Don't worry, the way he describes it is totally dependent on the deflection characteristics of each individual cue.
Aiming with english, did you know...? (A little fun fact for you)
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Don't worry, the way he describes it is totally dependent on the deflection characteristics of each individual cue.
Unfortunately I'm Posting right after Neil. I hope he does not start a derail.
I'm sure that we all have seen a ball spinning in place & the spin is not causing the ball to move. However if the ball is spinning on an axis other than straight up & down the spin can & will move the ball as it interacts with the friction of the cloth.
Also there is always deflection or squirt for an off center hit & it is in a direction directly throught the center of the ball & opposite of the tip off center hit. In other words a 1:30 hit will squirt the CB in the 7:30 direction & it will put spin on the ball.
As One Pocket John stated the NET EFFECT of the shot is dependent on the 'speed' of the shot, or more specifically the speed to spin ratio. As Satori stated the NET effect can be a ball that 'moves' right when hitting with right english. The spin swerve is more than the CB squirt.
If you hit the CB at 3:00 or 9:00 with a very level cue the CB squirt net effect is 'maximized' as the spin on that axis has little to no interaction with the friction of the cloth & does not grab & swerve the ball, especially if hit at a high forward speed. I think this is more to what CJ is referring.
Naturally all of the above are just my opinions based on my experience & high school & college physics but that was many years ago & I might be mis-stating something.
Best to ALL,
Rick
I'm sure that we all have seen a ball spinning in place & the spin is not causing the ball to move. However if the ball is spinning on an axis other than straight up & down the spin can & will move the ball as it interacts with the friction of the cloth.
Also there is always deflection or squirt for an off center hit & it is in a direction directly throught the center of the ball & opposite of the tip off center hit. In other words a 1:30 hit will squirt the CB in the 7:30 direction & it will put spin on the ball.
As One Pocket John stated the NET EFFECT of the shot is dependent on the 'speed' of the shot, or more specifically the speed to spin ratio. As Satori stated the NET effect can be a ball that 'moves' right when hitting with right english. The spin swerve is more than the CB squirt.
If you hit the CB at 3:00 or 9:00 with a very level cue the CB squirt net effect is 'maximized' as the spin on that axis has little to no interaction with the friction of the cloth & does not grab & swerve the ball, especially if hit at a high forward speed. I think this is more to what CJ is referring.
Naturally all of the above are just my opinions based on my experience & high school & college physics but that was many years ago & I might be mis-stating something.
Best to ALL,
Rick
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Don't worry, the way he describes it is totally dependent on the deflection characteristics of each individual cue.
Which takes all of 10 seconds to figure out!
Best,
Mike
Which takes all of 10 seconds to figure out!
Best,
Mike
If you really believe that, and don't understand how my statement applies to CJ's statement, have fun with your game.
I think some of you need to read Satori's post carefully, because you are not describing what he is saying.
He is saying the cueball will deflect (squirt) and curve in the same direction.
In other words Right English squirt left and curve left.
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He is saying the cueball will deflect (squirt) and curve in the same direction.
In other words Right English squirt left and curve left.
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CJ,
As you know I am still a newlywed with TOI, But it comes up more often than one might think where you have to align to the 'wrong' side. If someone were watching & not know what was going on they might think it was Sorcery & we might get burned at the stake for heresy.
On another subject, until your TIPS instruction there were a few shots that CTE with TOI would be an over cut but 'I' did not feel that I can shoot them with CTC. So...I would go with CTE with just a touch of outside to squirt the CB in to take a bit of cut off of the shot. Now with the TIPS I have a guideline on just how much TOI to use with the CTC alignment.
Thanks for bringing ALL of the TOI into my life & game. For 46 years I was like Mike Sigel & did not even want to acknowledge or think about squirt/deflection as the spin was always the focus.
Thanks Again & All the Best to You,
Rick
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Which takes all of 10 seconds to figure out!
Best,
Mike
Mike,
Apparently you are a better player than me. It usually takes me about 3 or 4 full table shots to get the feel for the deflection of a particular cue.:wink:
Best,
Rick
I was being more than a little facetious when I posted that remark. :wink: Although I came back to the game after a 20 year layoff, and had never shot with a LD shaft before, I decided to buy one. I shot with it for a few shots and started making balls.
I tossed it and went back to my whippy maple shaft. It'd probably be harder to go the other way...starting out playing with a LD shaft and trying to play with a maple shaft. I'd probably smash the damn thing out in the parking lot! :grin-square:
Best.
Mike
I'm not sure what's happening with that stroke. With a level cue, if I hit middle left or right, the cue ball doesn't swerve back. I don't know if it's curving in the opposite direction, though it may be.
I like to use this stroke to move the cue ball in heavenly ways and to piss off my opponents. :smile: It plays differently on different tables, cue balls, etc.
Best,
Mike
My main thoughts when in "dead stroke" is TOI/ACCELERATE! and I can make ........
When we start using the Touch of Inside Technique it increases our awareness by leaps and bounds. I can tell how much a cue deflects in a matter of a couple of shots and I'm usually correct on the first shot (just out of habit I shoot a couple more for verification).
When I was at Bob Meucci's factory Bob and I had some interesting conversations about deflection and basically spoke the same language. He has the scientific data to back up his opinions and used this info. to create some of the first "low deflection" cues on the market. We actually were in full agreement on many things although his objective is to make a cue that deflects and swerves the same, so you don't have to adjust for english. He's actually making some break throughs in this area and I'm excited to experience his next generation of cues.
This way of playing (using outside to create the same deflection/swerve ratio) is fine, however, the TOI gives you something extra....something that I don't talk too much about because it is "super natural". One of the greatest "side effects" using the TOI is that it connects what is happening with the cue ball to your subconscious (which is like a mega computer) so that is aligns and connects EVERY TIME.....this means if you're favoring the left side of center and hit the cue ball it goes left EVERY TIME....you simply can't get this connection using "center ball".
After a period of time you will notice that you use LESS and LESS TOI to achieve the same amount of deflection....this may seem impossible, but it happens, from my experience, for two reasons.
First, your stoke gets more pure because your mind "real eyeses" how the cue ball is moving and gives you immediate feedback....over some time, observation and practice your stroke will start improving to get more positive feedback.
The second reason is your mind will actually learn to control the amount of movement the cue ball makes automatically. In other words I can use a VERY small amount of TOI and cut the ball more or less just by thinking about it.....this means my mind/cue ball/tip are synchronized.
This was what makes my level of play "spooky" at times because I'm basically hitting the same shot every time MENTALLY and just physically making sure my shot speed is consistent and my cue ball targeting is precise and accurate.
This is NOT an aiming system, this is an overall PLAYING SYSTEM.....there's a big difference, and is what makes the TOI "aiming" instinctive, yet in a systematic way.
My main {conscious} thoughts when in "dead stroke" is TOI/ACCELERATE! and I can make every shot for hours and hours....there's absolutely no way I could do this using "center ball," and the game wouldn't be near as much fun even if I could. 'The Game is the Teacher'
When we start using the Touch of Inside Technique it increases our awareness by leaps and bounds. I can tell how much a cue deflects in a matter of a couple of shots and I'm usually correct on the first shot (just out of habit I shoot a couple more for verification).
When I was at Bob Meucci's factory Bob and I had some interesting conversations about deflection and basically spoke the same language. He has the scientific data to back up his opinions and used this info. to create some of the first "low deflection" cues on the market. We actually were in full agreement on many things although his objective is to make a cue that deflects and swerves the same, so you don't have to adjust for english. He's actually making some break throughs in this area and I'm excited to experience his next generation of cues.
This way of playing (using outside to create the same deflection/swerve ratio) is fine, however, the TOI gives you something extra....something that I don't talk too much about because it is "super natural". One of the greatest "side effects" using the TOI is that it connects what is happening with the cue ball to your subconscious (which is like a mega computer) so that is aligns and connects EVERY TIME.....this means if you're favoring the left side of center and hit the cue ball it goes left EVERY TIME....you simply can't get this connection using "center ball".
After a period of time you will notice that you use LESS and LESS TOI to achieve the same amount of deflection....this may seem impossible, but it happens, from my experience, for two reasons.
First, your stoke gets more pure because your mind "real eyeses" how the cue ball is moving and gives you immediate feedback....over some time, observation and practice your stroke will start improving to get more positive feedback.
The second reason is your mind will actually learn to control the amount of movement the cue ball makes automatically. In other words I can use a VERY small amount of TOI and cut the ball more or less just by thinking about it.....this means my mind/cue ball/tip are synchronized.
This was what makes my level of play "spooky" at times because I'm basically hitting the same shot every time MENTALLY and just physically making sure my shot speed is consistent and my cue ball targeting is precise and accurate.
This is NOT an aiming system, this is an overall PLAYING SYSTEM.....there's a big difference, and is what makes the TOI "aiming" instinctive, yet in a systematic way.
My main {conscious} thoughts when in "dead stroke" is TOI/ACCELERATE! and I can make every shot for hours and hours....there's absolutely no way I could do this using "center ball," and the game wouldn't be near as much fun even if I could. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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There are a lot of factors that can cause the ball not to swerve back. I don't think the ball curving in the same direction as squirt is one of them.
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As far as any one has ever been able to demonstrate (to my knowledge) the amount of swerve you get depends on the angle of elevation of the cue stick. For years many believed incorrectly that it was just the side spin that caused the ball to swerve. Coriolis's rule also says how much draw and amount of side affect the total angle of curve.
This principle says says that if the cue stick is actually horizontal, there will be no curve. It is very, very hard to have a horizontal cue stick for most shots because the rail is in the way.
The principle also says that if you have a negative elevation, you can get the cue ball to swerve away rather than towards the side of english. I think this has been described in print but I can't find a reference right now. One demo:
![CropperCapture[59].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/217/217330-a187f88621269f8b0fb5a48533fca58a.jpg?hash=oYf4hiEmn4 "CropperCapture[59].png")
The cue ball is up on the rail and you shoot up on the ball with right english and about 45 degrees negative elevation. The three balls are in line. The cue ball curves to the left around the ball in the middle of the table and then hits the cushion and comes back also to the right of the ball in the middle of the table.
This principle says says that if the cue stick is actually horizontal, there will be no curve. It is very, very hard to have a horizontal cue stick for most shots because the rail is in the way.
The principle also says that if you have a negative elevation, you can get the cue ball to swerve away rather than towards the side of english. I think this has been described in print but I can't find a reference right now. One demo:
The cue ball is up on the rail and you shoot up on the ball with right english and about 45 degrees negative elevation. The three balls are in line. The cue ball curves to the left around the ball in the middle of the table and then hits the cushion and comes back also to the right of the ball in the middle of the table.
I know it's in print, but I can't find it either.
To actually see it ON the table, you don't have much room to work with because your cue is going to take up half the table to start with to be level.
A few years ago Bob Byrne showed me a semi-practical shot with negative elevation with both balls on or near a cushion, but I can't remember the exact situation. (It was not a reverse-masse shot.) It was played with follow to help get the elevation.I know it's in print, but I can't find it either.
What kind of table. I tried this and could not shoot up on the cb @ 45 degrees frozen on a gold crown rail.
Unless I am doing it wrong.
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The shot Byrne showed my was with only a very little negative elevation.
For shots with large magnitudes of negative elevation, it helps to have a table with leather web pockets so you can shoot up from under the table through the webbing at a cue ball on the brink of the pocket. I guess such a shot would be legal.
Through the webbing, reminds me to never bet on any shot on a pool table.
Lol.
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Thanks Mr. Jewett,
Even I have a better understanding of what's possible..
I do believe however that a level cue with max top & side english is in fact enough to cause a slight curve. (The cue does not have to be negative elevated) I think you can get the rotation on the cueball needed to perform that curve with that stroke.
Thanks for your input. You are a walking pool encyclopedia.
Even I have a better understanding of what's possible..
I do believe however that a level cue with max top & side english is in fact enough to cause a slight curve. (The cue does not have to be negative elevated) I think you can get the rotation on the cueball needed to perform that curve with that stroke.
Thanks for your input. You are a walking pool encyclopedia.
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