearer if it were in modern English. But that old rule says that if you score a point and then, before shooting another shot, touch a still ball, that ball is put back and you do not get the point you just scored. So far as I know, there is no modern game that is played that way.

"His hand is out" is an antique way of saying "his inning ends."
 
The rule now is that if you score a point and all the balls have stopped moving (or spinning) and then you foul, the point counts but the inning ends. Also the ball that is fouled does not get put back. It stays wherever it ends up.
 
jimshovak said:
The rule now is that if you score a point and all the balls have stopped moving (or spinning) and then you foul, the point counts but the inning ends. Also the ball that is fouled does not get put back. It stays wherever it ends up.
Click to expand...

I hear ya - and call me crazy, but doesnt that leave room for someone to foul on purpose? or move a ball on purpose?

I'll respond about my previous post 2morrow.
 
Yes it does. The USBA has a rule # 18 which deals with that possibility:

"18. If a player at the table is responsible for interference in any manner, it is a foul, and the inning ends. The incoming player must accept the balls in position. If a referee is officiating and determines that the interference was intentional, the shooting player may be issued a warning or be disqualified. If the shooter is not disqualified, then the opponent shall have the option of accepting the balls in position or may elect to play a break shot. In a tournament, if no referee is officiating, the tournament director shall have the right to invoke this rule. If a player is disqualified for violation of this rule more than one time, the USBA Board of Directors may ban the player from one or more future USBA events or impose conditions for participation in future USBA events."
 
jimshovak said:
Well, actually, I am not familiar with that Brunswick reference. Is that a pool rule or a 3-cushion billiard rule? Not sure. Also, I don't know what this part means: "...his hand is out and the ball so disturbed is replaced."

His hand is out? What does that mean?
The ball is replaced? How, exactly? Replaced with what?
Click to expand...

The rule I posted was a general (3ball) carom rule, that by default also applied to 3cushion in the absence of a more specific rule. (not unlike the "general rules" of pocket billiards that apply to all games unless a specific game requires something different)

As Bob pointed out, due to the foul, the player's inning would be over, no points given, and the ball in question would be (re)placed (by the ref) as close as possible to where it was. (or would have been)


jimshovak said:
Yes it does. The USBA has a rule # 18 which deals with that possibility:

"18. If a player at the table is responsible for interference in any manner, it is a foul, and the inning ends. The incoming player must accept the balls in position. If a referee is officiating and determines that the interference was intentional, the shooting player may be issued a warning or be disqualified. If the shooter is not disqualified, then the opponent shall have the option of accepting the balls in position or may elect to play a break shot. In a tournament, if no referee is officiating, the tournament director shall have the right to invoke this rule. If a player is disqualified for violation of this rule more than one time, the USBA Board of Directors may ban the player from one or more future USBA events or impose conditions for participation in future USBA events."
Click to expand...

Ok good - thanks for clarifying.

Although, in my own humble opinion, I feel that this type of foul should result in the loss of (at least) the point scored during the shot preceding the foul.

Thats my 2cents, dont spend it all in one place :)
 
How the UMB handles their world cup fouls

ARTICLE 24

ITEM 2. a CANNON is amde as soon as the cue ball sets into motion by the stroke of the cue comes into contact with the two other balls.
Item 3. A Cannon is VALID if the 3 balls are at rest, if the player does not commit a fault and he respects the conditions imposed by the affected kind of game.

Essentially, what it is saying a CANNON may have been made, but it is not valid until the balls have come to rest and the player has not fouled.

This is the cusp of the original post by Mr. Jewett said the point was made, however, the balls were still in motion and the player fouled. Therefore, the point is not valid.
 
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