'Pendulum' Stroke 'Sweet Spot' ?

[Ratta]

Wow,

been not so much online latley- forum overlay changed and a nice *old* discussion came up again. Especially on the topic *pendulum vs piston* and all of it s variations you can find so many extremly helpful articles on this forum.

I m a bit unsure what the question was really asking for-after reading the most replys in this discussion.

If we talk about "finding the sweet spot", we are talking about an easy and at the same time one of the hardest things to learn in billiards. Without "working out" the sweet-spot with a player or for a player, there will never be a repeatable stroke which would let him send whitey always from Point A to Point B.
So if someone hasn t found his sweet-spot- what then? then you will start to observe the player and analyse him- and then will workout STEP BY STEP to bring him to a point, where he will be able to create a repeatable and straight stroke.

This all ends again in practicing hard to increase his fundamentals. I never had a player where we (me and the player) would have to correct just a single issue. It has ALWAYS been a mixture of several single issues- and then you as an instructor have to workout a structured "step-by-step plan* to make it understandable for the student. Once the fundamentals getting better and better and by *feeling* and *seeing* the result what good fundamentals the player will increase much faster- because he will see the light at the end of the tunnel.

One of my students, a strong 100 ball runner, had a terrible issue: He was not able to hit cueball precisley. But he was for sure able to send the cueball from A to B. Otherwise he wouldn t ve been able to run out big packs of 8b, 9b, or 100 balls in 14.1
In his case it was wrong alignment, wrong stepping into the shot (wrong perception), shoulder movement, elbow movement---
His tip jumped all over the cueball during his *funny practice strokes*.
When he saw the first time his stroke from several point of views on video.....he understood why my first comment was *oh my god*, lol.


Sorry for getting maybe a bit off -topic.
My opinioin is finally, that nothing fits for everyone- but one thing is 100% sure. You have to find a way for a player, which will bring him finally to execute a repeatable stroke- so that he can send cb from A to B. To reach this important goal with a pure pendulum stroke, a mixture from pendulum/piston, or with a piston stroke....who cares? This is something a qualified instructor/teacher has to see after observing his student long enough.

But i can tell you, that almost everyone hated me at the beginning (kind of ), especially the stronger students.-- but finally benefit from practicing some rigid and boring drills..........to see clearly what a deadstraight and repeatable stroke will do for your game.

Video and much table time do wonders for everyone. And i m still a big believer of transferring also the theoretical knowledge to a student. To tell him why he has to do this or that-to reach a goal or a result.

That s why i love to help players- because it s always a challenge to find the solution for each individual human.


I Hope it was readable enough- and that i was able to show what i meant

 

[Tony_in_MD]

It was actually my third.

That said, I don't think there is a good reason in continuing this discussion, as it appears to facilitate arguments.

Why is THAT your first post it the thread?

 

[BeiberLvr]

How would one define my stroke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPDmGvoP2I

 

[FranCrimi]

How would one define my stroke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPDmGvoP2I

Restricted.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Wow,

been not so much online latley- forum overlay changed and a nice *old* discussion came up again. Especially on the topic *pendulum vs piston* and all of it s variations you can find so many extremly helpful articles on this forum.

I m a bit unsure what the question was really asking for-after reading the most replys in this discussion.

If we talk about "finding the sweet spot", we are talking about an easy and at the same time one of the hardest things to learn in billiards. Without "working out" the sweet-spot with a player or for a player, there will never be a repeatable stroke which would let him send whitey always from Point A to Point B.
So if someone hasn t found his sweet-spot- what then? then you will start to observe the player and analyse him- and then will workout STEP BY STEP to bring him to a point, where he will be able to create a repeatable and straight stroke.

This all ends again in practicing hard to increase his fundamentals. I never had a player where we (me and the player) would have to correct just a single issue. It has ALWAYS been a mixture of several single issues- and then you as an instructor have to workout a structured "step-by-step plan* to make it understandable for the student. Once the fundamentals getting better and better and by *feeling* and *seeing* the result what good fundamentals the player will increase much faster- because he will see the light at the end of the tunnel.

One of my students, a strong 100 ball runner, had a terrible issue: He was not able to hit cueball precisley. But he was for sure able to send the cueball from A to B. Otherwise he wouldn t ve been able to run out big packs of 8b, 9b, or 100 balls in 14.1
In his case it was wrong alignment, wrong stepping into the shot (wrong perception), shoulder movement, elbow movement---
His tip jumped all over the cueball during his *funny practice strokes*.
When he saw the first time his stroke from several point of views on video.....he understood why my first comment was *oh my god*, lol.


Sorry for getting maybe a bit off -topic.
My opinioin is finally, that nothing fits for everyone- but one thing is 100% sure. You have to find a way for a player, which will bring him finally to execute a repeatable stroke- so that he can send cb from A to B. To reach this important goal with a pure pendulum stroke, a mixture from pendulum/piston, or with a piston stroke....who cares? This is something a qualified instructor/teacher has to see after observing his student long enough.

But i can tell you, that almost everyone hated me at the beginning (kind of ), especially the stronger students.-- but finally benefit from practicing some rigid and boring drills..........to see clearly what a deadstraight and repeatable stroke will do for your game.

Video and much table time do wonders for everyone. And i m still a big believer of transferring also the theoretical knowledge to a student. To tell him why he has to do this or that-to reach a goal or a result.

That s why i love to help players- because it s always a challenge to find the solution for each individual human.


I Hope it was readable enough- and that i was able to show what i meant

Ratta,

I appreciate your input. It seems that instructors don't want to answer the question for some reason. You & a few others have basically pointed out that there are students that need help. If not there would be no need for instructors & basically instructors would not exists & would not be here on AZB.

That is not the point of this thread. I have asked what biomechanical mechanism(s) would allow or make the tip travel straight along the vertical axis, as randG asserted in another thread.

Only Chris/Renfro & Neil have attempted to explain or show how that might happen. I thank them again for their efforts. I now have a better understanding of what is accepted or considered as a pendulum stroke. Before this thread, I would called those strokes a hybrid of some sort & they may still be.

However, no instructor has even attempted to explain the biomechanics that would allow the tip to travel straight along the vertical axis for several inches as randyG asserted.

How does one create that ''sweet spot" with a fixed elbow 'pendulum' stroke is my question.

I saw it as nearly impossible before this thread as I thought that part of the 'pendulum' prescription included a craddle grip that would not allow any feathering open to change the angle between the cue & the pendulum rod/forearm.

Apparently though, even with some feathering open of the grip the butt of cue will still rock up & down & back up in a fixed elbow pendulum stroke which means that the tip is moving down, up & down again.


It seems to me that the pendulum stroke seems to create issues that then need to be either overcome or mastered by the one using or learning it, rather than fixing what might be some issue in one's natural stroke.

Please Ratta, I would appreciate you trying to explain to me what biomechanics would allow or make the tip travel straight along the vertical axis when one is using a pendulum stroke with a fixed elbow.

It seems that no instrustor can or is wiling to explain that on this forum, or at least not in this thread,

Thanks again for you input & thanks in advance should you endeacor to explain how the 'sweet spot' is possible with a fixed elbow pendulum stroke.

Best Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

It was actually my third.

That said, I don't think there is a good reason in continuing this discussion, as it appears to facilitate arguments.

Sorry, I had not noticed the other two.

The only thing approaching an argument is due to Neil & his personal 'insults'.

Every other exchange has been civil even though there is some disagreement.

Can you explain what biomechanics allows for several inches of straight line tip travel along the vertical axis with a fixed elbow pendulum stroke, as randyG asserted in that other thread.

Thanks to Chris/Renfo & Neil I now see where a grip adaptation away from the craddle grip lessens the slope angle but I still don't see any straight line tip travel unless the cue is then pushed forward with the new angle that has been created & that would be more of a pistion stroke by Renfro's definition.

What are your thoughts on the biomechanics of a fixed elbow pendulum stroke that would allow vertically straight line tip travel?

Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

How would one define my stroke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPDmGvoP2I

First let me start out by saying, good shooting.

I would say that you are 'inconsistent'. By that I mean you are a mixed bag & I personally have no problem with that. In fact, I think that is what pool seems to require & more so on big tables.

The video quality was not that good as it had alot af glare coming off the table but I think I picked up on two things. One is your grip hand is not always directly under your elbow. your hand is closer in to your body than your elbow. Maybe that is what Ms. Crimi meant by 'restricted'. I'm not certain because of the camera angles but it appeared to be such on a few shots. Second it appeared that you rolled your wrist a few times as well.

I don't mean to be critical as I said good shooting & I am not certain as I say the angle & quality was not the best. I am just offering these two things for you to maybe check, that's all.

Best Regards,

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I cannot speak for others, but I will tell you why I have not participated in this "discussion"

I have no desire to spend my time in a discussion that will lead to nothing but more explanations, theories or opinions. Having to wade through posts who's length rival some novels is not how I need to spend my time.

Besides it appears to me that you got your answer so what more information could you possibly want regarding the importance of the grip?

You are set in your ways and beliefs that the way you stroke a ball is better. Fine, I am happy for you that you are pleased with your game. Do we really need to read about it again and again?

I have seen this movie before and I am not buying a ticket.

Tony---> I'm outta here.

Sorry, I had not noticed the other two.

The only thing approaching an argument is due to Neil & his personal 'insults'.

Every other exchange has been civil even though there is some disagreement.

Can you explain what biomechanics allows for several inches of straight line tip travel along the vertical axis with a fixed elbow pendulum stroke, as randyG asserted in that other thread.

Thanks to Chris/Renfo & Neil I now see where a grip adaptation away from the craddle grip lessens the slope angle but I still don't see any straight line tip travel unless the cue is then pushed forward with the new angle that has been created & that would be more of a pistion stroke by Renfro's definition.

What are you thoughts on the biomechanics of a fixed elbow pendulum stroke that would allow vertically straight line tip travel?

Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

I cannot speak for others, but I will tell you why I have not participated in this "discussion"

I have no desire to spend my time in a discussion that will lead to nothing but more explanations, theories or opinions. Having to wade through posts who's length rival some novels is not how I need to spend my time.

Sorry for the length of some of my posts but I have learned that if one is not specific & complete that one's words can be twisted & distorted & then I spend 'all' of my time correcting the false 'assertions'. I thought you would want to spend your time teaching about how to stroke a cue ball & why one should do it that way. I thought that that was the purpose of this sub forum. Apparently there may be another purpose for it.

Besides it appears to me that you got your answer so what more information could you possibly want regarding the importance of the grip?
I don't believe that there has been any definitive statement made, especially by any instructor. The feathering open of the non-craddle grip lessens the slope angle of the cue but I still do not see any straight line tip travel unless the the cue is then pushed straight as in Renfo's definition which would be more like a piston action.

You are set in your ways and beliefs that the way you stroke a ball is better. Fine, I am happy for you that you are pleased with your game. Do we really need to read about it again and again?

I am not so set in my ways. I just learned CJ Wiley's TOI & it works better with a different grip & type of stroke than what I had been using. This is not about just me & what stroke I will use but hopefully to help anyone, even those that only read & never post, if they are having trouble with their stroke & so that they can make an objective decision as to what type of stroke that they may want to use. When you say 'again and again', do you mean like the repeated exhaultation of the 'pendulum' stroke that seemingly instructors can not or will not answer what should be a simple question.

I have seen this movie before and I am not buying a ticket.

I don't think any of this has anything to do with entertainment. If you don't want to participate that's your perogative. but please don't try to stop anyone from trying to learn something by saying that it is time for the thread to end. I don't think there has been any definitive support for what randyG asserted in the other thread. I am still looking for that definitive answer.

Tony---> I'm outta here.

Okay...you seem to be just another one that either does not know the answer or simply will not provide one here on AZB.

Regards & have great day & better tommorrows,

 

[Scott Lee]

Jon...I watched the first rack, and what I saw was what looks to me to be an accurate representation of a quality pendulum stroke, with little to no elbow drop. As far as the other comment...I don't even know what "restricted" means. Looks to me like you get good action on the CB with what you're doing. Until I see you personally, I can't find any fault with what you're doing (sometimes we can "see" things in slow motion...sometimes even one frame at a time...that we can't see in real time)! I'll be coming through CO right after the trade show in Chicago (7/8-10), if you're interested in getting together.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

How would one define my stroke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPDmGvoP2I

 

[Scott Lee]

Rick...This first sentence clearly illustrates how you still do not understand the dynamics of a pendulum stroke, the way we teach it. The cue is not on a "downward arc" when at ball address (contact with CB). When the grip is in the correct corresponding place to the bridge length the cuestick is as level as it can be, and as level as necessary to the shot. The 'downward arc' occurs with the natural finish of the stroke line, and has nothing to do with what happens after the CB leaves the tip. In other words, once the CB leaves the tip nothing else can have any effect on the outcome. We all have a natural start and finish to our strokes. The SPF pendulum is just one way to create a measurable, accurate and repeatable way to set up and deliver the cuestick.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

While I do think that the cue moving straight through the cue ball vs moving through the cue ball on a downward arc as it is in contact with the ball can make a significant difference, especially when trying to hit with top contact, it is of more of a consideration if one can hit the cue ball exactly where on the vertical axis of the cue ball one intends with the cue rocking up & down & the tip doing so as well vs. that of a cue & tip that is moving in a straight line. The straight line movement seems more conducive to me by both my experience & thought process.

You refer to a simplfied movement of fewer moving parts. What good is that if eliminating one moving part results in the cue rocking up & down as well as the tip vs a straight line movement of the cue & tip.

Basically that is what it comes down to. Which yields more straight line movement of the cue & tip & is it worth sacrificing all or almost all of that straight line cue & tip movement to focus on keeping the elbow still vs simply allowing it to move to obtain the more straight line movement of the cue & tip.

You & others say that it is more simple to keep ones elbow fixed in space vs allowing it to drop when it wants to drop so the cue & tip can move in a straight line.

Basically I disagree with that line of thinking & I do not think that sacrificing all or nearly all of the straight line cue & tip movement makes sense when it is simply not that difficult at all to just let one's elbow drop when it wants to in order to keep the cue & tip moving in a straight line.

Focus on moving the cue & tip straight with no conscious thought to one's elbow vs focusing on keeping one's elbow still & the cue & tip does not move nearly as straight if at all.

Allowing the elbow to move takes no conscious thought at all.

So, which one is more simple & which one yields a straighter travel of the cue & tip?

To me, that is the choice to be made. To me they are one & the same.

I know that you probably don't concur given your SPF status.

I quess it may be like Okie/Ken said, I may be beating a dead horse, at least in certain corrals.

Regards,

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Thank God this game is played on a table and not through words on a forum.

In other words take what was discussed and try it on the table. If you are so inclined record and post it so we can all have a common frame of reference for review and discussion.

Okay...you seem to be just another ome that either does not know the answer or simply will not provide one here on AZB.

Regards & have great day & better tommorrows,

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[JoeW]

Please keep in mind that a 'normal' wrist movement from the momentum of the arm swing which would be 'natural' would accentuate the inclined slope angle of the cue.

A 'normal' wrist action does not in any way off set the angle created by the arm swinging up.

If one grabs the cue tight with no 'grip action' or 'feathering' open then the angle is dependent on the arm swinging up. If the arm & butt end connected to it swing up then the tip moves down & vise versa.

It would take a 'reverse' wrist action to counter the up swing of the forearm.

Keep in mind that the point of this thread was to find out how & what biomechanism would allow or make the cue & tip move in a straight line for several inches.

It has become apparent that with a fixed elbow the mechanism is a 'grip action' that without such the butt of the cue would raise up which makes the tip go down & vise versa.

Apparently there are many 'pendulum' strokes. A pendulum stroke is ANY stroke where the elbow does not move during the stroke.

There can be a 'pendulum' stroke with or without wrist action & there can be a pendulum stroke with or without a 'grip action'. The key is that any stroke where the elbow does not move is a 'pendulum' stroke.

Your wrist comment may or may not be applicable depending on an accomodating 'grip action'.

I hope you can see the biomechanics.

Regards,

Apparently, this has turned into a discussion thread so I will offer my thoughts which are not in support or refutation of anyone's position. The idea behind a pendulum stroke is the first part of the stroke. What happens at the end of the stroke is up for grabs.

I think that a flat trajectory is accomplished in a pendulum stroke by extending the Adductor Polis Muscle using the ligaments and muscles in the palm and wrist. That is, while elbow is pinned, there is no necessity for swinging the wrist joint in a pendulum motion.

Extending the wrist with the use of the APM is what the SPF school refers to as the "Finish" position or against the chest. This will extend the length of time (and distance) the cue tip is on a flat trajectory.

How one uses the fingers to accomplish this action is probably a moot point as there are apparently many ways to use one's fingers.

To see this in operation watch the pros break shot. See the linked article for several photos of the APM extension.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/ShootLikePros.htm.

While these are admittedly power shots, the action of the follow through is easily seen.

I would not be surprised to learn in a study of many professionals that they begin with a pendulum stroke and use the wrist to end with something like a piston action. I think that a rock solid shoulder position which is based on a flat footed stance are the key elements. Pushing or pulling the cue stick is a preference and as snooker players have shown the pushing action can be highly accurate.

Over time a pendulum stroke beginning may evolve into a piston stroke from start to finish. But there is no necessity for one or the other to evolve as evidenced by watching several pros. In many, not all, of the photos in this article you can see that the pros (on a power shot) tend to drop their elbows. Evidently a pendulum stroke is not "required" for all shots.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. Lee,

I appreciate your civil input & hope we can have a civil & logical discussion. Please excuse me but I am going to go through your comments to set a base of what needs to be made clear & not taken for granted or out of context. So please see my comments in blue throughout your quoted text.

Rick...This first sentence clearly illustrates how you still do not understand the dynamics of a pendulum stroke, the way we teach it. I believe that I do 'fully' understand but I may be wrong & randyG's assertion regarding several inches of straight line tip travel in a fixed elbow 'pendulum' stroke spurred me to seek a better understanding in case that there was something perhaps that I did not understand. The cue is not on a "downward arc" when at ball address (contact with CB). Okay, let's not have any confusion by distortion here. Naturally the cue nor the tip can not be on a "downward arc" when at a motionless set position. BUT when the stroke is made & the cue & the tip are in motion they can & do move on an arc unless the cue is moving straight along it's linear line. That is a simple scientific fact. When the grip is in the correct corresponding place to the bridge length the cuestick is as level as it can be, and as level as necessary to the shot. Who decides what is as 'level as necessary to the shot'? BUT...'level' is not what is at issue here. As all of us should know the cue is almost never 'level'. So... straight line cue & tip travel is what we are concerned with here & not 'level'. The 'downward arc' occurs with the natural finish of the stroke line, and has nothing to do with what happens after the CB leaves the tip. This is what we are discussing. What biomechanics would result in the tip not moving on a downward arc either just before or during contact or after the ball is gone? If it is moving on the downward arc after the ball is gone, then it was moving on the upward arc during contact. For that to NOT be the case it would require some straight line tip travel as randyG asserted or it would require PERFECT set up & PERFECT biomechanical execution to time the contact at the EXACT POINT when the swing of the 'pedulum' rod, the forearm, changes from the downward moving arc to the upward moving arc. If there is no straight line movement then one of those two(2) things is ocurring. You simply saying it does not, does not make it so, especially if you can not, do not, or will not provide a biomechanical explanation as to why. , In other words, once the CB leaves the tip nothing else can have any effect on the outcome. We are not discussing after the ball leaves the tip. We are discussing what biomechanical mechanism would allow or make the cue & tip travel in a straight line along the vertical axis for several inches as randyG asserted in the other thread. We all have a natural start and finish to our strokes. The SPF pendulum is just one way to create a measurable, accurate and repeatable way to set up and deliver the cuestick. Okay, I can go along with that given one can do that all over the table with various distances of reach, etc. but what about the several inches of straight line tip travel with a fixed elbow pendulum to which randyG asserted to in the other thread? That is what we are trying to determine here. We are not discussing whether or not one can contrive a way to create a measured, accurate & repeatable way to set up. That is not the issue. It is the actual stroke & the path of the cue & the tip that is at issue.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Sir,

Now...look at all of that blue text that was needed to just make clear just what the points of contention & disagreement that are actually the focus of this thread & not all of that other off topic & inapplicable material.

So Sir, can you & will you please provide & explain what biomechanical mechanism(s) would make or allow for the straight line tip travel of the cue stick & the tip on the end of it for several inches to which randyG asserted that exists in a fixed elbow 'pendulum' stroke? Also if they exist can you please explain them in the timing of the stroke as it approaches the cue ball and during contact with the cue ball.

As I have stated, this may change my opinion of the fixed elbow 'pendulum' stroke. Thanks to Chris/Renfo & Neil I have a bit of a new perspective of what some consider to qualify as a pendulum stroke, which was different than I had thought before as I had thought that the 'craddle' grip was part of the prescription of the SPF pendulum stroke.

Also, let me state that my previous & still present concern is what would be better to allow one to put the cue tip on the ball more precisely along the vertical axis of the ball, a tip that is moving down, up & down, or a tip that is moving along a straight line toward its target.

So here is the opportunity. What will you do with it?

Maybe we can even become 'friends' or at least friendly.

With Reserved Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Apparently, this has turned into a discussion thread so I will offer my thoughts which are not in support or refutation of anyone's position. The idea behind a pendulum stroke is the first part of the stroke. What happens at the end of the stroke is up for grabs.

I think that a flat trajectory is accomplished in a pendulum stroke by extending the Adductor Polis Muscle and the ligaments in the palm and wrist. That is, while elbow is pinned, there is no necessity for swinging the wrist joint in a pendulum motion.

Extending the wrist with the use of the APM is what the SPF school refers to as the "Finish" position or against the chest. This will extend the length of time (and distance) the cue tip is on a flat trajectory.

How one uses the fingers to accomplish this action is probably a moot point as there are apparently many ways to use one's fingers.

To see this in operation watch the pros break shot. See the linked article for several photos of the APM extension.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/ShootLikePros.htm.

While these are admittedly power shots, the action of the follow through is easily seen.

I would not be surprised to learn in a study of many professionals that they begin with a pendulum stroke and use the wrist to end with something like a piston action. I think that a rock solid shoulder position which is based on a flat footed stance are the key elements. Pushing or pulling the cue stick is a preference and as snooker players have shown the pushing action can be highly accurate.

Over time a pendulum stroke beginning may evolve into a piston stroke from start to finish. But there is no necessity for one or the other to evolve as evidenced by watching several pros. In nearly all of the photos in this article you can see that the pros (on a power shot) tend to drop their elbows. Evidently a pendulum stroke is not "required" for all shots.

Thanks Joe,

I have said a couple of times that a wrist action similiar to what CJ Wiley calls his 'hammer action' would do two things.

One it would change the angular relation between the cue & forearm & secondly it would have the effect of changeing the distance of the 'pendulum' rod to a small degree, that is, the distance from the fixed elbow & the connection point to the cue. For that to be most effective it would take a bit of timing & it would take a conscious effort to some extent as it is in the opposite direction that the 'pendulum' arm swing would want to throw that non-rigid, loosely connected second rod which would be the hand.

The second effect would be minimal IMO compared the angular change. The interesting thing is that if the angle remained constant, which it can not as the tip movement would be in yards not inches, the tip would come up on the forward end of the pendulum & actually point to the sky. The wrist action along with the looser connection & perhaps a bit of rotary action actually gets the the tip to move downward before it wants to come back up as the arm swings or swings AND moves forward as evidenced by a few of those pics. Also notice a few significant elbow drops, either after or before contact.

Thanks again for providing some thoughts regarding the biomechanics involved.

Best Regards,

 

[JoeW]

Here is another way to think about the mechanics. A piston in a car is driven by a rod attached to a cam shaft. The rod is moving in an elliptical path. The piston moves up and down vertically (in a flat head 6 )because of the articulation (joints) that are designed into the combustion engine.

Something similar can be used in the pendulum swing. The cue stick is the piston. The rod and connecting joints are akin to the shoulder, wrist and fingers.

I usually smile when I watch Alex Pagulayan or Francisco Bustamante play as their strokes make me think of a car engine.:grin:

 

[JoeW]

Thanks Joe,

The second effect would be minimal IMO compared the angular change. The interesting thing is that if the angle remained constant, which it can not as the tip movement would be in yards not inches, the tip would come up on the forward end of the pendulum & actually point to the sky. The wrist action along with the looser connection & perhaps a bit of rotary action actually gets the the tip to move downward before it wants to come back up as the arm swings or swings AND moves forward as evidenced by a few of those pics. Also notice a few significant elbow drops, either after or before contact.

Thanks again for providing some thoughts regarding the biomechanics involved.

Best Regards,

With sufficient extension and mental intent there is no particular reason that I can see why the stick has to come up. Use of the fingers in conjunction with the wrist action can (as in I do it) keep the stick on the table for many shots.

BTW the range of motion for the wrist is about three - four inches (or more depending on body type) for the type of pool stroke we are discussing. It is probably two inches inches if only the thrusting motion from a vertical position is used. Add in the length of the fingers minus the grip and you can probably pick up another couple of inches of wrist thrust. It is conceivable that the wrist hand and fingers could account for four to six inches of thrust from vertical.

I considered CJ's wrist action and think that he loses some range of motion with his hammer grip. It works wonders for him, but not for me!

 

[ENGLISH!]

With sufficient extension and mental intent there is no particular reason that I can see why the stick has to come up. Use of the fingers in conjunction with the wrist action can (as in I do it) keep the stick on the table for many shots.

BTW the range of motion for the wrist is about six - eight inches (or more depending on body type) for the type of pool stroke we are discussing. It is probably three - four inches if only the thrusting motion from a vertical position is used.I considered CJ's wrist action and think that he loses some range of motion with his hammer grip. It works wonders for him, but not for me!

Thanks Again Joe,

In my earlier post I prefaced with, if the angle remained the same...the the tip would 'want' to come up. It would & it would probably be near to two(2) yards. But that is a big IF as obviously we are not going to ALLOW that to happen, at least not until after we hit the ball with the cue & allow our wrist to return to nuetral.

I agree regarding CJ. He is utilizing that action a bit differently & with a firm tennis grip form a different set up but the action & the angular results are the same.

Again Best Regards,

 

[FranCrimi]

Jon...I watched the first rack, and what I saw was what looks to me to be an accurate representation of a quality pendulum stroke, with little to no elbow drop. As far as the other comment...I don't even know what "restricted" means. Looks to me like you get good action on the CB with what you're doing. Until I see you personally, I can't find any fault with what you're doing (sometimes we can "see" things in slow motion...sometimes even one frame at a time...that we can't see in real time)! I'll be coming through CO right after the trade show in Chicago (7/8-10), if you're interested in getting together.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

re·strict
[ri-strikt] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
to confine or keep within limits, as of space, action, choice, intensity, or quantity.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Here is another way to think about the mechanics. A piston in a car is driven by a rod attached to a cam shaft. The rod is moving in an elliptical path. The piston moves up and down vertically (in a flat head 6 )because of the articulation (joints) that are designed into the combustion engine.

Something similar can be used in the pendulum swing. The cue stick is the piston. The rod and connecting joints are akin to the shoulder, wrist and fingers.

I usually smile when I watch Alex Pagulayan or Francisco Bustamante play as their strokes make me think of a car engine.:grin:

Joe,

I won't go into it but that analogy is not directly corrolative & the one that I would offer up does not really work either because the force is supplied from the other end. It is the explosion in the cylinder that forces the piston contained in that cylinder in a straight line. The connection at the gundgeon wrist to the rod & the rod's connection to the cam that resullts in that straight line movement being turned into the rotary movement of the cam shaft.

I would say that Alex & Busty are like Ferrari's & Lambourgini's. They are high performance machines that without a computer &/or a very good & experience driver to keep all of that moving 'power' under control they would either be all over the road or in the shop for repairs all of the time.

However I believe that the human mind & body is fully capable of utililizing & putting to good use more than just one or two moving parts.

Best Regards.