The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

[Paul Schofield]

Larry never succumbed to the pressure mounted by pool players to call the pocket on solids and stripes in Eight-Ball. Larry was a knowledgeable player and an astute businessman. He understood better than anyone the downfalls (there are a lot of them) of calling balls.

Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized? I can’t think of one. I refer to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area. Those sports and Larry Hubbard must know or have known something that the pool community does not.

I am taking Larry’s approach a step further. I am running weekly Eight-Ball tournaments in my place and we are not calling anything, NOT EVEN THE 8 BALL. It is going very well.

 

[hang-the-9]

Larry never succumbed to the pressure mounted by pool players to call the pocket on solids and stripes in Eight-Ball. Larry was a knowledgeable player and an astute businessman. He understood better than anyone the downfalls (there are a lot of them) of calling balls.

Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized? I can’t think of one. I refer to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area. Those sports and Larry Hubbard must know or have known something that the pool community does not.

I am taking Larry’s approach a step further. I am running weekly Eight-Ball tournaments in my place and we are not calling anything, NOT EVEN THE 8 BALL. It is going very well.

I'm sure all the lower level players love that rule. If you take away the need to break and have them place each ball where they want before the start of the game, no need to hit a rail on the shot and take away the need to have one foot on the floor it would be even better for them. Setting up the tables so they roll towards the pockets may be helpful as well, that way there is no need to aim, just hit within 1/2 diamond of the pocket and in it goes.

You basically setup an APA tournament. Which rules very very few players over C level like.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I'm sure all the lower level players love that rule.

They are the same rules that the pros play Nine-Ball, Ten-Ball, and One-Pocket with. I do not see the difference. Play Eight-Ball the same way. I am trying these rules in my tournaments with better players. I am having some success. It seems to make a lot of sense. I am not getting any complaints.

Larry Hubbart was the teacher.

 

[ctyhntr]

APA markets itself as a beginner/intermediate league, and in some parts of this country the APA is the only pool league available. If this was amateur baseball, I would understand the frustration and misunderstanding when high school varsity level players or better have no option but to play little league.

 

[sfleinen]

They are the same rules that the pros play Nine-Ball,

9-ball has always been a "non-" call-shot game. This is a non-sequitur.

Ten-Ball,

As host Richard Dawson of "Family Feud" used to say, "Our survey says... Ehhhhhhhhht!!"

Ten-ball is a call-shot game, and other than the anomalous, "Look at us, we be playin' 10-ball!" barbox tournaments in the midwest U.S., most pro 10-ball tournaments are call-shot, as per WPA rules:

"The Rules of Play: 10-ball"
http://wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=118&pagetype=rules

and One-Pocket with.

This is also a non-sequitur. In one pocket, the player HAS ONLY A SINGLE TARGET POCKET, so making this a "call-shot" game is roughly analogous to calling your pool hall "an establishment where the game of pool is played with pool cues, pool balls, and on a pool table." Extremely superfluous and unnecessary.

Now if you added "straight pool (14.1)" to your list of games played at your hall where call shot is not employed, you'd be making a statement. But let me guess -- "straight pool is dead, so no need to even discuss it." Right?

I do not see the difference.

And that's the problem.

Play Eight-Ball the same way. I am trying these rules in my tournaments with better players. I am having some success. It seems to make a lot of sense. I am not getting any complaints.

You may have "some" success with better players, because banging at balls (blasting at clusters) is much less of a problem. When you see a player taking aim at a shot, you pretty much know what the intended pocket is, sans the discrepancy that could occur with e.g. combinations, caroms, banks, etc.

Larry Hubbard was the teacher

He was the teacher for an AMATEUR league that was designed to get rid of the typical stupid arguments that *usually* occur on bar table equipment, i.e. the stupid "call everything" rules (i.e. must call every contact, every cushion, etc.). Nixing that stupidity also nixed the arguments that went with it -- i.e. "did I initially hit one of my category of balls, and did one of my category of balls go into a pocket? End of argument." That was smart, for an AMATEUR league. Yes, he was the teacher for that.

But get better than the average bar banger -- i.e. folks that normally play on typical pool hall equipment (not bar equipment), and you've a different story. The rules should reflect that.

-Sean <-- definitely sees how "No Conflict" rules (but with call-shot) could be a great tournament format

 

[Neil]

Larry never succumbed to the pressure mounted by pool players to call the pocket on solids and stripes in Eight-Ball. Larry was a knowledgeable player and an astute businessman. He understood better than anyone the downfalls (there are a lot of them) of calling balls.

Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized? I can’t think of one. I refer to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area. Those sports and Larry Hubbard must know or have known something that the pool community does not.

I am taking Larry’s approach a step further. I am running weekly Eight-Ball tournaments in my place and we are not calling anything, NOT EVEN THE 8 BALL. It is going very well.

1. Why is it that so many want to compare pool to other sports? Is it just because they can't come up with a decent argument on it's own? Never heard a football player complain because rugby has this, and football doesn't. Or a golfer compare himself to a bowler, ect. ect. Pool is pool, not some other sport.

2. Interesting how you call pool a sport, then find yet another way to cheapen it by taking even more skill out of it.

 

[sjm]

I suspect you are referring to Larry Hubbart, not Larry Hubbard.

 

[Paul Schofield]

1. Why is it that so many want to compare pool to other sports? Is it just because they can't come up with a decent argument on it's own? Never heard a football player complain because rugby has this, and football doesn't. Or a golfer compare himself to a bowler, ect. ect. Pool is pool, not some other sport.

Neil, you are missing my point. The common denominator is the human being. I am saying that the other sports most likely take into account a human nature factor when setting rules. I think there is something to this. Every sport has complex strategies and defined plans and plays. They are allowed to deviate and maybe even get lucky. Just the right amount of this makes for a great sport and entertainment.

Contrary to what I am reading in this thread, at one time, there was no calling of balls in Eight (except the 8), Nine, and Ten-Ball. I often wonder if pool has evolved itself right into a corner.

 

[lorider]

I'm sure all the lower level players love that rule. If you take away the need to break and have them place each ball where they want before the start of the game, no need to hit a rail on the shot and take away the need to have one foot on the floor it would be even better for them. Setting up the tables so they roll towards the pockets may be helpful as well, that way there is no need to aim, just hit within 1/2 diamond of the pocket and in it goes.

You basically setup an APA tournament. Which rules very very few players over C level like.

hey i can play that game also with wpa or bcapl rules if you prefer.

open after break. easier for lower level players. hey i made a stripe on the break , dont see a single decent shot at another stripe but i see a road map with solids, think i will take them.

bih any where on the table after a scratch, hey i see a runout if i start down at the foot of the table.

missed the 8 and scratched. hey no problem i stil got another chance if my opponent don't runout.

call your pocket. well i watched the ohio bcapl team championships online last year. a guy called the bottom right corner pocket, he miscued but still hit his object ball. it hit another ball then the rail and then another ball then the pocket. in my book it was a slop shot all day long but hey.. he called that pocket.

back to the open break. i am just an apa 5 and usually get about 2 break and runs a session. i also play in a money league using the bcapl points format. i get a least 1 break and run a night.

being a retired bar banger it was hard for me to get used to the slop in apa but now i look at it as spotting a lower level a few slop shots much like an a player would spot a c player a few balls in a match. looking at it that way keeps me from getting irate knowing it should be my turn at the table when they slop 1 in and it makes me more determined to run over them when i do get to the table.

i also play napa league.some lower level players like me dont mind playing any league and really don't see the need to bash any of them.

 

[Paul Schofield]

What I am saying is: There are things that can be done to our game, that require more skill, that actually give an even bigger advantage to the better player, and at the same time make the game more pleasing to everyone. I think that calling balls could be short sighted and could actually hurt our cause. I think Hubbart knew this.

Cause; Make the game more skilled and more fun to play and watch. Get more people involved.

 

[Neil]

What I am saying is: There are things that can be done to our game, that require more skill, that actually give an even bigger advantage to the better player, and at the same time make the game more pleasing to everyone. I think that calling balls could be short sighted and could actually hurt our cause. I think Hubbart knew this.

Cause; Make the game more skilled and more fun to play and watch. Get more people involved.

You see, Paul, this is what I just don't understand. You say you want more skill in the game, yet everything you propose takes skill away from the game. :scratchhead:

 

[Paul Schofield]

You see, Paul, this is what I just don't understand. You say you want more skill in the game, yet everything you propose takes skill away from the game. :scratchhead:

Hey Neil, I am not proposing anything. I am telling you what I am doing. I do things. If they work out, I share them with everyone. It is all voluntary. You do whatever you want to do and play however you want to play. It's all good.

To answer your question, all you have to do is ask yourself "What are all the ways that a weaker player wins?" Look for ways to adjust rules that diminish his chances but at the same time are more pleasing for him. I think the called ball could be going against human nature for most people. I can only summize that all other sports view "having to call stuff" way over the top.

 

[Neil]

Hey Neil, I am not proposing anything. I am telling you what I am doing. I do things. If they work out, I share them with everyone. It is all voluntary. You do whatever you want to do and play however you want to play. It's all good.

To answer your question, all you have to do is ask yourself "What are all the ways that a weaker player wins?" Look for ways to adjust rules that diminish his chances but at the same time are more pleasing for him. I think the called ball could be going against human nature for most people. I can only summize that all other sports view "having to call stuff" way over the top.

Why should the weaker player win? What glory or satisfaction is there in that? What ever happened to "let the better man win" ?

Why should anyone bother to practice if they can win without getting better? How is that going to help the rooms at all? Rooms need people in them practicing to get better. That's the problem with the league system now, most won't practice because their handicap will go up. So, outside of league night, no one is in the rooms anymore.

What we need is incentive for players to improve. To spend time in the rooms. To want to win out of skill and personal pride. The joy of pool is in accomplishing a difficult task, and making it seem easy. Taking the skill away also takes away the personal enjoyment of improvement. And, I believe, will also do more harm to pool in the long run.

 

[fathomblue]

I, for one, am also sick of pool being compared to other sports. There's just nothing else like it.

I'm also against anything that dumbs down.......anything.

I'd rather have pool die a slow, torturous death as a glorious sport/game.....played by intelligent, creative players that have amazing hand/eye coordination and critical thinking/problem-solving skills..........than to have it flourish in a diluted form, by bangers, hackers and other ilk.

The world, and society as a whole, is getting dumber by the day. Only the strongest should survive, get the trophy, pull down the cash, etc. If you're not one of those, then continue to work hard till you can/do. Or as John Brumback once told me, "......if the guy can't figure that out, he should try another sport, like fuking bowling or somethin'."

If I had my druthers, every game would be call your ball and call your pocket. As pool players, we already have to deal with various tables sizes, pocket sizes, hacktastic table mechanics, types (and colors) of cloth and even the balls themselves. Humidity and room conditions are a huge factor too.

So, for all the hard work and table time that SERIOUS players put in to be able to overcome/adapt to the above conditions.......one would want to allow players to just "ride the lightning" on 75% of their shots, with the potential for it to be 100%?

This clip crystalizes my thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK-Dqj4fHmM

I think a person should only be rewarded for results AND hard work. Anyone can fall into good results from time to time. Anyone can work hard all the time, but not have the results they desire (and for some people, the fact that they worked hard, but fell short is ok with them.....and I don't have a problem with that for THEM).......but, true rewards should be saved for those that show the results AND have worked hard to accomplish that. So, I try to do both.

Whew. I need a drink. Did I just go on a vent? :angry:

 

[Paul Schofield]

Neil, Read my post again. I am with you. I am all for the weaker player winning LESS, even less than he wins now. I say that he should have more fun while he loses.

 

[fathomblue]

Why should the weaker player win? What glory or satisfaction is there in that? What ever happened to "let the better man win" ?

Why should anyone bother to practice if they can win without getting better? How is that going to help the rooms at all? Rooms need people in them practicing to get better. That's the problem with the league system now, most won't practice because their handicap will go up. So, outside of league night, no one is in the rooms anymore.

What we need is incentive for players to improve. To spend time in the rooms. To want to win out of skill and personal pride. The joy of pool is in accomplishing a difficult task, and making it seem easy. Taking the skill away also takes away the personal enjoyment of improvement. And, I believe, will also do more harm to pool in the long run.

I couldn't agree with you more, Neil.

I'm a member of a handicapped league here in Arkansas. Not trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth here, but I'm smart enough to realize that if it weren't handicapped, the league would die.....fast. To me, that's more of a testament to people's mentality than anything else.

I was rated as a 5-speed when I initially joined the league two years ago. After the first year, even tho I didn't have great results to show for it, I politely requested to be moved to a 6-speed. I was told that I didn't have results that would indicate that I was a 6, and that I should continue to improve and win/cash in more events before I ought to be moved up.

Now, I could have said, "I don't care. Move me up." And per league rules and common sense, they would have. I'm only making it harder on myself, right?

This "rejection" lit a bit of a fire under me and I worked hard to play better the first half of my second season. At that midway point, I again asked to be moved up. I had put up a couple of decent finishes, but still nothing spectacular and was given the same answer.

During the 2nd half of that season, I was lucky enough to establish a rapport with CJ Wiley, among others, and I finally won a couple of tournaments, two of them in one week during a nice stretch.....and I was getting actual, verifiable results. So, I asked again to be moved up at the end of the year. Guess what? They DID move me up.

However, there was another slight twist to it that I found out a bit later.......everyone's handicaps were evaluated at the end of the year and the league board did NOT vote to raise my rating. I ended up being raised, simply because I had asked. This doubly infuriated me.

Before anyone says, "Hey. You got what you had originally asked for! Why are you griping?" Yes, I got what I asked for, but it was as if they disregarded the results that they asked for in the first place and only gave me what I wanted to pacify me.

So, I hit Tunica again this year. Took my licks in all 3 Open disciplines. Actually won a match in Banks, which was huge for me. Played CJ a lot, listened to what he had to say, racked for him BUNCHES, studied the way he played and carried himself. I also talked to and studied other pro's while I was there.

Came home and practiced on my home table. Did the same at my friend's house on his Brunswick. Continued to get in the grease by playing in non-league tournaments and our little typical $1/game "coughactioncough" matches at my local room. Generally tried to hit balls at least 4-5 nights a week, at a minimum, in some form or fashion.

When the league started back up again this season, I went 2 and out at my first two tourneys. It happens. Then I finished 2nd in a small, bi-weekly tourney. The next weekend I cashed, tying for 13th in a 56-player field, while really rolling thru some higher level competition. The two players to finally eliminate me were both 10-speed Master players who are among the best in our state. Probably just below shortstop speed. Solid, solid players, but no Chip or Joey's (and I'm NOT sayin' they're shortstops, cuz in my eyes, they're solid pro's. I've just actually watched those particular guys play a lot, so it's easier for me to compare local players to them).

Anyway, as the last ball dropped and I was eliminated from that day's tournament, I shook my opponent's hand, then immediately turned to my right and sternly requested for my handicap to be RAISED by the league president. I hadn't even had time to unscrew my cue yet. This time there was no arguing or questioning of my request. He gave me a quick nod and a smile. By the end of the night, I had a fresh league card with my new rating on it.

I've always HATED handicaps in pool. That's why I truly enjoy Open tournaments (for the few I can find or make it to) that are heads up. Everyone shows up having to earn the same amount of games.

If I show up to a tournament and I'm lucky enough to draw a Chris Melling, SVB, Johnny Archer, etc.........and I only have to win 3 games and they have to win 12.....am I going to go home and brag? Ok, yea, I probably would. A little. But, anyone that knows me would also know that I'd absolutely make sure to put that detail in my yarn. "Hey, I beat this pro, but only had to win 3. Now, he did get 10 on me, but.....".

However, the day will come when I can hold my head high, come home from a tourney and say, "I played (insert pro's name here) and won 9-7. Straight up."

Who WOULDN'T want it that way?

And YES, I take pool waaaaaaaaay more seriously than most. I realize that and I'm definitely ok with it. For an "average Joe" with a 50/hour a week job, pool is my absolute life's passion.

So, to finish yet another tirade for the night, one might ask, "So, to back up a bit, why did you sternly request that your handicap be raised?"

The answer is simple. I was comfortable. I don't want that. I've seen far too much high level pool to EVER want to be.......comfortable. I have SOOOOOO far to go to be considered a serious player, in my eyes. So, I hunger for that added pressure.

While I might get crushed for a little while with this new handicap, since there will be times that I'll have to give my opponent more games on the wire, or get less games on that same wire, if I'm playing a higher level person......at some point, I'm going to start figuring out how to outrun the nut. And when I do outrun that nut, I'll know I've improved and eventually do it at a rate that I'll be "comfortable" again. That's when I'll move up yet another level.

Pool is not about the destination. It's about the journey.

What was the question again, Neil? :thumbup:

 

[Paul Schofield]

fathomblue, You are in a league of your own. There is way too much anger in your posts. This is only pool. We are doing recreation. It would be really great if the Indians win tomorrow. We are rabid Tribe fans around here. Down deep, we realize that it really does not matter. We are just having fun.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I suspect you are referring to Larry Hubbart, not Larry Hubbard.

Or maybe L. Ron Hubbard.

----------------
BTW, you have to call your pocket in golf too (so to speak). You can't play to any hole from any tee.

If you want to play slop in a game other than 9 Ball, might I suggest 3 cushion.

 

[fathomblue]

fathomblue, You are in a league of your own. There is way too much anger in your posts. This is only pool. We are doing recreation. It would be really great if the Indians win tomorrow. We are rabid Tribe fans around here. Down deep, we realize that it really does not matter. We are just having fun.

While I used words that one could easily interpret as anger, because they DO have a negative connotation, such as "infuriated, griping, tirade, or vent".....I prefer to call it passion. There are several members of this board that I personally know and shoot pool with on regular and not-so-regular occasions that would attest to the fact that I'm, indeed, not an angry player.....I'm a passionate, driven one.

When I win, I win. I shake hands, look them in the eye, and thank the opponent for the game. If they shot poorly and I shot great, I inform exactly that to anyone that asks. I let people know that it was "just my day". In other situations, I will also be truthful and say that they played their speed, I played mine and I won. I also acknowledge if I "got the rolls".

When I lose, I lose. I still shake my opponent's hand, look them straight in the eye and tell them, "Good match. You're a better player. Thanks for the time." Sometimes I'll modify that to, "Good match. You're a better player.....today. I'll see you next time." Those are the ones that I know I'm close to breaking thru against.

I never disparage my opponent or make them feel uncomfortable. I want players to want to play me. I love pool that much. I know so many players that others do NOT want to play for various reasons, whether it be the fear of that other person firing an air barrel, abrasive attitude, cockiness, being a poor loser, being a poor winner, etc. etc.

Now, as for the bolded portion of your post, I'm a DIEHARD K.C. Royals' fan. There's nothing I want more than for the Indians to get crushed this post season. We played them tough this season and came up short by being eliminated from play-off contention just a couple of days ago.

I'm jonesin' for a Pirates-Rangers World Series this season, fwiw, which is nothing.

To get back on subject, if your league is successful, more power to you. I just personally wouldn't participate in a total slop format and have an opinion that if pool culture went that direction.....that it would "dumb down" the sport as a whole.

Perhaps, I should have initially posted that last paragraph originally, and left it at that.

My apologies for letting my passion boil over to the point that I appear as an angry player.

I suppose what "set me off" is that the format almost seems like a microcosm to the way the world itself is heading.

Cheers.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Or maybe L. Ron Hubbard.

Definately not Old Mother Hubbard.