APA 3-Way Tie-breaker FIASCO

[CreeDo]

So lemme just clear it up in my head.

The procedure for a 2 way tie is: Look at all the matches the tied teams ever played.
Add up all the points A scored vs. B
Add up all the points B scored vs. A
Whichever team has more points, wins the tiebreaker.
If the points add up to the same number, whoever won their last match wins the tiebreaker.

So a three way tie is handled by doing this procedure between 2 of the tied teams.
They aren't randomly picked but they might as well be...
it's the 2 teams that faced each other earliest in the season.
This determines a winner between 2 of the teams.
Then they repeat the procedure with the winner, and the 3rd team.

I can sort of see their reasoning but I also don't agree with it.

On paper, B is the best team.
But when C played against B, C managed to fight them to a tie.
So they're considered equals. The 'winner' is decided basically by a coin flip.

So of these 2 powerhouse teams, C comes out on top.
The one time C ever matches up with A, the winner was A.
So A is chosen as the "best" team.

This is kind of a common pool fallacy. Bob beats Timmy. Timmy beats Joe.
So on paper, Bob beats Joe and Bob is the best player.
But in practice, Bob might lose to Joe and maybe he doesn't beat Timmy
if you lengthen the race.

The same false reasoning was applied to this tie. C beats B. A beats C. So A is the best.
Even if they really aren't. I agree looking at overall win/loss (like a round robin) would be a
more fair way to break the tie.

An even better way would be to just let the teams match up on a pool table
instead of on paper.

 

[Black-Balled]

Sometimes people have to die, Vyc.

Your L.O. is lucky he is a good guy.

Haha, sorry to hear it. I can imagine how frustrating it is!

 

[Vyc]

Sometimes people have to die, Vyc.

Your L.O. is lucky he is a good guy.

Haha, sorry to hear it. I can imagine how frustrating it is!

LOL!

(10 char min on replies? What the...!?!)

 

[Vyc]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly..

Apart from the losses to B, team A out-performed both for the rest of the season.

Stats and numbers are a wonderous thing..

Not quite.

TeamA lost to Team B 2x.

TeamA beat Team C 1x.

TeamB and TeamC tied all the way around.

Does this make TeamA better than TeamB?

 

[Banks]

Not quite.

TeamA lost to Team B 2x.

TeamA beat Team C 1x.

TeamB and TeamC tied all the way around.

Does this make TeamA better than TeamB?

Very much quite.

A got few points playing B.

B got many points playing A.

By deductive reasoning, outside of those two matches, A must've outscored B for the rest of the season.

It's like Fun With Numbers.. without the fun.

I'm a California/Los Angeles/Anaheim Angels fan. Though, "In nearly every national broadcast the announcers mention that the Angels were the only MLB team with a winning record against the Yanks with Joe Torre at the helm.", that by no means meant that they were the better team in general. The same could be said in this case.

 

[Vyc]

So lemme just clear it up in my head.

The procedure for a 2 way tie is: Look at all the matches the tied teams ever played.
Add up all the points A scored vs. B
Add up all the points B scored vs. A
Whichever team has more points, wins the tiebreaker.
If the points add up to the same number, whoever won their last match wins the tiebreaker.

So a three way tie is handled by doing this procedure between 2 of the tied teams.
They aren't randomly picked but they might as well be...
it's the 2 teams that faced each other earliest in the season.
This determines a winner between 2 of the teams.
Then they repeat the procedure with the winner, and the 3rd team.

I can sort of see their reasoning but I also don't agree with it.

On paper, B is the best team.
But when C played against B, C managed to fight them to a tie.
So they're considered equals. The 'winner' is decided basically by a coin flip.

So of these 2 powerhouse teams, C comes out on top.
The one time C ever matches up with A, the winner was A.
So A is chosen as the "best" team.

This is kind of a common pool fallacy. Bob beats Timmy. Timmy beats Joe.
So on paper, Bob beats Joe and Bob is the best player.
But in practice, Bob might lose to Joe and maybe he doesn't beat Timmy
if you lengthen the race.

You got it Creedo!

The same false reasoning was applied to this tie. C beats B. A beats C. So A is the best.
Even if they really aren't. I agree looking at overall win/loss (like a round robin) would be a
more fair way to break the tie.

This is the case here. Therefore, one needs to investigate further to find another solution to select a winner. Compare win/loss records, total points scored, etc., between the 3 teams to make it fair.

An even better way would be to just let the teams match up on a pool table
instead of on paper.

The APA might go for this...they'd get to collect more money.

 

[APA Operator]

I believe TeamB got screwed here because they beat TeamA 2-0 during the regular season.

I doubt that was TeamB's actual record against TeamA. Unless they won each night with a score of 1-0.

Consider the following scenario. Team X and Team Y play each other three times during the session. The first time Team X wins 10-9. The second time Team Y wins 18-2. The third time Team X wins, again 10-9. The two teams end up tied in the standings. Who wins the head-to-head tiebreaker?

The answer is "It depends on how the standings are tracked." If standings are tracked by "who won the night", then Team X wins the tiebreaker with a 2-1 record in head-to-head matchups. If the standings are tracked by "points", then Team Y wins the tiebreaker with a 36-22 record in head-to-head matchups.

Either way is fair, as long as the head-to-head tiebreaker uses the same "unit of measure" as the standings.

Out of the 3 teams that tied, the final result is:
1. The team with the worst record won the tie breaker.
2. The team with best record lost the tie breaker.

We don't know that for sure here, because you didn't give the scores of the matches between TeamA and their opponents. But even if TeamA still comes out worst or TeamB still comes out best in that head-to-head points comparison, one could make a case that such a comparison is invalid if the teams didn't play each other the same number of times. If TeamA and TeamC had played a second time, who's to say that TeamA wouldn't have blown out TeamC and won the points comparison?

To me, the main fiasco in this rule is the 1st determining factor of “which teams involved met first during the season.” This is what allowed the team with the best record to lose the tie breaker. It allowed the team with the worst record to win the “second/final” tie breaker.

Is this fair?

Not to me.

I think it's as fair as any other alternative. When you document a tiebreaking procedure, it has to be one that ultimately results in a single winner. Because any data you choose can ultimately fail to break the tie, you must have some element that is arbitrary. Even "playing it off" in a three-way tie has it's arbitrary element (which two teams play first?).

I like the idea of a head-to-head record comparison first, but only if the teams all played each other the same number of times. If that fails, I think the current procedure is as fair as any other.

 

[Railbird Hero]

Im trying to figure out how you have teams getting a 12-9 or vice versa.
Our 3 point scoring system makes it where the max we can get a week is 15 if we swept all 5 matches. I can see how a 10-5 would happen if all matches went Hill-Hill, or a 10-0 if you won all 5 matches but they won at least one game in each match.
In San Diego its a 3-0 is you sweep. Regardless of skill level matchup.
If your opponent wins one game but doesn't reach the Hill you win 2-0, and lastly if you/they get to the hill its scored 2-1.

Our nine ball is still using the 12-8 to 20-0 in each individual match, and the total points should add up to 100 barring any forfeits.

I play and captain a team, I agree with you on some of the rules, and Im sorry to hear your team was sort of screwed out of it this time round. I know how frustrating that can be first hand.
Best of luck next session my friend.
Have a steady hand and shoot a straight stick..

 

[Vyc]

Im trying to figure out how you have teams getting a 12-9 or vice versa.
Our 3 point scoring system makes it where the max we can get a week is 15 if we swept all 5 matches. I can see how a 10-5 would happen if all matches went Hill-Hill, or a 10-0 if you won all 5 matches but they won at least one game in each match.
In San Diego its a 3-0 is you sweep. Regardless of skill level matchup.
If your opponent wins one game but doesn't reach the Hill you win 2-0, and lastly if you/they get to the hill its scored 2-1.

Our nine ball is still using the 12-8 to 20-0 in each individual match, and the total points should add up to 100 barring any forfeits.

I play and captain a team, I agree with you on some of the rules, and Im sorry to hear your team was sort of screwed out of it this time round. I know how frustrating that can be first hand.
Best of luck next session my friend.
Have a steady hand and shoot a straight stick..

In our league, teams are given an extra 3 bonus points per week if score sheets are completed neatly, pay on time, etc...

I've had disappointments with the APA before, but they were, for the most part, logical...this one is not.

 

[trob]

In our league, teams are given an extra 3 bonus points per week if score sheets are completed neatly, pay on time, etc...

I've had disappointments with the APA before, but they were, for the most part, logical...this one is not.

hahahahahaha The stupidity of apa.. We out scored you and played you on the table but you had neater score sheets this year so you win first place!!!! lol

 

[APA Operator]

hahahahahaha The stupidity of apa.. We out scored you and played you on the table but you had neater score sheets this year so you win first place!!!! lol

Hmmm, there's not a whole lot of difference between that and forfeiting games in a national tournament because you're wearing a t-shirt, is there?

To use golf as a comparison, improper score keeping gets you disqualified from a tournament. You don't lose first place, you go home.

Proper scorekeeping is pretty important in a handicapped league. Neatness counts to the degree that the sheet is complete and readable, as that part can affect the data that goes into the system. It's not that the neatest score sheet gets bonus points, the points are awarded to every team whose sheet is neat enough.

Everyone needs to do their part, but keeping proper score seems to be beneath some people. The best incentive (for some, the ONLY incentive) to get those people to pay attention to the score sheet is to reward them in the standings.

Once everyone is paying attention, the bonus points have no impact because everyone gets them. Then your quip becomes "We lost first place last year because we didn't pay enough attention to proper score keeping, so now we make sure we do it right."

If your team loses first place because you ignored a documented league policy, who's the stupid one?

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Anyone can play, anyone can win

Dear students of the APA,

Please remember the mantra and recite it as you drift off to sleep. Anyone can win.

That is why a tie for 5th place is even relevant, so they can pack all of the mediocre teams into the Tri-cup to give them another chance at winning.

Sorry to hate, I'm sure you're in a tough league, etc.

Although I think playing in a HLT is good preparation for the city tournament, I see no need to have 3 Tri-cups per year and throw in mediocre teams and punish the week to week grinders. Most people can't give up 4 weekends a year to qualify for Vegas. Good teams get weakened because of conflicting work schedules as well.

Yes this was a hi-jack post, but I believe it to be honest.

I'm glad we finished in first place this session, ouch.

 

[JC]

Handicapped play is something else. It's not a sport. It's not a pastime. It's not a competition. It's not a job. So what the hell is it?

A mineral?

Well that's as close a guess as "pool".

JC

 

[lorider]

Handicapped play is something else. It's not a sport. It's not a pastime. It's not a competition. It's not a job. So what the hell is it?

A mineral?

Well that's as close a guess as "pool".

JC

handicapping is not real pool ?

well i guess all those " serious pool players " oughta quit giving games on the wire , a ball or 2 , all the breaks, and all that other weight they give up to get a match up.

every body in the world just needs to play straight up even all the time because according to the above poster ya'll aint been playing " real " pool.

 

[trob]

man you apa nut huggers can put it anyway you want it so you feel better playing by these silly rules but you shouldn't get a point added to your score because you paid on time or you wrote neat. making your score card neat and giving yourself an extra stroke and handing in an incorrect score card are different things. lol Name me another game or sport that gives you extra credit for having good hand writing.

Tiger woods lost today by a stroke but because he kept a beautiful score card he got 3 bonus strokes takin off his score so he wins! congratulations Tiger. hahaha

The dallas cowboys lost the game by 6 but fortunately they used tide and the colors of there uniforms were much brighter then the Eagles so they got 7 bonus points and win the game!

Sound silly yet? It should...no points should be given to you for anything but making balls go into pockets.

Hmmm, there's not a whole lot of difference between that and forfeiting games in a national tournament because you're wearing a t-shirt, is there?

To use golf as a comparison, improper score keeping gets you disqualified from a tournament. You don't lose first place, you go home.

Proper scorekeeping is pretty important in a handicapped league. Neatness counts to the degree that the sheet is complete and readable, as that part can affect the data that goes into the system. It's not that the neatest score sheet gets bonus points, the points are awarded to every team whose sheet is neat enough.

Everyone needs to do their part, but keeping proper score seems to be beneath some people. The best incentive (for some, the ONLY incentive) to get those people to pay attention to the score sheet is to reward them in the standings.

Once everyone is paying attention, the bonus points have no impact because everyone gets them. Then your quip becomes "We lost first place last year because we didn't pay enough attention to proper score keeping, so now we make sure we do it right."

If your team loses first place because you ignored a documented league policy, who's the stupid one?

 

[justadub]

As APAOperator points out, the reality of it is that everyone gets the points, its the teams that don't give a $hit enough to get the paperwork in on time that lose points.

I don't get more points than you. If you can't send it in on time, you get penalized.

Should it come to that, no. But should the LO have to delay generating accurate results, standings, potential handicap adjustments, or schedules because people aren't considerate enuf to get the paperwork in, legibly enuf to read, with the proper payment?

It's a shame, but if they don't do it that way, there is no incentive for those who don't care to actually do it.

Seems easy enuf to me. I don't lose points for my team.

 

[lorider]

man you apa nut huggers can put it anyway you want it so you feel better playing by these silly rules but you shouldn't get a point added to your score because you paid on time or you wrote neat. making your score card neat and giving yourself an extra stroke and handing in an incorrect score card are different things. lol Name me another game or sport that gives you extra credit for having good hand writing.

Tiger woods lost today by a stroke but because he kept a beautiful score card he got 3 bonus strokes takin off his score so he wins! congratulations Tiger. hahaha

The dallas cowboys lost the game by 6 but fortunately they used tide and the colors of there uniforms were much brighter then the Eagles so they got 7 bonus points and win the game!

Sound silly yet? It should...no points should be given to you for anything but making balls go into pockets.

the bonus points format is not a rule. it is an incentive based program.

too many people have a whats in it for me attitude. well bonus points are whats in it for you to do what you should be doing correctly in the 1st place.

if you dont want to bother taking the time to pay your fees on time, filling the score sheet out correctly, ensuring the lo can make sense of what you marked on the scoresheet, then dont . you just will not get points for doing it correctly.

simple enoughh , right ?

 

[CreeDo]

Tiger woods lost today by a stroke but because he kept a beautiful score card he got 3 bonus strokes takin off his score so he wins! congratulations Tiger. hahaha

No but if Tiger FAILS to keep a correct score card he can lose strokes, or lose the match.
If his number is higher than the reality he eats those extra strokes he marked.
If it's lower he's instantly disqualified.

The scorecard rule is there to prevent cheating and sloppiness and it works
in golf and the APA both.

It's all a matter of perspective. It's not really a prize for accurate scorekeeping... everyone
gets it automatically unless they're total f*ckups. It's a penalty for inaccurate scorekeeping.
Sort of like how some restaurants give you a "discount" for paying with cash,
when really it's a penalty for paying with a credit card.

 

[APA LO]

Without the bonus points, teams can just not send in their score sheets at all, I suppose.

Web sites publish standings, among other things, and if the score sheets aren't there in a timely manner, the standings won't be accurate. It might seem really silly to award points for printing legibly and turning sheets in on time, but these points help keep administration of the league flowing smoothly for everyone in the league.

As to the tie breaker, there probably isn't a completely fair way to handle 3 way ties where Team A beat Team B, Team B beat Team C, and team C beat Team A and all ended the season with the same amount of points. And we are only talking about 3 way ties. I've had to break a 5 way tie before. The process APA chose seems to work well enough regardless of the amount of teams that tied.

An argument can almost always be made that someone got screwed regardless of how you calculate it. But, if we know the way the tie will be broken ahead of time, then it really isn't all that unfair unless you just want it to be. Go out there and beat every team so that you aren't at risk of losing a tiebreaker.

 

[APA Operator]

man you apa nut huggers can put it anyway you want it so you feel better playing by these silly rules but you shouldn't get a point added to your score because you paid on time or you wrote neat. making your score card neat and giving yourself an extra stroke and handing in an incorrect score card are different things. lol Name me another game or sport that gives you extra credit for having good hand writing.

Tiger woods lost today by a stroke but because he kept a beautiful score card he got 3 bonus strokes takin off his score so he wins! congratulations Tiger. hahaha

The dallas cowboys lost the game by 6 but fortunately they used tide and the colors of there uniforms were much brighter then the Eagles so they got 7 bonus points and win the game!

Sound silly yet? It should...no points should be given to you for anything but making balls go into pockets.

NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, PGA, all of them assess penalties for "neatness", penalties that can affect the outcome of games/matches/tournaments. Nearly every organization in sports does. Is it your contention that a penalty is ok but a bonus is not?