Regarding APA....

[Nullus]

There have been quite a few threads on here this week with the Nationals going on. These are just my personal observations.

Bottom line is, the APA is a great beginner league for amateurs but their handicap system has been flawed for many years, dating back to the 90's. It's too susceptible to sandbagging and manipulating of handicaps. Attention has been diverted away from it a bit lately by the new "3 point" scoring system which is also flawed (heavily leaning towards skill levels 2-4) where a single game won can generate a point for their team.

Most everyone that has played in both APA and NAPA knows that NAPA has the best handicap system out there where sandbagging and winning simply don't co-exist. Even BCA has had a better system in place since the 90's. The APA needs a complete overhaul of their handicap system, reduction system and the newly implemented 3 point scoring system. It's just a messed up league right now. If it weren't for the lure of the occasional free trip to Vegas, APA would already be on it's way out.

On top of all of this, APA is far behind when it comes to online coverage of their Nationals. No brackets, let alone updating. No way to access rosters of teams out there. It's just horrible by comparison to NAPA and BCA.

When more folks realize that BCA and NAPA have great Nationals events, maybe it will put some pressure on APA to take a look at the problems with their current state of affairs.

I played APA from the late 80's when it was still sponsored by beer companies up thru the new millennia. BCA was making it's presence felt back then due to the APA sandbagging dilemma and the newly implemented reduction system at the time. Then I moved and had almost a ten year break as I lived in and was surrounded by "dry" counties with no leagues.

I've recently gotten involved with leagues again after moving to a new area and sure enough, the local APA league is a bit of a mess as there are a few teams that seem to be overlooked by the local LO when it comes to sandbagging. It's so bad in this area that the captain of one of the sandbagging teams walks around bragging about it and despite making the LO aware of it on several occasions, nothing has been done about it in nearly seven months since first informing the LO to keep an eye out for it.

All the while, NAPA has started up and they have an excellent handicap system in place and a great National event, which I attended this past year, and is not difficult to qualify for if you're willing to show up and play weekly. Their system also isn't designed strictly as a business operation, forcing you to constantly split your team due to skill level caps.

Just my opinion on the state of amateur leagues at present. Don't get me wrong, I was a big fan of APA for years, but after a long absence, I see they still haven't fixed the flaws in their system. It looks like they still use the excuse "we're the biggest league out there". Well, yes, you are...but others are catching up. How long til you see the writing on the wall and take a look at things and how they might be made better?

I honestly hope you do, because I like the concept of the APA and would love to keep playing in it, but as someone who ran one of your leagues (with 400+ members) for nearly eight years and have recently come back to playing in leagues, i'm currently gravitating away from it and to others that appear to be truly more concerned with the players and not just the business end of things. Without the players, the business won't exist. How long are you willing to look the other way and risk that it hasn't been 'too long', before all of the players are gone?

 

[CreeDo]

NAPA and others may well handicap better, but I get tired of seeing the common accusation that the 23 rule is a business gimmick designed to break apart teams and maximize revenue.

Neither of us knows what was in Hubbard and Bell's head when they designed the league,
but if making it amateur friendly is one of the goals, then it's inevitable that you must break
up teams full of strong A players. You can't have 5 semipro players wrecking the rest of the field.

So you have to either limit how many good players can join, or handicap the crap out of them.
Since it's clear handicaps are imperfect, that's not a great solution.
How many racks of 8 ball would an APA1 or 2 win vs. an A player? In 100 racks it may never happen.
If nothing else it takes too much time.

So, common sense: you put in safeguards against a team being too strong.
Otherwise the scenario is: new players join, they go up against team Unholy Worldbeaters,
they lose 100% of their matches, they quit instantly.

If you wanna believe it's about money, ok, but a broken up team may get salty
about not being able to play together and just go elsewhere. Or quit league entirely.
Certainly there's enough crying about it on AZB to suggest this happens all the time.
So as a money-making gimmick, it's kind of risky.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

I think people care about APA and leagues in general a little too much. I view it as a way to hang out with my buddies once a week and play a little semi-competitive pool. No more no less. I agree the handicap system isn't great, but I just try my hardest and let the chips fall where they may. I don't care enough about winning the league or individual awards to try to game the system. I have 0 expectations of ever going to vegas. In my area APA is the only game in town, and our home bar is just a couple of minutes from my house. I suppose I could play NAPA or BCA, but that isn't where my friends are and I don't want to spend that much time in the car driving all the way across the city to where they have those leagues.

 

[Banks]

If you wanna believe it's about money, ok, but a broken up team may get salty
about not being able to play together and just go elsewhere. Or quit league entirely.
Certainly there's enough crying about it on AZB to suggest this happens all the time.
So as a money-making gimmick, it's kind of risky.

Yet they still have tons of members, so I think OP is missing something. This is like the 4th or 5th recent post by the OP trying to sell NAPA to APA members while simultaneously disparaging the league that they belong to.

If I want a cheap payday, I could just captain a team that doesn't forfeit and then go to town in the C or D/E division, right?

 

[DelaWho???]

Yet they still have tons of members, so I think OP is missing something. This is like the 4th or 5th recent post by the OP trying to sell NAPA to APA members while simultaneously disparaging the league that they belong to.

If I want a cheap payday, I could just captain a team that doesn't forfeit and then go to town in the C or D/E division, right?

At least the second thread started with an APA topic title that is a coomercial for the NAPA. Maybe a banner ad would be more effective. Then everyone will see it.

 

[APA BRIAN]

:deadhorse:

 

[GeoEnvi]

Attention has been diverted away from it a bit lately by the new "3 point" scoring system which is also flawed (heavily leaning towards skill levels 2-4) where a single game won can generate a point for their team.

They don't even have to actually - WIN - a single game. The game can be given to them by an E8, S8, or an opponents mistake. With that gifted game, a SL2 or SL3 is now automatically ON THE HILL and wins at least ONE point for their team - without having to do ANYTHING!

Even if the higher ranked player - say a SL6 - wins the next 6 games against the SL2, he only gets ONE more point than the SL2. Meanwhile, he had to win 6 straight games against a player on the hill. The SL6 effort is the one that should be rewarded for an extenuated effort, but it ends up being the SL2 who gets "bonus" points.

In the old system, the SL6 runs 6 racks against the hill and scores the ONLY point for the match. Didn't matter how he got there. Only the win mattered.

 

[CreeDo]

They don't even have to actually - WIN - a single game. The game can be given to them by an E8, S8, or an opponents mistake.

The saltiest I have ever been about the APA is very early when I was first raised to a 7, I scratched
on the 8, and in another game I believe I knocked it in playing careless position.
Managed to lose to a 2.

At the time I cried and cried to the LO. I railed that it's supposed to be determined by skill,
not a 50/50 coin flip. But the truth is... yes, it IS supposed to be a 50/50 coin flip. That is the goal
of the handicapping system, essentially. Both players have an equal chance to win.
So whoever plays better that particular evening wins. 2 careless errors on the 8 = I didn't like a 7, that evening.

You're making it sound like those S8's and whatnot aren't really wins. They are,
whether you're playing APA, BCA, even in the US Open 8 ball.
Easy wins are just a part of pool, for the most part.
Sucks to rattle a 9 ball for example and the other guy just taps in the hanger.
But if you can't accept that kind of loss, you might as well quit pool.

Yet they still have tons of members, so I think OP is missing something.

He may actually be right, that their formula is unfair and favors the weaker player.
That's no accident!

I keep hearing "They better smarten up before these other guys with fairer handicapping
eat their lunch!"

Well, the fairer handicapping leagues have like 1/5th as many members of the APA
for a reason. The APA WANTS newer players to feel like they can win, and so far
that's working out great for them. Why are they gonna change a winning formula
to make it more "fair"? Fair = anyone below a shortstop need not apply.

 

[GeoEnvi]

You're making it sound like those S8's and whatnot aren't really wins. They are,
whether you're playing APA, BCA, even in the US Open 8 ball.
Easy wins are just a part of pool, for the most part.
Sucks to rattle a 9 ball for example and the other guy just taps in the hanger.
But if you can't accept that kind of loss, you might as well quit pool.

NO. I'm not saying S8's aren't wins. I'm saying that they shouldn't be awarded "POINTS" under the APAs newest "3-point" handicapping system.

Before, an S8 gave an SL2 a reason to stick around in the game; and consequently, put extra pressure on the SL6 to tighten up their game and win. If the SL6, won... the SL2 got nothing more than a longer match.

Now, an S8 gives the SL2 points for just paying his $7.

Also, there's no 2-0 splits against a SL2 or SL3. You either sweep 3-0 or donate with a 2-1.

Throwing a SL2 on a SL6 or Sl7 used to be a sacrificial move to earn a point through a mismatch later on. Now, throwing off is a productive way of earning points for the night.

 

[Cory in DC]

NO. I'm not saying S8's aren't wins. I'm saying that they shouldn't be awarded "POINTS" under the APAs newest "3-point" handicapping system.

Before, an S8 gave an SL2 a reason to stick around in the game; and consequently, put extra pressure on the SL6 to tighten up their game and win. If the SL6, won... the SL2 got nothing more than a longer match.

Now, an S8 gives the SL2 points for just paying his $7.

Also, there's no 2-0 splits against a SL2 or SL3. You either sweep 3-0 or donate with a 2-1.

Throwing a SL2 on a SL6 or Sl7 used to be a sacrificial move to earn a point through a mismatch later on. Now, throwing off is a productive way of earning points for the night.

A legitimate 7 with a complete game (especially including knowing how to get out of unlucky breaks) should be able to consistently beat a 2 seven games in a row. All the new rules do is make the 7 bear down from the gate, In my book, that's a good thing. Same point applies to a 3.

Good 4s are tough for 7s. They were before and they are now. Still, the 7 is more likely to shut out the 4 than the reverse.

What is a little crazy in the new system is that matches among two 3s or two 2s can easily go 2-0 or 0-2 just by chance. If two players are dead even, then one player will win 2-0 25% of the time and get 3 points.

So far, the new system seems to make people try harder, so that's good. It also makes lower handicaps more important, which is probably also good. It does, however, make the dead weight 2 who can almost never win a game a real drag on the team.

On balance, I like it.

 

[justadub]

A legitimate 7 with a complete game (especially including knowing how to get out of unlucky breaks) should be able to consistently beat a 2 seven games in a row. All the new rules do is make the 7 bear down from the gate, In my book, that's a good thing. Same point applies to a 3.

Good 4s are tough for 7s. They were before and they are now. Still, the 7 is more likely to shut out the 4 than the reverse.

What is a little crazy in the new system is that matches among two 3s or two 2s can easily go 2-0 or 0-2 just by chance. If two players are dead even, then one player will win 2-0 25% of the time and get 3 points.

So far, the new system seems to make people try harder, so that's good. It also makes lower handicaps more important, which is probably also good. It does, however, make the dead weight 2 who can almost never win a game a real drag on the team.

On balance, I like it.

Agreed.

I'm that guy who tries to match up with similar skill level players if I can, at least during the regular session. I've always wanted my new players to have matches that they were actually "in", and would have some direct effect on the outcome.

Under the new system, many other captains are throwing off, very regularly. So I've had to adjust my strategies somewhat, which has been a challenge. It has created quite a few scenarios that wouldn't have happened under the old points system.

The place where the new system shines is keeping the 5's and 6's somewhat honest in their efforts, in instances where they might otherwise lay off a little. I think that as we get used to the new system, this will have an even greater effect.

 

[DelaWho???]

I always seem to be on those teams where the low skill player wants to play the 5 6 7 and as a captain it rarely made sense to do so. What happens is those players that want to play better players and learn from them get that chance to compete and improve. It adds a new dynamic to the game and encourages those who want to get better to try harder to do so.

 

[CreeDo]

NO. I'm not saying S8's aren't wins. I'm saying that they shouldn't be awarded "POINTS" under the APAs newest "3-point" handicapping system.

Before, an S8 gave an SL2 a reason to stick around in the game; and consequently, put extra pressure on the SL6 to tighten up their game and win. If the SL6, won... the SL2 got nothing more than a longer match.

Now, an S8 gives the SL2 points for just paying his $7.

Also, there's no 2-0 splits against a SL2 or SL3. You either sweep 3-0 or donate with a 2-1.

Throwing a SL2 on a SL6 or Sl7 used to be a sacrificial move to earn a point through a mismatch later on. Now, throwing off is a productive way of earning points for the night.

I get what you're saying, race to 2 means any win = you get credit for the hill-hill loss.

But honestly, how many "free points" do you see this way? How many times does the 8 carelessly scratch,
bump the 8 into a hole, or legitimately flat out LOSE to a 3 in 8 ball?
For a real 8, those 3 things are like once a season, not a weekly threat.

And if a 2 enjoys a little bonus and is valuable to the team because of that "bonus point" and this makes 2's and 3's
wildly popular in the APA... well, maybe that's their gameplan all along. If you want 100% fair, take up chess.

 

[CantEverWin]

NO. I'm not saying S8's aren't wins. I'm saying that they shouldn't be awarded "POINTS" under the APAs newest "3-point" handicapping system.

Before, an S8 gave an SL2 a reason to stick around in the game; and consequently, put extra pressure on the SL6 to tighten up their game and win. If the SL6, won... the SL2 got nothing more than a longer match.

Now, an S8 gives the SL2 points for just paying his $7.

Also, there's no 2-0 splits against a SL2 or SL3. You either sweep 3-0 or donate with a 2-1.

Throwing a SL2 on a SL6 or Sl7 used to be a sacrificial move to earn a point through a mismatch later on. Now, throwing off is a productive way of earning points for the night.

So before you got to win 1-0. Now if they get a game you win 2-1. What am I missing here? You still won by a point. In fact you win by 100% more in both situations. Who cares if the numbers are 1,000-2000.

I was a higher rated player when I played. Never did I enter a match and feel that a sl2 or a sl3 had any advantage on me. I guess I just don't get the feeling you have.



Btw, if you don't like that 3 point deal in Apa, you'd hate napa. Your opponent gets 1 point no matter what, and 4 points if they win a rack. (I think its 4, it might be 7) That includes the racks you lose, but the other player doesn't "win." Lol. Whatever those are.

 

[8onthebreak]

Leagues are designed for the masses...

They aren't designed to give great players the biggest advantage...the best players are already at an advantage. Nobody likes to lose. If you lose too much, you'll quit. That's why the handicapping systems are designed to handcuff the better players. A great player can get out of the handcuffs, but not without a lot of effort,...

Lets examine leagues for a second...
Lower rated players tend to statistically stay out longer at the bar after leagues. They tend to drink more alcohol, ...
Generally, your higher level players seem to leave after match, are more serious about the game, and don't drink as much, many don't drink at all.
More hours in the bar and more drinks equals more profit!!!
Next lets examine how many players there are in any area that are top level players, compared to entry to mid level players...there's probably 1 high skill player for every 10 low to mid level players...

So why would a league cater to only a few, non drinking, early leaving folks...just cause they are good???

Leagues are not started as non-profit organizations...

Also...guess who tends to complain about the management, the payouts, the handicaps, and everything else...yep...you guessed it, the better players.

The better players tend to also look at leagues as some sort of business, citing their return on investment, and how it costs them more in fees and quarters than they make...

DUH...it's entertainment.

You really need to see leagues for what it is...a service. Entertainment, don't count on getting rich, don't look for a place where you can win without even trying if you are good.

For these reasons, APA isn't even that interested in going after great players, heck, most team captains are more interested in a 4 or 5 than a 7...

I love being handcuffed...I have faith that I'll get out of them

 

[oshua86]

I for one think that APA 8-ball for the longest time has favored the higher ranked player. If you look at the win ratios for sessions you can see how the high rank players win a whole lot more 8ball than the low ranks, and when it comes down to 9ball the higher rank player wins less than the low rank. I think APA made a step forward with the 3point system, I like the low ranks having a chance against me, plus now I focus a whole lot more on 8ball to try and beat people 5-0,6-0,7-0 rather than just being on auto pilot and shoot my way out of the match, in which case since I dont play 8ball too often and now I take my time to play run outs and win every single game my 8ball game has gone up a couple of notches even tho its APA. Now as far as 9ball, well I think APA still needs to modify the handicap a little bit or the rules to make it fair, in 9ball there is already more luck in the game and when on top the handicap goes higher for the high ranks and most people are ranked lower in 9ball it can be brutal sometimes. I can be playing a SL5 on my 8ball match and its a 5-3 race, unless the SL5 is playing his absolutely best pool and I am playing bellow average that day I dont see him having much of a chance of beating me on 8ball, but then we turned around and play 9ball, now this SL5 is ranked a SL4 in 9ball and I am ranked a SL9, now this is a HUGE handicap jump, if i dont play very well and smart its a hard win, on top of the fact that I am being cuffed by not being able to push after the break, or use jump cues.

In my opinion APA should open up at least one more handicap like SL8 for 8ball, and at least allow push outs after the break for 9ball. I think this will even out the playing field a little bit more.