CB last before shooting

bigskyblue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was recently informed about looking at the CB last, before shooting. I was told the both Johnny Archer and Ralf Souquet look at the CB last, before shooting. Also, the great Willie Hoppe advocated CB last before shooting..

I got the information about CB last shooting from a well known pro I talked with at Hard Times pool room in Belflower CA. He said that once you've locked on to your visual OB target, by way of the CB, placing all of your concentrating on the contact spot on the CB increases your CB placement control dramatically. You're no longer worried about making the shot. Your only concern now is getting the CB to go where you want it to go.

I've been trying the technique for about two months. I may be crazy, but I think I'm shooting with much more control, touch, and accuracy.

Has anybody else tried shooting this way??
 
Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

Here is a link to a thread I started in January. It is working great for me. I have also heard Rodney Morris and Efren Reyes look at the cue ball last. I just finished 9-12 in the Washington State bar table 8 ball championship at the Golden Fleece. Many players noticed the improvement in my game. The tournament was won by Stan Tourangeau. He was telling my wife how well I had played and she told him about my switching to looking at the cue ball last. He said that's the way he does it too.
[edit]Correction to what Stan said. It was, "I have won a lot of tournaments doing that."[/edit]
Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
 
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I've thought about this a lot, particularly why I prefer to look at the ob last and not the cb last.

I have found that looking at the object ball last helps me in executing the proper speed of the shot --- because peripherally I am seeing the distance between the two balls, which is very important to me.

When I look at the cue ball last, I lose my feel for the distance to the object ball and I am just guessing on the speed, and therefore, I am not as confident about my stroke execution.
 
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I look at the OB last as well. Specifically the contact point on the OB. I agree with the speed control thing, but I'm also simply more accurate. There's a saying in riding motorcycles that applies, at least to me. That is "Look where you want to go, because you will go where you are looking." When I focus well on the OB contact point, my subconscious seems to do what it needs to get the CB there.

BTW, it's been awhile since I read Mosconi on Pocket Billiards but the way I remember Willie's ideas he advocated looking at the OB during the stroke..
 
on the break, and when you're "jacked up".

I was recently informed about looking at the CB last, before shooting. I was told the both Johnny Archer and Ralf Souquet look at the CB last, before shooting. Also, the great Willie Hoppe advocated CB last before shooting..

I got the information about CB last shooting from a well known pro I talked with at Hard Times pool room in Belflower CA. He said that once you've locked on to your visual OB target, by way of the CB, placing all of your concentrating on the contact spot on the CB increases your CB placement control dramatically. You're no longer worried about making the shot. Your only concern now is getting the CB to go where you want it to go.

I've been trying the technique for about two months. I may be crazy, but I think I'm shooting with much more control, touch, and accuracy.

Has anybody else tried shooting this way??

The only time I'd recommend looking at the cue ball last is on the break, and when you're "jacked up"....all other times you get more of a connection looking at the object ball immediately before contacting the cue ball.....look at the cue ball before that though because it is the primary "tip target".
 
Havent tried looking at CB last yet. I do remember Rodney Morris saying he looks at CB last in a instructional video. I personally have alse read Mosconi's book and he says OB last. Like I said I havent tried CB last but using OB last helps me messure speed, position angle, get a good feel for the shot, and see the landing strip that take CB to its contact point.

It helps me zone in on the contact point and at the same time see the space in between the OB and CB and the top of the cue ball.

Hope I word that good enough.
 
I'm a cue ball last guy, I guess just the way I learned since I was primarily self-taught. Arguments can be made both ways with various analogies and have been here numerous times. I've heard the same names you mentioned as others who purportedly look at the CB last.

Typically your eye patterns can be OB last, CB last and shift to the OB at a defined pause in the backstroke, or CB last and shift to the OB during the stroke. I'll add in CB last and stay focused there throughout the stroke, similar to how you see tennis players' eyes still focused on the moment of contact after the ball is already gone, although I think that's more a function of the speed of the shot.

Not sure about you, but myself and others typically fall into category 2 or 3. I shift during the stroke, and frankly it causes my head to sometimes lift slightly as well especially on long shots as my eyes lift up. It doesn't seem to affect my shooting much but I'm aware of it. It's because I can't see the OB in my peripheral vision, so on short to medium length shots it's not an issue.

Fran's point is excellent (as usual), and I've played around several times with trying to consciously move my eyes up to the OB last for that very seem reason. It's the same reason golfers sometimes putt while looking at the hole instead of the ball, it's amazing how your subconscious will make the right length stroke for the putt, as opposed to looking at the ball where we can make all sorts of movements and corrections that frequently aren't needed. I've just always had other things to work on and/or get frustrated with trying the change and go back to what's comfortable. I do try harder to do that on longer shots because of what I mentioned, and I also find on punch shots where I have a very slight angle and I really, really need to move the CB a lot and hit the shot very hard I try to focus on the OB, helps avoid steering.

I would say if you see an improvement stick with it, just be conscious of your entire eye pattern. Maybe you can gain the same benefits by still spending more time looking at the CB but looking up at the OB last. I know that I benefit from an extra second or two of looking at the shot before getting down and an extra second or two looking at the CB and making sure I'm on the right line and that I truly end up at center cue ball or whatever my target is. When I try to rush and get into a faster rhythm too prematurely mistakes creep in.
Scott
 
I like the way Fran explained it.

But the following may go more to what CJ referred to.

When I was a pitching coach for a middle school. Some pitchers would come from the playgrounds & they would stare at the catchers mitt.

They would not hit the catchers mitt but they would stare at it.

When I got them to take there eyes off of the mitt during their wind up & to only RE-focus on it as they started toward the plate, their accuracy increased immensely & they then hit the mitt that they were no longer staring at. Does anyone remember Juan Marichael (spelling?)

I know that that is not a directly related analogy physically, as there is more body action & turning in throwing a baseball. But not staring frees up the mind & body to work together. Acknowledge the target so the mind knows what it is you want to do but then don't inhibit the body from doing what must be done to accomplish the goal.

I have always looked at the OB last after I have decided where with english on the CB I wanted to hit the CB, Fran stated why rather well.

Since playing with CJ's TOI, because hitting the CB precisely since just that touch to the inside is a defining aspect, I have found myself bringing my eyes to the cue ball spot with only the OB in the peripheral because as CJ has said 'it will soon be gone'.

Before TOI I almost always hit the CB with more than a tip of english so looking at the CB last was not that important. The distance & speed of the shot was the important factor.

I can't speak to playing with always trying to hit the center of the cue ball but since the TOI requires a bit more precision than what I was doing before, I would think that if one is trying to hit the exact center of the cue ball that looking there last might be an advantage.

The point of all this is that there are other aspects that I would think that need to be defined as to how one is playing as to whether the CB or OB last might be a real advantage.

I hope something here helped more than it confused the issue.
 
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It may be how these players are defining "last"..

Havent tried looking at CB last yet. I do remember Rodney Morris saying he looks at CB last in a instructional video. I personally have alse read Mosconi's book and he says OB last. Like I said I havent tried CB last but using OB last helps me messure speed, position angle, get a good feel for the shot, and see the landing strip that take CB to its contact point.

It helps me zone in on the contact point and at the same time see the space in between the OB and CB and the top of the cue ball.

Hope I word that good enough.

It may be how these players are defining "last"....if you watch the tip hit the cue ball and consider that "last" that's one thing, however they mean something slightly different.

I've never played anyone that I noticed looking at the cue ball absolutely last and I've played Rodney and Efren several times .....hmmm, I guess I'll have to ask them as soon as I get the chance.
 
CB last with CTE is "Brilliant"

It may be how these players are defining "last"....if you watch the tip hit the cue ball and consider that "last" that's one thing, however they mean something slightly different.

I've never played anyone that I noticed looking at the cue ball absolutely last and I've played Rodney and Efren several times .....hmmm, I guess I'll have to ask them as soon as I get the chance.

I've found that CB last shooting works exceptionally well with CTE aiming and banking.
If you don't believe it, take a look at this demonstration by Stan "The Man" Shuffett.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJTJh05FEKw

Cheers mate,
 
When you are just starting to play, you need to know whether you land the cue ball on the object ball with the fullness you intended. It helps to be looking at the object ball when the cue ball arrives there. So.... I think it is very bad advice for beginners to have them look at the cue ball last except on the special shots CJ mentions above.

I think the vast majority of good players are looking at the object ball last.
 
When you are just starting to play, you need to know whether you land the cue ball on the object ball with the fullness you intended. It helps to be looking at the object ball when the cue ball arrives there. So.... I think it is very bad advice for beginners to have them look at the cue ball last except on the special shots CJ mentions above.

I think the vast majority of good players are looking at the object ball last.

Mr. Jewett,

With all due respect,

If they don't hit the OB with the fullness intended, would not the way the shot is missed tell them the same or nearly the same as 'seeing' the contact? How much contact can actually be seen at the higher speed shots? The angle the OB comes off tells one if the hit was too full or too thin.

You seem to be lumping all beginners in one blanket pigeon hole.

Don't you think that it would depend on the abilities & individuality of each beginner that might dictate as to actually what might be best for each beginner. CB 'last' or OB 'last'?

Assuming that you are talking about center CB hits for beginners, if one is not hitting the center, would not the CB last possibly help that beginner.

And conversely, if one has no problem hitting the center, then perhaps looking at the OB last would aid that beginner in the learning curve of the other aspects.

My point being that all beginners are not created equal.

Again, with all due respect, I am just seeking your reasoning if any beyond what you have stated. Not for me, but for any 'beginner' that might be reading & not taking any formal instruction.

Thanks in advance,

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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Miss quote of Stan

Here is a link to a thread I started in January. It is working great for me. I have also heard Rodney Morris and Efren Reyes look at the cue ball last. I just finished 9-12 in the Washington State bar table 8 ball championship at the Golden Fleece. Many players noticed the improvement in my game. The tournament was won by Stan Tourangeau. He was telling my wife how well I had played and she told him about my switching to looking at the cue ball last. He said that's the way he does it too.

Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

My wife corrected me this morning as to what Stan told her. It was "I have won a lot of tournaments doing that."
 
I was recently informed about looking at the CB last, before shooting.
I've been trying the technique for about two months. I may be crazy, but I think I'm shooting with much more control, touch, and accuracy.

Has anybody else tried shooting this way??
you are not alone, and accompanied by pro players already mentioned. There are two approaches (1. OB last 2. CB last), each of those has good reasoning behind.
I like the importance of precise CB hit mentioned by Rodney Morris and Johnny Archer, once you have lined up at the CB-OB line (I didn't have any chance to get familiar with what other pros using CB last think). Also George Fels talks about concentrating on the whitey in one of his instructionals.

That said, CB last will definitely not harm your play, and on the contrary, could well improve it. Go on using the technique which works for you.
 
imagine shooting a gun, or bow and never seeing where the bullet/arrow is connecting

I've found that CB last shooting works exceptionally well with CTE aiming and banking.
If you don't believe it, take a look at this demonstration by Stan "The Man" Shuffett.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJTJh05FEKw

Cheers mate,

Yes, looking at the cue ball last doesn't hurt your ability to hit the cue ball straight, what it does is prevent you from seeing the object ball go into the pocket clearly.

If you don't' think this is important then continue to watch the cue ball, however, the pocket is the final target, so just like shooting arrows, bullets, basketballs, golf balls, darts, etc. it's nice to see what your're actually hitting so you can make adjustments if necessary.

I really can't imagine shooting a gun, or bow and never seeing where the bullet/arrow is connecting the target......and pocket billiards (for me) is no different. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
I prefer "while executing the stroke".

Yes, looking at the cue ball last doesn't hurt your ability to hit the cue ball straight, what it does is prevent you from seeing the object ball go into the pocket clearly.
Snip.....
I have always avoided using "cue ball last" as describing what I do. I prefer "while executing the stroke" or "when the cue contacts the cue ball". Focusing on the point I want to hit on the cue ball and the line I want the cue tip to follow, does not prevent me from following the cue ball after impact by the cue. I am getting feed back as the tip contacts the cue ball and before the cue ball contacts the object ball. I have no problem seeing the resulting impact between cue ball and object ball. I know if I hit the ball where I intended before that collision. The results of that collision are easily observed.( I love the Yogiism, "You can observe a lot by watching"). At that point I can focus on the path of either ball.
:thumbup:

The break shot is an instance where the path of the cue ball after impact with the rack, tells me whether I have hit the shot accurately.
 
I have always avoided using "cue ball last" as describing what I do. I prefer "while executing the stroke" or "when the cue contacts the cue ball". Focusing on the point I want to hit on the cue ball and the line I want the cue tip to follow, does not prevent me from following the cue ball after impact by the cue. I am getting feed back as the tip contacts the cue ball and before the cue ball contacts the object ball. I have no problem seeing the resulting impact between cue ball and object ball. I know if I hit the ball where I intended before that collision. The results of that collision are easily observed.( I love the Yogiism, "You can observe a lot by watching"). At that point I can focus on the path of either ball.
:thumbup:

The break shot is an instance where the path of the cue ball after impact with the rack, tells me whether I have hit the shot accurately.

I like & agree with much of what you said there.

I seem to be going through a change regarding the eyes lately since playing with TOI.

I'm not exactly sure why. I have a couple of ideas, but I am not exactly sure regarding them.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
against any blindfold comparisons

CJ, with all due respect to you as a player and instructor, I would like to make some comments I got used to make when I see this "beaten to death" rifle shooting analogy.

]If you don't' think this is important then continue to watch the cue ball, however, the pocket is the final target
it is well known that once the line of shot (pocket-object ball) and line of aim (object ball- cue ball) are set, the pocket no longer is part of the shot. We even often have to shoot to a blind pocket, seeing no pocket at all during pre-shot routine. So in regard with our driving a cue ball to a target, the final target is always an object ball (unless playing rail first but such examples are not we are trying to cover here).

I really can't imagine shooting a gun, or bow and never seeing where the bullet/arrow is connecting the target......and pocket billiards (for me) is no different
Imagine that to make a bullet travel towards your target you don't have any "throwing device" like a rifle or pistol. Instead, you have to hit the bullet with a hammer to start the ignition. Would you still look at your target last??? Or instead, having lined it up with the target, you would have looked where to hit your bullet in order not to miss the center where the fuse is located?
I view the "hand-cue-cue ball" system more like a "hand-hammer-bullet" than a "finger-rifle-bullet" analogy.

Like I said before, I accept the most taught way of "OB last" aiming. But at the same time I feel that "CB last" is better. And again, the most important part of it is walking into the shot along the line of aim. Once done properly and aligned, it does not make much difference where to look last.

On a side note, my "CB last" technique is not like one might be visualizing, gaze the whitey all the way - I work my sight back and forth, looking at the CB at the time of contact and at the same instant through the cue ball towards the object ball (I wanted to underline this line instead of making it bold but this html tag doesn't work in AzB v4 skin). So as if I'm driving the cue ball with my eye sight instead of a cue stick.

Focusing on the point I want to hit on the cue ball and the line I want the cue tip to follow, does not prevent me from following the cue ball after impact by the cue.
I have no problem seeing the resulting impact between cue ball and object ball
actually this sounds just the same as I do and adds to my words
 
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CJ, with all due respect to you as a player and instructor, I would like to make some comments I got used to make when I see this "beaten to death" rifle shooting analogy.

it is well known that once the line of shot (pocket-object ball) and line of aim (object ball- cue ball) are set, the pocket no longer is part of the shot. We even often have to shoot to a blind pocket, seeing no pocket at all during pre-shot routine. So in regard with our driving a cue ball to a target, the final target is always an object ball (unless playing rail first but such examples are not we are trying to cover here).

Imagine that to make a bullet travel towards your target you don't have any "throwing device" like a rifle or pistol. Instead, you have to hit the bullet with a hammer to start the ignition. Would you still look at your target last??? Or instead, having lined it up with the target, you would have looked where to hit your bullet in order not to miss the center where the fuse is located?
I view the "hand-cue-cue ball" system more like a "hand-hammer-bullet" than a "finger-rifle-bullet" analogy.

Like I said before, I accept the most taught way of "OB last" aiming. But at the same time I feel that "CB last" is better. And again, the most important part of it is walking into the shot along the line of aim. Once done properly and aligned, it does not make much difference where to look last.

On a side note, my "CB last" technique is not like one might be visualizing, gaze the whitey all the way - I work my sight back and forth, looking at the CB at the time of contact and at the same instant through the cue ball towards the object ball (I wanted to underline this line instead of making it bold but this html tag doesn't work in AzB v4 skin). So as if I'm driving the cue ball with my eye sight instead of a cue stick.

actually this sounds just the same as I do and adds to my words

This is a bit of a hot topic lately.

I have been doing what you say for over 46 years.

Since playing with TOI, I have gravitated to looking at the CB longer & longer until now I am looking at the CB during the stroke up to contact or at least right before contact. On the firm shots I hear the OB hit the back of the pocket but I don't see it do so. Now when I mis I do see the mis. There is something there & I have not figured it out yet as I just noticed it Tuesday after nearly a 3 week lay off due to a tweaked back.

The above is the opposite of what CJ is advocating, but I totally understand what & why he is advocating it.

But let me say as to my problem stated above, my connection to the cue & my stroke have evolved from playing with TOI. What use to be a loose connection with a long & fluid stroke has evolved into a firmer connection to the cue with a more compact & quicker stroke.

I have played other 'hitting' sports, such as baseball, tennis, ping pong, etc. & I have never seen the implement hit the ball. Once the ball path as been determined & a decision to hit has been made the focus switches from hitting the ball to where one wants to make it go. Obviously not so much in fast pitch baseball but in softball, tennis, & ping pong (table tennis) the focus is where does one want to put the ball & how. A ground ball or in the air. A top spin cross court or up the line. Maybe a drop shot just over the net. The eyes shift to the 'secondary real target'. Hitting the ball is not the target. One can hit the ball over the net or over the fence. Are you playing singles or doubles? What line is your target & where do you 'aim' the ball?

Now I know that billiards involves three(3) targets as CJ has stated, the cue ball, the object ball, & the pocket, or portion of the pocket for some of us. So...that is more like hand ball, racket ball, or Jai Lai, where the first target is being bounced off of a second target or two to hit the final target.

Anna Sorentam(spelling?) allows her head & eyes to turn from off the ball before contact. There are a couple of newer young male players that are doing the same thing.

To CJ's point, If one is hitting the center of the cue ball then there is no need to see the ball go into the pocket because there is no adjustment that one can make if it goes in the full or thin hit side instead of the middle. It was either mis hit on the cue ball that produced unintended squirt &/or spin in one direction or the other OR it was a perfect hit with a bad aim or shot line perception.

But if one is using the squirt or english to 'create' the angle that the OB takes to the pocket then seeing where the ball hits the final target, the pocket, is rather informative in what might be a vital sort of way. And that is because an adjustment to the exact same alignment & 'aim' can be made by the addition or subtraction of the dynamic aspect, the squirt or the spin for swerve & throw.

So, as always it is to each his own & be at choice. Different styles & levels of play may benefit from one more than the other.

As so often is the case, certain parameters are left out of discussions here on AZB. It is difficult if not impossible to have a true discussuion in an open forum text format.

Anyway, I am not 'arguing' one way or the other. I am just throwing out some food for thought.

Best Wishes to All,
Rick

Hitting with english or TOI is a more a Dynamic method of play. Know
 
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This is a bit of a hot topic lately.

I have been doing what you say for over 46 years.

Since playing with TOI, I have gravitated to looking at the CB longer & longer until now I am looking at the CB during the stroke up to contact or at least right before contact. On the firm shots I hear the OB hit the back of the pocket but I don't see it do so. Now when I mis I do see the mis. There is something there & I have not figured it out yet as I just noticed it Tuesday after nearly a 3 week lay off due to a tweaked back.

The above is the opposite of what CJ is advocating, but I totally understand what & why he is advocating it.

But let me say as to my problem stated above, my connection to the cue & my stroke have evolved from playing with TOI. What use to be a loose connection with a long & fluid stroke has evolved into a firmer connection to the cue with a more compact & quicker stroke.

I have played other 'hitting' sports, such as baseball, tennis, ping pong, etc. & I have never seen the implement hit the ball. Once the ball path as been determined & a decision to hit has been made the focus switches from hitting the ball to where one wants to make it go. Obviously not so much in fast pitch baseball but in softball, tennis, & ping pong (table tennis) the focus is where does one want to put the ball & how. A ground ball or in the air. A top spin cross court or up the line. Maybe a drop shot just over the net. The eyes shift to the 'secondary real target'. Hitting the ball is not the target. One can hit the ball over the net or over the fence. Are you playing singles or doubles? What line is your target & where do you 'aim' the ball?

Now I know that billiards involves three(3) targets as CJ has stated, the cue ball, the object ball, & the pocket, or portion of the pocket for some of us. So...that is more like hand ball, racket ball, or Jai Lai, where the first target is being bounced off of a second target or two to hit the final target.

Anna Sorentam(spelling?) allows her head & eyes to turn from off the ball before contact. There are a couple of newer young male players that are doing the same thing.

To CJ's point, If one is hitting the center of the cue ball then there is no need to see the ball go into the pocket because there is no adjustment that one can make if it goes in the full or thin hit side instead of the middle. It was either mis hit on the cue ball that produced unintended squirt &/or spin in one direction or the other OR it was a perfect hit with a bad aim or shot line perception.

But if one is using the squirt or english to 'create' the angle that the OB takes to the pocket then seeing where the ball hits the final target, the pocket, is rather informative in what might be a vital sort of way. And that is because an adjustment to the exact same alignment & 'aim' can be made by the addition or subtraction of the dynamic aspect, the squirt or the spin for swerve & throw.

So, as always it is to each his own & be at choice. Different styles & levels of play may benefit from one more than the other.

As so often is the case, certain parameters are left out of discussions here on AZB. It is difficult if not impossible to have a true discussuion in an open forum text format.

Anyway, I am not 'arguing' one way or the other. I am just throwing out some food for thought.

Best Wishes to All,
Rick

Hitting with english or TOI is a more a Dynamic method of play. Know

Regarding your quote in bold --- funny you should mention that. Based on the research I've done on golf lately, It's my impression that golfers are just recognizing that they actually don't see the club hit the ball because the force of the swing pulls their head up before impact. If they try to force their head to stay still through the swing, they are actually hurting the natural motion of the swing.

I wouldn't exactly compare it to a pool stroke because of the amount of movement involved and the intensity and force.
 
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