Getting into CNC

C

carguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've seen a few threads in the last few years where somebody asks about these ultra cheap CNC's that are all over ebay. All the very experienced cuemakers who commented, who's opinions I respect enormously, seem to say "forget it, they're just not accurate enough for what we do". The perspective of decades of experience in hard to argue with (he says with envy).

Here's what I'm curious about: Would one of these inexpensive machines that they have available now be, if nothing else, an inexpensive learning tool? I mean, they have a 4 axis machine for like $600.

It seems like a cheap way to learn some cad, learn something of the machine code, get a handle on the actual mechanical part of the task so I can have an idea of what constitutes a reasonable tool path etc, etc. At this point I don't yet know what "good enough to be useful" is.
I can run machine tools but have no experience with machine inlay work or other fine-bit work on wood.

The software would be that which I could use in the future on a more capable machine, and I'll bet the inexpensive machine would sell very quickly on ebay for a cheap price when I was done with it.
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I'd just go ahead and take the plunge for a "good" machine right now, but I suspect that very inexpensive high quality machines from China that will do any cue related task are just around the corner, and I think the quality and price will be in line with, for example, these VFD/spindle combos that are knocking everything else out of the box right now.

My other concern is that if I tie up a lot of money in a machine up front, at my glacial rate of progress it'll be obsolete by the time I get a handle on the whole process.

Any opinions?

Robin Snyder
 
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CNC is just another way of making something. But cnc can do things that manual machines either can not or if it can be done manually will do it more accurately and more consistently.
It is always the setup time with CNC, that is the programing and the setting of the machine.
For very simple things , quite often for a 1 off part, it will be made quicker manually.
But if you have the opportunity to get a cheap machine to learn on,then go for it.
Being you first time with this new tech there is bound to be some teething problems and maybe the odd minor crash.
There will be little things that you can make for it cue related like billet stock or what ever.The important part is the learning.
Enjoy the journey my friend.
Neil
PS when set up and running, cnc then allows you to do other things with your time.
 
To be honest, I never considered a Chinese CNC. I bought a CueMonster knowing that cuemakers have been using them for years and that there was support in this country- not just from Unique but also from other users.
In my opinion, I don't think that cheap VFD's are an indicator that the Chinese will mass-produce cnc components and machines that will be accurate enough for cuemaking. When reading about the VFD's, there are a lot of threads about the poor quality of construction- something that directly relates cnc machining accuracy.
That said, it is easier to take a $600 swing than a $6000-$10,000 swing. I see your hesitation.
 
I've hand cut inlays before but not on cues. Cutting pockets on that round surface is hard and time consuming. And the machine is more accurate without a doubt.

What appeals to me about a CNC machine is it seems like a real Swiss Army knife of a tool.

I have a couple things I want to try on cues besides inlays that I would be hard pressed to do by hand. Precise curves are beyond my capabilities but a CNC could do what I have in mind easily.

Again, the reason I'm interested in getting one of these particular machines is to learn the software without burying myself in a machine until I explore a bit.

Robin Snyder
 
ELBeau said:
To be honest, I never considered a Chinese CNC. I bought a CueMonster knowing that cuemakers have been using them for years and that there was support in this country- not just from Unique but also from other users.
In my opinion, I don't think that cheap VFD's are an indicator that the Chinese will mass-produce cnc components and machines that will be accurate enough for cuemaking. When reading about the VFD's, there are a lot of threads about the poor quality of construction- something that directly relates cnc machining accuracy.
That said, it is easier to take a $600 swing than a $6000-$10,000 swing. I see your hesitation.
Click to expand...

A CueMonster is one of the machines I've had my eye on, perhaps my top pick. I considered buying the one that was for sale on here recently. It is indeed a proven unit and in my experience Unique Products simply does not know how to make a bad product. And they are purpose-built for making pool cues. But suppose I want to make something else?

Proven, purpose-built units are great and great support is great, and I have no problem asking for help when I need it, but I've found that I learn quite a lot just jumping in the deep end and figuring things out. Lots of people used to do that.(All the old hands now roll eyes heavenward).

As far as the quality of Chinese manufactured goods, why would the Chinese NOT be capable of making a high quality CNC? They are getting better and better.

But my main point was that I'm looking for an inexpensive platform to learn the ropes on. For me it's a lot like Abraham Lincoln, given 8 hours to chop down a tree, would spend 6 hours sharpening his ax.
I want my ax nice and sharp before I approach the tree.

Edit-
Beau- I should say here that I really appreciate your input and perspective on this. Thanks for posting.
Neil, too.
Robin Snyder
 
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Robin

The chinese are more than capable of making good cnc machines. The trouble is that the good ones won't be cheap. What you see on Ebay is more of something that looks good than really is good.

I understand your logic about getting started. My first machine I built out of scrap parts for not much money. I learned a lot along the way, and built another. You do learn from messing around with this stuff.

Here's the tough part about cnc. It's support. The software you will most likely use to run the machine is Mach3. You can go to their website and download a trial version of their software for free. Do it, and get it setup on a PC. I strongly recommend downloading all the installation guides and user guides they offer. I remember the Mach2 manual being my bible for many years on not only how to operate the software but also how the motor controls were setup and worked, how the machines were built and setup, all kinds of things. Watch the tutorials they offer. Some will be over your head, so then go back to the user manuals and read. Play around with your software on your PC and figure out what they are talking about and go back and watch them again. You will gain a tremendous amount in knowledge this way. But it does take time.

The next thing is CAD. How do you plan to draw your designs? How do you plan to get them into G Code, which is the machine commands that your machine will understand? Most here use BobCad. It works pretty well, but can be buggy. The sales guys will also hound you to death! They still call me occasionally.


I guess what I'm saying is that you don't have to start with a machine. Sure, you can get a small cheap system and learn the software along with it, but you'll also most likely learn the wrong types of machine controls. Then you'll just have to relearn Mach3 later.

I've never owned one, but there's a lot of good things about buying from Unique products. They will lead you through many of the hard to figure out things without you really even knowing, and they will have you doing productive things pretty quickly. If, at a later time you want something bigger, you may want to keep the cue monster and have 2 machines. Or, you can always sell the cue monster for pretty good money.

So, look around and play with the software, or get something with support. Those are my recommendations.
 
I am barely on the other side of the looking glass than you. I have been playing with CNC for a few months now and was lucky to have a friend help me a lot. If I was starting out now, without any local support, I would start with one of Todd's 2 axis taper machines. What you learn on it will carry over to 4 axis machines later. The steppers and controllers are the same I am using and can be transferred to an inlay machine later.

Should you decide to go with a cheaper machine. I think you will spend the next few month chasing your tail and wishing you had spent a little more.

Larry
 
This is exactly the type of information I was looking for. It sounds like I can skip the cheap Chinese machine step.

Todd's taper machine looks great; I liked it from the start.

It sounds like buying a PC is step one (I'm a Mac guy), then downloading some software and get to work.

Thank you everyone for the information.

Robin Snyder
 
Two big factors are the speed and rigidity of your cutting tool and than of the drivers.

I won't speak of anyone else than myself, I used some black epoxy and ebony in the late 1990's.

Would I have rather learned starting at $600.00 rather than the $17,000.00 plus I paid?

You did not leave a link so I can't see what you are writing of. I helped rebuild my $17,000.00 machine to a very workable machine, no black glue but never hit the speed for using under a .015 bit.
 
I think your idea is solid assuming your pretty handy and somewhat mechanically inclined. I'm guessing you are after seeing some of your recent posts. If you decide to buy one of the ebay mills then i'll bet your learning experience will start as soon as you open the crate and realize that its out of tram as much as .200 in 12"s. Once you fix it and replace most all the parts you will probably start to generate your own opinions of how it should have been done and what components should have been used. You can then use the mill to build a real machine with quality components for a fraction of the cost because at that point you will be quite educated.
 
LGSM3 said:
I think your idea is solid assuming your pretty handy and somewhat mechanically inclined. I'm guessing you are after seeing some of your recent posts. If you decide to buy one of the ebay mills then i'll bet your learning experience will start as soon as you open the crate and realize that its out of tram as much as .200 in 12"s. Once you fix it and replace most all the parts you will probably start to generate your own opinions of how it should have been done and what components should have been used. You can then use the mill to build a real machine with quality components for a fraction of the cost because at that point you will be quite educated.
Click to expand...

An approach something like that was my first inclination; I'm a do it yourself kind of guy and generally hate to buy what I can make but right now I have a tiny shop not suitably equipped for fabrication. If I had room I'd buy a mill and take a stab at building one but for now it is what it is.
I get your point about the structural integrity of the machine. If it's not rigid and square, it'll never work correctly.

I think I've been suitably discouraged from buying a machine if that type for the moment.
I think what I'll do is get a PC and download some software and comence to play.
Thank you everyone for your opinions. Much appreciated.

Robin Snyder
 
Royce gives sage advise. Get the computer and some software and study, study, study.
I've run three different controllers, AH-HA, Techno-Isel, and Haas. What I learned in the early controllers really helped me transition to the more complex feature rich controllers.
Bobcad has really improved from it's early version. V25 has some serious features and a decent simulator. That's a good way to get to understand G code. You don't need a machine to run G-code, just a simulator. No broken metal when you crash the simulator.
Google is actually a pretty good source of info. There are lots of articles on machine basics and design. When you start understanding what they are talking about and can start to tell the B.S, from the facts, your ready to start considering a machine. Happy Hunting.
 
Steve-
Thanks for weighing in on this. I was hoping you would...you're neck deep in this stuff too.
That's exactly what I will do: get a PC with a suitable operating system, download the software and have at. The simulator sounds great. I'll report in when I've made som progress.

Robin Snyder
 
Robin,
You have received a LOT of great input here and the good news is that you are LISTENING - some don't as we all know.
I'm not one normally to argue with Conetip, but I'm not sure what a "minor" crash would be:confused: As they say, there are two kinds of motorcycle riders - those who have gone down and those whose turn has not yet come up!!:D Similar for CNC operators.
Steve mentioned a piece that has not been brought up and that's the CAM software that will be needed for calculating tool paths for inlays. There was a great deal on BobCadv24 here until recently, but I think it is gone.
And then Jim (MC2) has not chimed in yet, and he is another wealth of knowledge.
For me, I have a CNC taper attachment that I built onto my Taig-based lathe and it has taught me a lot. Because it is only 2-dimensional I can write the G-code myself and then once I get a taper that I like, it is only a couple of clicks to recall it and load it into Mach3. Inlays/3D are the next project, but I'll have to build or buy a different machine for that, and find room in the shop, and, and and.....:)
But it is fun and educational - and that's a big plus:thumbup:
Good luck and let me know if there's anything I can do to help.
Gary
 
Gary-

Well fortunately I have my motorcycle crashes out of the way decades ago so I'm good to go on that one.

If I only have two big CNC crashes I'll be a pretty happy (and lucky) guy.

A CNC taper machine would be nice but I only use two shaft tapers: a stiff one and one a little less so so I'm in pretty good shape there. My Taper Shaper stays busy.

I want to try some construction techniques that I can't really do without some help from a machine. I have some ideas.....

I keep going back to some of Jake's cues muttering to myself "I wonder how he did that?"

Thanks for the input.

Robin Snyder
 
carguy said:
Gary-



I keep going back to some of Jake's cues muttering to myself "I wonder how he did that?"

Robin Snyder
Click to expand...

Good luck with that! I get to see some previews. Not sure which is harder. Seeing where he is going or seeing where he has been!

Larry
 
GBCues said:
Robin,

I'm not sure what a "minor" crash would be:confused: As they say, there are two kinds of motorcycle riders - those who have gone down and those whose turn has not yet come up!!:D Similar for CNC operators.

Gary
Click to expand...

A minor crash is when the cutter path is not that of the intended path for what ever the reason and tool bit/turning insert/milling cutter/ gouges or snaps off.

A major crash is when the body of the holder or the spindle face collides with another part of the machine or work piece and has an effect on the machines alignment somewhere.

I have seen where a machine tool had the spindle crashed into the workpiece. Cause of crash was the geometry offset was incorrectly set on Z height for Z0. Machine info had the Z height incorrectly entered,an error of 100 mm(Transposed numbers can be difficult to see). The result of the crash corrected the misalignment of the spindle to the table.
My conclusion was that since it was a used machine, it must have been crashed previously and put out of alignment. The previous owners denied it of course.
Another reason to always have Z0 at the highest point on the job.In the case of a mill or the end face when turning. Not always possible, and in the cases where it is not, extra care is definitely needed.
 
carguy said:
Gary-

Well fortunately I have my motorcycle crashes out of the way decades ago so I'm good to go on that one.

If I only have two big CNC crashes I'll be a pretty happy (and lucky) guy.

A CNC taper machine would be nice but I only use two shaft tapers: a stiff one and one a little less so so I'm in pretty good shape there. My Taper Shaper stays busy.

I want to try some construction techniques that I can't really do without some help from a machine. I have some ideas.....

I keep going back to some of Jake's cues muttering to myself "I wonder how he did that?"

Thanks for the input.

Robin Snyder
Click to expand...
Robin,

Fly in and I will show you around Unique CNC Machine in my shop. Flight is cheaper than some of your other options.

Jim
 
billiardbum said:
Robin,

Fly in and I will show you around Unique CNC Machine in my shop. Flight is cheaper than some of your other options.

Jim
Click to expand...

You're probably right. If I had other business back east I'd probably do it.

I may well end up with a CueMonster for all the good reasons others have pointed out.

I don't know why I avoid the path of least resistance so much. Probably because I learn so much from all the bumps in the not-so-smooth road. It's a life long habit.
After I'm sufficiently bruised and battered from the journey you may see me yet.

Robin Snyder
 
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