Pivot or Parallel to apply english?

jeffj2h

jeffj2h

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When aiming a shot with english, should I pivot the cue stick or shift the cue stick parallel to the line of aim?

I have been pivoting for years but a professional recommended shifting parallel. I believe I've heard other pros say pivot (one reason could be deflection reduction if you are pivoting at the actual pivot point of the cue stick).

Do some pros pivot and some pros shift parallel?
 
Both ways work. It's personal preference. There is no significant difference in deflection/squirt whether you pivot or parallel shift. It's all about judging how much will occur, based on where you strike the CB and how hard you shoot (and how much you have to adjust your aim).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
I agree with Scott that both ways work. Personally I tend to go parallel if I'm closer to center, and more pivot if I start to get closer to the outside. Seems to work for me.
Steve
 
My own personal opinion is that adding another dimension or variable to your stroke is asking for issues, you already mentioned in another thread you had a problem with unintended english, there in may lie your problem.
If you spend thousands of hours trying to perfect a straight stroke why would you want to totally change your alignment by moving your back arm?
Parallel, much more precise, consistent and accurate.
 
trying to hit a "contact point" you had better move parallel

jeffj2h said:
When aiming a shot with english, should I pivot the cue stick or shift the cue stick parallel to the line of aim?

I have been pivoting for years but a professional recommended shifting parallel. I believe I've heard other pros say pivot (one reason could be deflection reduction if you are pivoting at the actual pivot point of the cue stick).

Do some pros pivot and some pros shift parallel?
Click to expand...

If you''re trying to hit a "contact point" you had better move parallel (or you'll over cut on outside english and under cut on inside english), if you do as I do and align to center or edge and create angles then it's done with the pivot. My new Banking T.I.P.S. will show in detail how the pivot creates angles.
 
nobcitypool said:
RandyG, what situations cause you to differ your approach and why? Thanks.
Click to expand...

For me personally:

I use back-hand-English for bottom spin shots and parallel for top spin shots. It is just easier for me to do so.

randyg
 
jeffj2h said:
When aiming a shot with english, should I pivot the cue stick or shift the cue stick parallel to the line of aim?

I have been pivoting for years but a professional recommended shifting parallel. I believe I've heard other pros say pivot (one reason could be deflection reduction if you are pivoting at the actual pivot point of the cue stick).

Do some pros pivot and some pros shift parallel?
Click to expand...
For me "parallel" means to line your cue stick up through the center of the cue ball and pointed at the center of the ghost ball and then move the whole stick parallel to itself for as much side spin as you want. This requires the front hand and the back hand to move equally to the side or you (obviously and by definition) do not move to a parallel line.

Parallel almost never works, where "works" means puts the object ball in the center of the pocket. Most people will make subconscious adjustments when they think they are using "parallel english" and actually making the ball.

For me, pivot (also known as "aim-and-pivot" or "backhand english") is where you aim as above but then move only your backhand while pivoting the stick around your bridge. It may work for a particular shot, but if you slow down or speed up your stroke, the shot will miss. Or at least it will not go to the center of the pocket.

All of this is pretty easy to demonstrate.

Are the above definitions the ones you were using?
 
Your feed back is going to be unreliable unless ....................................

Slasher said:
My own personal opinion is that adding another dimension or variable to your stroke is asking for issues, you already mentioned in another thread you had a problem with unintended english, there in may lie your problem.
If you spend thousands of hours trying to perfect a straight stroke why would you want to totally change your alignment by moving your back arm?
Parallel, much more precise, consistent and accurate.
Click to expand...

I agree, until you get your stoke more precise it's not the right issue to address. Your feed back is going to be unreliable unless you know you're hitting the cue ball where you're addressing it.
 
Bob Jewett said:
For me "parallel" means to line your cue stick up through the center of the cue ball and pointed at the center of the ghost ball and then move the whole stick parallel to itself for as much side spin as you want. This requires the front hand and the back hand to move equally to the side or you (obviously and by definition) do not move to a parallel line.
Click to expand...

Bob, this made a light go off. When doing a parallel adjust, I had not been also shifting my grip hand in the same direction. The result was that the cue still looked pivoted and I found myself struggling to make corrections.

I just tried 100 shots parallel shifting as you described and the difference is night and day. It feels right instead of feeling that something is off and I need to adjust. I'm going to keep practicing this.

Thanks,
Jeff
 
jeffj2h said:
Bob, this made a light go off. When doing a parallel adjust, I had not been also shifting my grip hand in the same direction. The result was that the cue still looked pivoted and I found myself struggling to make corrections.

I just tried 100 shots parallel shifting as you described and the difference is night and day. It feels right instead of feeling that something is off and I need to adjust. I'm going to keep practicing this.

Thanks,
Jeff
Click to expand...

Jeff

When you start to "push up", set (offset) your bridge to the intended English.

randyg
 
randyg said:
Jeff
When you start to "push up", set (offset) your bridge to the intended English.
randyg
Click to expand...

Thanks Randy. Per your previous excellent advice on establishing a consistent pre-shot routine, I had decided to push my bridge to the CB, then parallel shift, then two practice strokes. I'll try your suggestion.
 
You will see most of the Champion players make any upper body/cue angle changes by...

jeffj2h said:
When aiming a shot with english, should I pivot the cue stick or shift the cue stick parallel to the line of aim?

I have been pivoting for years but a professional recommended shifting parallel. I believe I've heard other pros say pivot (one reason could be deflection reduction if you are pivoting at the actual pivot point of the cue stick).

Do some pros pivot and some pros shift parallel?
Click to expand...

I will do the pivot or the shift, and, I'd suggest making the motion with the back hand initiated by the balance/weight shift of your FEET.

I know this isn't commonly advised, however, I'm personally very strict about not changing my upper body angles UNLESS they coincide with my "foundation" (lower body/feet) or the cue can get slightly out of it's Slot/Groove.

You will see most of the Champion players make any upper body/cue angle (to engage a pivot or shift) changes by initiating them with their lower body (feet/legs) when you watch closely. I would discourage simply moving the Pool Cue alone to change your cue ball targeting, especially if you're competing or trying to play your absolute best.

'The Game is the Teacher' .com
 
The mention above about adding complexities to your stroke is extremely valuable.

There is an amazing amount of Cue Ball control you can get just by staying on the vertical center line.

Now given that, there are circumstances when side spin on the CB gets amazing results.

The primary two conditions for using side spin are: 1) the OB is close (within a D is ideal) to the pocket, and/or 2) there is less than 4 D's between the CB and OB. Within these conditions, you can learn how to be fairly consistent with applied side spin.

BTW, there is a necessary "trick" with the Parallel approach. Do NOT shift the back hand, only the bridge hand. When you stroke, the back hand strokes straight at the CB (as if the bridge hand did not shift).
 
I alway aim center cue ball but when I am center cue ball but at the same time I am lining the outside of edge of the shaft or tip to the contact point or fractional aiming what I call it. if I go right I use the right side of shaft to point if I am going left I use the left side of shaft to point. I got 2 aiming systems and I am still aiming center cue ball. I feel center cue ball give me 90% knowing it going to hit the ball regardless. I pivot only on cut shot but that is the only time I don't start at center cue ball but still using the shaft right or left then once I got it dial in to hit the ball I pivot to center cue ball and shoot it. I am now practicing CJ Wiley TOI( Touch of inside) and it kind of odd to me but it work. Once I stay with it hopefully and eventually it come natural to me.
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, please clarify.

allanpsand said:
The mention above about adding complexities to your stroke is extremely valuable.

There is an amazing amount of Cue Ball control you can get just by staying on the vertical center line.

Now given that, there are circumstances when side spin on the CB gets amazing results.

The primary two conditions for using side spin are: 1) the OB is close (within a D is ideal) to the pocket, and/or 2) there is less than 4 D's between the CB and OB. Within these conditions, you can learn how to be fairly consistent with applied side spin.

BTW, there is a necessary "trick" with the Parallel approach. Do NOT shift the back hand, only the bridge hand. When you stroke, the back hand strokes straight at the CB (as if the bridge hand did not shift).
Click to expand...


So you're saying to make a "parallel shift" you don't move your back hand? Could you explain how you can still move the cue parallel if only the front of the cue is shifting over? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, please clarify.
 
Scott Lee said:
Both ways work. It's personal preference. There is no significant difference in deflection/squirt whether you pivot or parallel shift. It's all about judging how much will occur, based on where you strike the CB and how hard you shoot (and how much you have to adjust your aim).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I didn't know that 'deflection/squirt' changed based on how hard you shoot. Could you explain?
 
Tennesseejoe...Try this...Put the CB on the spot. Put an OB on the middle diamond at the other end of the table. Aim with extreme sidespin (three tips out at 3 or 9 o'clock). Aim straight at the OB. Stroke softly and see how much the CB moves off line (very little). Now do the same thing the same way, but shoot hard. The CB will squirt a full ball or more off the center line.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Tennesseejoe said:
I didn't know that 'deflection/squirt' changed based on how hard you shoot. Could you explain?
Click to expand...
 
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