What's wrong with APA rules?

[justadub]

Here is a silly one. Last night in appa 9 ball the other teams had 5 but there numbers didn't work. They had a 7,6,6,3,2 we had a 9,4,4,3 We were short one because at the last minute someone couldn't show up. So technically according to the Apa they had to take 2 forfiets because they had 5 but couldn't play all 5 or the way around it Is for one of there players to leave and act like they only had 4. I'm relatively new to Apa but that seemed silly and childish so I acted like an adult and said look as long as your not trying to just play your high players we will just each take a forfiet. They had no plans to play both there 6s and 7 so no problem so it was cool. One of my players got pissed and walked out. Fortunately they already played lol wtf is the big deal. It was the last night of the session and we had first locked up. God let's just play and have some fun.

Not sure why the first team couldn't play four, and only take one forfeit. So long as they didn't play the 7 and both 6's....so long as they had someone else on their roster who was an SL5 or lower to assign the forfeit to (such that they "could have" met the 23 rule with the people who played, plus the forfeited player).

 

[nrhoades]

The one thing that I didn't like was that the venues moved around to different bars, many with only one table. I got bored waiting my turn to play.

APA is better than no APA, where the bush-leagues are the only option.

 

[lorider]

Trob - you think THAT is silly?

I was at my friends' bar a couple months ago just shooting the shit and he told me about what happened during the APA league.

One of the two teams showed up early to practice, but their captain was on the phone with the LO. The other team showed up early too. The captain from the first team put the captain from the second team on the phone. There was a big argument and the second team ended up walking.

Evidently, a guy that was on the second teams roster passed away. But next to his name on the roster was a 'Past Due' amount of $25 for his yearly membership.

He died without ever shooting a game and the team just left him on the roster as a little tribute.

The first teams captain called the LO and demanded a forfeit for dues outstanding.

I doubt if they were awarded the forfeit and I think the other team just walked over the sheer stupidity.

that goes beyond stupidity man. i may be wrong but it would only be a forfiet if someone played who owed dues which is obviously not the case here.

crap like this is what gives leagues a bad name.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I shot in the APA for 10 years. The two things that helped my game the most was first joining the APA and then quitting it.

These are just a quick 5 off the top of my head. I'm sure I could think of more if I had too.

APA 9ball.

1) Biggest thing wrong is lack of push. You can be punsihed for making a successful break by being hooked.

2) Ball Count scoring. You can make every 9ball and still lose.

3) No three foul rule. With the three foul rule you really have to think twice about playing the intentional foul shot. Without it there is no possible method of punishment if you play a successful intentional foul safe shot.

4) No Jump cues. (this could go either way depending on your views of jump cues, but being an amateur league and jump cues making it easier for an amateur to jump...)

5) Leaving Jumping and Masse rules up to the establishment since it is their equipment. I understand the establishment doesnt want hacks to do this and rip their cloth, but if you want the APA in your bar you should be made to conform with a standard (higher then what they do) which allows jumping and masse shots.

That was just the big 5 in my opinion

 

[justadub]

I shot in the APA for 10 years. The two things that helped my game the most was first joining the APA and then quitting it.

You played a long time. Thus, I'm sure you have seen more than enough APA to understand my counter-points...

These are just a quick 5 off the top of my head. I'm sure I could think of more if I had too.

APA 9ball.

1) Biggest thing wrong is lack of push. You can be punsihed for making a successful break by being hooked.

Try administering that rule among beginners, and the typical APA crowd. It would be a nightmare. AND it favors the higher skilled player, NOT the target demographic for APA.

2) Ball Count scoring. You can make every 9ball and still lose.

Or you could have make the 9, win the game....and have every beginner taking a flyer to combo the 9 every chance they get, and not actually play the table. "Hit it hard, and see what happens..." (Which of course is within the standard 9-ball rules, yet "slop' is the biggest cry against APA 8-ball)

3) No three foul rule. With the three foul rule you really have to think twice about playing the intentional foul shot. Without it there is no possible method of punishment if you play a successful intentional foul safe shot.

Again, favors the accomplished player, and penalizes the beginner, the target demographic for APA.

4) No Jump cues. (this could go either way depending on your views of jump cues, but being an amateur league and jump cues making it easier for an amateur to jump...)

See above. Again.

5) Leaving Jumping and Masse rules up to the establishment since it is their equipment. I understand the establishment doesnt want hacks to do this and rip their cloth, but if you want the APA in your bar you should be made to conform with a standard (higher then what they do) which allows jumping and masse shots.

So you would rather NOT have your league played in a venue that would not allow masse and jump shots, and NOT have more people playing in your league as a result. Great business plan, limit your opportunities, to make the folks who AREN'T your target demographic happy. Let alone the added difficulty in administering rules for those shots in a league marketed for beginners.

That was just the big 5 in my opinion

I understand why you don't like those rules. I'm not arguing that you are wrong to want to play that way. It's just not the business plan that APA set up, and has been tremendously successful with. Given who they are trying to market their league to, all of those rules make perfect sense. And they don't really affect the gameplay all that much, that often. Because if the better player can't win using those rules, maybe they really aren't "better" after all...

 

[Icon of Sin]

If you don't like playing in a handicapped league..... it's because you are just not good enough.

What I mean to say is that you are not as good as you think you are. If you were, you would win every game and not be concerned with your opponents handicap.

Kim

This is completely absurd. I quit the league because of the rules and locations I had to play at.

<----9 in 9ball, 7 in 8ball. Can hold his own.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I understand why you don't like those rules. I'm not arguing that you are wrong to want to play that way. It's just not the business plan that APA set up, and has been tremendously successful with. Given who they are trying to market their league to, all of those rules make perfect sense. And they don't really affect the gameplay all that much, that often. Because if the better player can't win using those rules, maybe they really aren't "better" after all...

In regards to your argument with number 1:

APA is team based. You can give a free time out to the lower skill level players for the push shot.

In regards to number 2:

Please!!! Let them try to ride the 9 on every shot. It's better then racing my 75 to their 14 LOL.

In regards to number 3:

I see where you are coming from, but something must be done to minimize intention foul safeties. But hwo do you do that without another absurd rule LOL

In regards to number 4:

I have taught SL2s to successfully jump with a jump cue. The jump cue makes jumping easy.

In regards to number 5:

I would want to play in a venue that does allow Jumping and Masse shots. Point being I have played league in an actual poolhall (not some janky bar) that requested people not jump or masse. Plus since their is no uniformity, if I shoot this shot with the owner not looking it is legal. Hell if I shoot this shot with the owner looking I would get warned not to do it again. OK. What if that is the shot to win the game? What if I need two points and I just broke and I am hooked on a dead 1-9 and the jump is perfect? I'm jumping and taking the warning.

We can go back and forth with the arguments all day. Some people like the leagues, some don't. Personally I dont have anything against the APA. I have made some great friends and learned a shit ton about how to play from it. However the better I got the more I wanted to play and get better with the correct rules and how pool is played in the rest of the world.

 

[uwate]

ive played APA now for about 3 years. Im a 9/7 speed player so the rules I dislike are in fact good for the lower ranked player who lack the skills to use these rules to their advantage easily (and therein is the reason why they exist as the apa does not cater to the higher level player...they are a tiny minority of who pays the bills for apa)
1) no pushout after the break
2) no three foul rule
3) no jump cues
4) no open table after the break if you make a ball in eightball.

All of the above are far from deal breakers for me and I play and enjoy apa.

The one aspect of APA that I find very disturbing, and this applies to basically all leagues, is that it encourages players to not improve. I have been specifically told by my own capt to not teach a player because they didnt want the player to get raised. I have seen many players who play without any ambition to get better, again because they dont want to get raised. Even many of the players who do say they want to get better, are making it difficult to do so because they are always stalling in match play because they dont want to get raised.

Ive thought it on more than one occasion that had I gotten involved with APA when I was just learning to play pool, it would have likely stunted my growth as a player because so many people (including myself probably) would have tried to hold my development back, all in the name of protecting handicaps.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Trob - you think THAT is silly?

I was at my friends' bar a couple months ago just shooting the shit and he told me about what happened during the APA league.

One of the two teams showed up early to practice, but their captain was on the phone with the LO. The other team showed up early too. The captain from the first team put the captain from the second team on the phone. There was a big argument and the second team ended up walking.

Evidently, a guy that was on the second teams roster passed away. But next to his name on the roster was a 'Past Due' amount of $25 for his yearly membership.

He died without ever shooting a game and the team just left him on the roster as a little tribute.

The first teams captain called the LO and demanded a forfeit for dues outstanding.

I doubt if they were awarded the forfeit and I think the other team just walked over the sheer stupidity.

I agree with lo, this is stupid beyond stupid. If the LO backed up that ass the LO should be taken out and stoned with at least 10 full racks

 

[Celophanewrap]

Here is a silly one. Last night in appa 9 ball the other teams had 5 but there numbers didn't work. They had a 7,6,6,3,2 we had a 9,4,4,3 We were short one because at the last minute someone couldn't show up. So technically according to the Apa they had to take 2 forfiets because they had 5 but couldn't play all 5 or the way around it Is for one of there players to leave and act like they only had 4. I'm relatively new to Apa but that seemed silly and childish so I acted like an adult and said look as long as your not trying to just play your high players we will just each take a forfiet. They had no plans to play both there 6s and 7 so no problem so it was cool. One of my players got pissed and walked out. Fortunately they already played lol wtf is the big deal. It was the last night of the session and we had first locked up. God let's just play and have some fun.

Who was on the rosters that weren't there? What s/l's?

 

[BrokeStroke]

that goes beyond stupidity man. i may be wrong but it would only be a forfiet if someone played who owed dues which is obviously not the case here.

crap like this is what gives leagues a bad name.

I agree completely. But it happens night in and night out. Teams trying to win the match before it starts by calling the LO with petty reasons and stupidity.

It happened the first night I played on a team. I had no idea what was going on. The second time it happened, myself and 2 others packed up and walked. It is embarrassing to try to gain anything that way.

I can only speak about my experiences in the area where I shot, and this shouldn't reflect the entirety of the league.

I agree with lo, this is stupid beyond stupid. If the LO backed up that ass the LO should be taken out and stoned with at least 10 full racks

The LO didn't side with them, and ended up giving that entire team a sportsmanship violation and gave them the opportunity to replay the match or forfeit their points to the other team.

I just confirmed this with my bar-owning buddy over the phone this morning. I called and had to find out what was done.

 

[trob]

Who was on the rosters that weren't there? What s/l's?

for them ? They have don't have a low enough number that they can play both there 6s and 7 that's why I said as long as your only playing 2 of the 3 I don't care.

 

[justadub]

for them ? They have don't have a low enough number that they can play both there 6s and 7 that's why I said as long as your only playing 2 of the 3 I don't care.

The larger issue with that is that teams are not allowed to play thre players SL6 or higher in a 9-ball match. No matter whether or not they have two SL1's or other combination that fits. It's called "the Senior Level rule", and for some reason it only applies to 9-ball, not 8-ball.

So that team either must have more players on its roster, or if those players are all they have, then one of the SL6's must have just gone up from being a SL5. If they had any other player on their roster SL5 or lower, even tho not present, then they could have played two of the three "senior level" players and the two lower level players that were present, and then forfeited just one match.

Seems to me that if they were forced to forfeit two matches, they must not have any other players on their roster.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

Not to comment on the APA itself as a league, but what I don't like about the rules...

1. Make a ball inadvertently and you keep shooting.

2. Table not open after the break if you make a ball.

3. 8-ball on the break is a win.

4. Scratching on the 8 is a loss.

These are all contrary to the WPA/BCA/Valley standard (I include Valley since it's much the same as BCA/BCAPL). What I like about the "standard" rules are the following concepts...

A. You don't get rewarded for screwing up.

B. You don't get punished excessively for screwing up.

C. You have to earn the win.

Now I do like the APA's ball in hand rules - it's just the same as the "standard". BUT, I always thought it was rather odd and inconsistent that they employ this one "good" rule in combination with the other "bad" rules.

Fatz

 

[Ken_4fun]

Not to comment on the APA itself as a league, but what I don't like about the rules...

1. Make a ball inadvertently and you keep shooting.

2. Table not open after the break if you make a ball.

3. 8-ball on the break is a win.

4. Scratching on the 8 is a loss.

These are all contrary to the WPA/BCA/Valley standard (I include Valley since it's much the same as BCA/BCAPL). What I like about the "standard" rules are the following concepts...

A. You don't get rewarded for screwing up.

B. You don't get punished excessively for screwing up.

C. You have to earn the win.

Now I do like the APA's ball in hand rules - it's just the same as the "standard". BUT, I always thought it was rather odd and inconsistent that they employ this one "good" rule in combination with the other "bad" rules.

Fatz

My problem with this thread is there were a number of great ideas for APA rule changes and then "some" folks say is there is no problem or changes needed.

Maybe these have been discussed before, but if you look at the true honest suggestions, I do think they are good ones mentioned.

JMO

Ken

 

[justadub]

My problem with this thread is there were a number of great ideas for APA rule changes and then "some" folks say is there is no problem or changes needed.

Maybe these have been discussed before, but if you look at the true honest suggestions, I do think they are good ones mentioned.

JMO

Ken

"Some people" think that all of the suggestions make perfect sense for more serious, and experienced players, and I agree.

But "some people" also understand that the countries biggest and most successful pool league make decisions based on what makes their league, one that is based on attracting beginners to pool, work smoothly.

I get it, I really do. When I'm not playing leage, I play call pocket, too, for 8-ball. I have played push out (and three foul) 9-ball too. (I can't opererate a jump cue properly yet, due to lack of experience) I understand why a more serious approach makes sense to folks who are more serious about their game.

APA decided on beginners for their market, rather shrewdly. They have set up a system that works well within that market, and refined their rules accordingly. Many of those rules, defined here, go against the way "better" players play, and that fact rankles those players.

Hubbert and Bell are laughing. They figured it out, and it pissed many of you off.

Stop taking yourselves so seriously. You all enjoy looking down your noses at APA anyway....

 

[bigshooter]

The biggest problem with the APA is the handicapping system. Many better players only feel good about themselves when they thrash lesser players and make them want to quit the game. These 'ball bangers' feeling somewhat even with us is a real kick in the face.

Second biggest problem with the APA is that they have brought a quarter million people into the game of pool. Jerks! Seeing all these 'ball bangers' filling up bars and pool rooms is a real irritation. Serious players looking for cheap table time while drinking water get a little miffed when they are forced to play near people having fun and spending money.

 

[Banks]

Everybody's quick to say what they don't like about the rules. There are some things that others don't like, but I actually do like.

1. No jump cues. Learn how to kick, it's not that hard. On second thought, keep not knowing how to kick. :thumbup:

2. No push in 9b. "I'm so good.. blah blah blah." Yet, you can't break and not hook yourself. Heck, everybody runs 9-packs here, but they can't leave themselves a shot or kick well. Go figure. APA 9b taught me how to play 9b - control the table.

3. Take what you make. It's good and bad, really. At least if you get the bad suit off the break, you have to work for the win.

4. I don't care much for the 3-foul rule. A post above mentions having to 'earn' the win.. but you could easily crap away a game with the 3-foul rule, too.

4a. If you're scratching on the 8, don't get all uppity. You're not as good as you talk.. I did it last night, but I know I'm not that good, so I don't go around whining about it(especially since it's my own fault).

As for the handicaps.. if you don't learn how to win against a lower ranking, especially one that's playing well, you're going to have a bad time. If you don't learn how to win against a higher ranking, you're going to have a bad time. Lastly.. if you pizza when you should french fry, you're going to have a bad time.

This has been a public service announcement.
-SBag

I still like BCA rules, too. I just like to play.

 

[nine_ball6970]

Not to comment on the APA itself as a league, but what I don't like about the rules...

1. Make a ball inadvertently and you keep shooting.

2. Table not open after the break if you make a ball.

3. 8-ball on the break is a win.

4. Scratching on the 8 is a loss.

These are all contrary to the WPA/BCA/Valley standard (I include Valley since it's much the same as BCA/BCAPL). What I like about the "standard" rules are the following concepts...

A. You don't get rewarded for screwing up.

B. You don't get punished excessively for screwing up.

C. You have to earn the win.

Now I do like the APA's ball in hand rules - it's just the same as the "standard". BUT, I always thought it was rather odd and inconsistent that they employ this one "good" rule in combination with the other "bad" rules.

Fatz

Maybe I am just ignorant, but under what rules is scratching on the 8 not a loss?

 

[leto1776]

Maybe I am just ignorant, but under what rules is scratching on the 8 not a loss?

Under actual BCA rules. I was surprised by this when reading the rule book, also.