PRIME SPORTS TV - Earl Strickland vs CJ Wiley

[CJ Wiley]

2 Shot Rules are 10 Times better than One Foul

You never needed to play safe with two shot rollout. You played a two way shot that gave you position, but left your opponent safe. Sometimes it was a tough two way shot and you got to test your stroke.

Don't need a stroke on the fast cloth and live rails. You rarely need to draw the ball. You can go forward and hit five rails with spin. BTW, when did some of the stronger ladies start entering the men's tournaments? :smile: Probably flame worthy, but no disrespect is intended.

Pushout rules allow the player to go for the out instead of grinding with a lockout artist. Nine ball turns into a boring game when you're ducking on every rack. If I spot the seven with pushout rules, I'll only give up the eight with TE rules.

When Simonis came on the scene with cash in hand and sponsorships, everybody let them change the makeup of the game by using their cloth. Despite the noticeable change, nobody protested. I can barely hit the cue ball and will go up and down the table. It slides before it draws on a cut shot. :frown: Get rid of the trampoline rails, too.

Did anybody notice how quickly the cue ball slowed down and stopped on the video? It looked many times like it was hit too hard, but it came up good. No shooting for an extra rail when you can hold the cue ball with a good stroke.

Best,
Mike

You are correct on your observations, Mike, I could write a 100 page book on 2 Shot Shoot Out and describe how to play One Foul in a couple of paragraphs.

When the super fast cloth took over it effectively eliminated many of the best factors of the game. Of course the promoters took the money with no thought about the side effects of how the game would change. The Champion Players are sick about how the game is being played now, it's just a racking and breaking contest. If you get straight in on the end rail you can easily get back up table with a feeble stroke....it used to be a challenge.

The Game of Pocket Billiards right now is a watered down version of it's true potential. 2 Shot Rules are 10 Times better than One Foul ...that's like the difference between a "Golden" Harley and a kid's bicycle......it's sad, but true. 'The Game is the Upset Teacher' <<<<------CLICK THIS LINK FOR MORE FROM OTHER CHAMPION PLAYERS
THEN

NOW

 

[CJ Wiley]

a lot of that stalling around is gamesmanship.

Great match. Loved the tempo. Easy to watch, now a days players walk around the table 2 to 3 times before shooting, on every shot.

Yes, when pool really does get it's "Big Break" there must be a Shot Clock no more than 30 seconds......I'd prefer 20 myself, but I like to play faster than most players.

Any top pro knows what to shoot, so a lot of that stalling around is gamesmanship. imho

 

[CreeDo]

The Champion Players are sick about how the game is being played now, it's just a racking and breaking contest. If you get straight in on the end rail you can easily get back up table with a feeble stroke....it used to be a challenge.

You know, I remember my buddy and I laughing a few months ago because we remembered
you making that comment before, and I just happened to fall straight in on the end rail.
We joked around about it and then I had to shoot it. His table plays fast and I made it and
got back up the table.

But you know how you end up straight in on the end rail right?
Cuz you overdrew the previous shot by 20%

Seriously, it's a finesse game now and you need such careful touch on today's fast simonis.
You amp a ball even a little bit your cue ball is gonna rocket into outer space. And in my experience
that's just as difficult as having to occasionally hit some "hulk smash" stroke shot.

In fact, be honest, don't you find slower cloth EASIER?
All of your margins for error are larger. A 20% error in speed control travels the cue ball a shorter distance
than a 20% error on fast cloth. I found it much easier to stay in line, and I could hold the ball easily
if I fell too thin instead of having to go over-and-back which adds a lot of risk.

I can see the argument that 2-foul makes the game so exciting but IMO the faster cloth
makes the game more challenging. You may not need to bring out a monster trick-shot stroke very often
but if you play good correct pool, you never needed to anyway.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Tennis was heading that way and they made the tennis balls heavier

You know, I remember my buddy and I laughing a few months ago because we remembered
you making that comment before, and I just happened to fall straight in on the end rail.
We joked around about it and then I had to shoot it. His table plays fast and I made it and
got back up the table.

But you know how you end up straight in on the end rail right?
Cuz you overdrew the previous shot by 20%

Seriously, it's a finesse game now and you need such careful touch on today's fast simonis.
You amp a ball even a little bit your cue ball is gonna rocket into outer space. And in my experience
that's just as difficult as having to occasionally hit some "hulk smash" stroke shot.

In fact, be honest, don't you find slower cloth EASIER?
All of your margins for error are larger. A 20% error in speed control travels the cue ball a shorter distance
than a 20% error on fast cloth. I found it much easier to stay in line, and I could hold the ball easily
if I fell too thin instead of having to go over-and-back which adds a lot of risk.

I can see the argument that 2-foul makes the game so exciting but IMO the faster cloth
makes the game more challenging. You may not need to bring out a monster trick-shot stroke very often
but if you play good correct pool, you never needed to anyway.

No, the faster cloth definitely makes the game easier, any champion player will tell you the same thing (unless they have a vested interest in a certain cloth). Taking out all the power elements has made the game boring. The magic rack takes out the skill in breaking (Shane will bet he can make the corner ball 100 time is a row), and the jump cues make jumping extremely easy.

Tennis was heading that way and they made the tennis balls heavier so the new technology didn't ruin the sport and golf has done similar things in regard to the rough......maybe pool should take a closer look at what golf and tennis have done to maintain the integrity of the games.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

The fast tables have taken the power stroke out of the game. I agree, it's become a finesse game. Babying balls and slow rolling has become the norm. Balls never hit the back of the pocket. They just drop off of the table.

We need a compromise with the cloth and the slingshot rails. Give the cloth a little less speed and a little more bite. Dampen the rails about 10%. I don't want to hit a rail and have the ball come off faster than it went into the rail.

Make the balls click again and not bounce so much. They hop sometimes on hard draw shots when they hit the object ball. The newer balls also don't pick up the spin as much at higher speeds. I came back after a 20 year layoff and had to hit a new spot on the object ball for power stroke shots. Blah, blah. Don't think of it as new changes...think of it as getting RID of the last set of changes we didn't need.

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

Well said Mike.

Playing on my home table & playing out is like playing two(2) totally different games.

Best,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

Listen to what one Top Pro says about the "new" game of pro pocket billiards. <<<----

The fast tables have taken the power stroke out of the game. I agree, it's become a finesse game. Babying balls and slow rolling has become the norm. Balls never hit the back of the pocket. They just drop off of the table.

We need a compromise with the cloth and the slingshot rails. Give the cloth a little less speed and a little more bite. Dampen the rails about 10%. I don't want to hit a rail and have the ball come off faster than it went into the rail.

Make the balls click again and not bounce so much. They hop sometimes on hard draw shots when they hit the object ball. The newer balls also don't pick up the spin as much at higher speeds. I came back after a 20 year layoff and had to hit a new spot on the object ball for power stroke shots. Blah, blah. Don't think of it as new changes...think of it as getting RID of the last set of changes we didn't need.

Best,
Mike

Imagine if they were to speed up the baseball pitch by 50%, or the tennis court surface by 50%, or how about make the rim shorter in the NBA.....these things sound preposterous, however it's been done in Pocket Billiards. The Game is 50% faster because the rails are springy and the cloth is super fast.....and the cue ball is 2 grams heavier than the object balls.

....not to mention the gaff rack and emphasis on breaking the corner ball in every time by manipulating balls...... Was these equipment changes approved by a rules committee or were they just implemented because none of the Pros objected?

At some point we have to bring back the integrity of the game and make it challenging and strategic as possible so the game can be showcased in it's best light.

Listen to what this Top Pro says about the "new" game of pro pocket billiards. <<<----CLICK THIS LINK

 

[Mikjary]

We have rules about ball size, weight and uniformity, but I can't recall anything about their composition being monitored. Whatever the ball companies decide is best for us, we get. What if they changed the leather on the baseball and went with 4 or 5 different styles and vendors? Think anyone would notice?

I could probably change the makeup of the game we play by myself. If I had a cloth I thought we should all use, even if it was slightly different from the current cloth we now use, I could start supplying it to as many tournaments as possible as a sponsor. I could donate my new polymer balls and my newly designed tables with their special quirks and have everybody playing on them. Why? Because we're so hungry in this sport we'll do anything a new sponsor wants as long as we get it for free. We can't afford to say no.

The sponsors decide which equipment is best for us and when to change it as needed. We either love it, hate it or just rollover till the next best thing comes along. How many different cue balls are out there? I used to carry my own with me when I travelled years ago. How about the guys that bring a whole set of balls with them because they're proactive about not using balls from 4 different sets when they play? Ever hit a ball good and it didn't go? Could be you got a ball from a completely different set and it played differently than the rest do. Again, blah. blah.

We are whores to the industry. They have a whim and we jump. There's nothing wrong with the game except for the people that selfishly change it to suit their preconceived notions. I think we should look at the changes we've made and evaluate their impact. I know we'll find they've made the game inconsistent for many because of the constant "innovations".

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mike,

Again, well said.

I think that is where the BCA has let down the game.

How can a trade organization also be the governing body as it once was?

Conflict of interest?

Like when Roy Hobbs knocked the cover off the ball in 'The Natural' & the manage said, 'That's not a ball, we want a real ball.'

We want (& need) a real governing body.

Best,
Rick

PS How about different cloth speeds for different size tables. Close in speed but just slightly different. Golf has the 'Stymp Meter'. Billiards needs the 'Greenleaf Lag Speed Limiter'.

 

[CJ Wiley]

then everyone "Real Eyesed" - the game really IS the teacher

We have rules about ball size, weight and uniformity, but I can't recall anything about their composition being monitored. Whatever the ball companies decide is best for us, we get. What if they changed the leather on the baseball and went with 4 or 5 different styles and vendors? Think anyone would notice?

I could probably change the makeup of the game we play by myself. If I had a cloth I thought we should all use, even if it was slightly different from the current cloth we now use, I could start supplying it to as many tournaments as possible as a sponsor. I could donate my new polymer balls and my newly designed tables with their special quirks and have everybody playing on them. Why? Because we're so hungry in this sport we'll do anything a new sponsor wants as long as we get it for free. We can't afford to say no.

The sponsors decide which equipment is best for us and when to change it as needed. We either love it, hate it or just rollover till the next best thing comes along. How many different cue balls are out there? I used to carry my own with me when I travelled years ago. How about the guys that bring a whole set of balls with them because they're proactive about not using balls from 4 different sets when they play? Ever hit a ball good and it didn't go? Could be you got a ball from a completely different set and it played differently than the rest do. Again, blah. blah.

We are whores to the industry. They have a whim and we jump. There's nothing wrong with the game except for the people that selfishly change it to suit their preconceived notions. I think we should look at the changes we've made and evaluate their impact. I know we'll find they've made the game inconsistent for many because of the constant "innovations".

Best,
Mike

Yes, and combine that with rules that encourage luck and limit skill and strategy and what do you have left???..(Pool Lite)..that's right, a game that's diluted and going through the worst time in it's history......Do we really have to wonder why, when we consider all these negative factors?

These aren't just opinions, I'd be willing to debate (in a professional manner) all these points in any format so the hole can't be dug any deeper. Pocket Billiards and Shovels doing mix, we have to re establish the game as "The Master Game", and the sooner, the better for everyone in the industry and all the professional players livelihood.

What will be in the next chapter for pocket billiards?

The Game has been beaten, broken, and left for dead....then something happened, and the game came back to life.....a new game, in it's original form, ready for the spotlight again......it was armed and ready this time for the greatest pool show history has ever seen.....then everyone "Real Eyesed" - the game really IS the teacher. :groucho:

 

[one stroke]

Yes, and combine that with rules that encourage luck and limit skill and strategy and what do you have left???..(Pool Lite)..that's right, a game that's diluted and going through the worst time in it's history......Do we really have to wonder why, when we consider all these negative factors?

These aren't just opinions, I'd be willing to debate (in a professional manner) all these points in any format so the hole can't be dug any deeper. Pocket Billiards and Shovels doing mix, we have to re establish the game as "The Master Game", and the sooner, the better for everyone in the industry and all the professional players livelihood.

What will be in the next chapter for pocket billiards?

The Game has been beaten, broken, and left for dead....then something happened, and the game came back to life.....a new game, in it's original form, ready for the spotlight again......it was armed and ready this time for the greatest pool show history has ever seen.....then everyone "Real Eyesed" - the game really IS the teacher. :groucho:

I'm curious just when did pool become the master game , silly me I thought that was chess. but aside from that was it when made for TV rotation games were invented or was it 14.1 when precision had to last for hours and one miss could spell death
Or was it when there were no pockets at all

1

 

[CJ Wiley]

"It was rotation games when "2 Shot Shoot Out" rules were utilized". CJ Wiley

I'm curious just when did pool become the master game , silly me I thought that was chess. but aside from that was it when made for TV rotation games were invented or was it 14.1 when precision had to last for hours and one miss could spell death
Or was it when there were no pockets at all

1

It was rotation games when "2 Shot Shoot Out" rules were utilized. This took out most of the "luck" factors and replace it with thousands of variations of strategic possibilities.

Now if we could just stage a "Match to the Death" we could assure ourselves of the best ratings in history. Anyone want to play for these stakes? Come on, take one for the sport.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[one stroke]

It was rotation games when "2 Shot Shoot Out" rules were utilized. This took out most of the "luck" factors and replace it with thousands of variations of strategic possibilities.

Now if we could just stage a "Match to the Death" we could assure ourselves of the best ratings in history. Anyone want to play for these stakes? Come on, take one for the sport.

'The Game is the Teacher'

So why is one pocket not the master game? Many would say it is !


1

 

[CJ Wiley]

Kicking is the most skillful shot in one foul rules and it's just calculated luck

So why is one pocket not the master game? Many would say it is !


1

One Pocket is a great game for die hard pool fans that understand the strategy. The problem is the "do nothing shots" that come up quite a bit and knocking the balls down table and the taking a minute or three to shoot.

Two Shot Shoot Out Rules are much more strategic then one pocket because there's only one ball and 6 pockets to shoot at....the next ball plays a lead role in where you roll out to as well....the "Two Way Shots" are arguably the most skillful in the game and you CAN NOT win on a safety, which is a huge plus for spectators. No "ball in hand" makes the players play the game in the best possible manner - to aggressively win, not safely win.

Running a few balls, then locking the other player up so they have to "kick" at the ball is cowardly, however you have to play like that to win. I doubt if any champion player will say they really like to play this way, it's just something they have to live with......unless the rules change.

My vote is to make the game the best it can be, pure and simple. If anyone can convince a panel of judges that one foul is the best way to play, then so be it.....the fact of the matter is an entire book could be written on how to play "Shoot Out," and one foul would only take a "short story".

Kicking is the most skillful shot in one foul rules and it's just calculated luck AND a lot of three cushion billiard knowledge helps.....but it's not a real pool shot. Kicking has no positive place in pocket billiards - plain and simple. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

Two Shot Shoot Out Rules are much more strategic then one pocket because there's only one ball and 6 pockets to shoot at....the next ball plays a lead role in where you roll out to as well....the "Two Way Shots" are arguably the most skillful in the game and you CAN NOT win on a safety, which is a huge plus for spectators. No "ball in hand" makes the players play the game in the best possible manner - to aggressively win, not safely win. 'The Game is the Teacher'

2 shot rollout was very challenging with a strong player. They could roll out to jump shots all the time or banks. If you were weak in those areas, you were in trouble. I liked to roll out to stroke shots to test my opponents. If they passed the shot back and I ran out, they knew they had to either step up their game or go home. Take no prisoners.

If somebody rolls out to a tough shot, are you going to pass it up and give your opponent a chance at the table? I liked to roll out to two way shots that left my adversary hooked or way out of line on the next ball if I missed. You had to use a lot of strategy like a chess game to keep the other guy on the defensive.

Playing for a BIH foul and trying to kick safe are mind numbing. Sometimes you don't have a shot and it's smart to duck in one shot foul. In two shot, you rollout to a shot and the action continues. You go for the tough shot or you let your opponent get back to the table. Rarely did I ever do that. Ball in hand behind the head string is the only advantage a player should have. Quit changing things to make them easier. Keep the game tough!

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'll bet $100 against a "kick safe" it's true

2 shot rollout was very challenging with a strong player. They could roll out to jump shots all the time or banks. If you were weak in those areas, you were in trouble. I liked to roll out to stroke shots to test my opponents. If they passed the shot back and I ran out, they knew they had to either step up their game or go home. Take no prisoners.

If somebody rolls out to a tough shot, are you going to pass it up and give your opponent a chance at the table? I liked to roll out to two way shots that left my adversary hooked or way out of line on the next ball if I missed. You had to use a lot of strategy like a chess game to keep the other guy on the defensive.

Playing for a BIH foul and trying to kick safe are mind numbing. Sometimes you don't have a shot and it's smart to duck in one shot foul. In two shot, you rollout to a shot and the action continues. You go for the tough shot or you let your opponent get back to the table. Rarely did I ever do that. Ball in hand behind the head string is the only advantage a player should have. Quit changing things to make them easier. Keep the game tough!

Best,
Mike

That's exactly right. The Two Shot Shoot Out rules bring in to play a whole other dimension in strategy and shot options.....I will stand by my claim that it's 10 Times more interesting than One Foul, and I'll bet $100 against a "kick safe" it's true.