The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

Can someone tell me how much lucky shots plays in determining the outcome of a match of say 5 games? Can luck really beat skill in the long run?

As I've said before call shot only shifts the luck from shooter to the one sitting in the chair.
Its unlucky for the sitter and lucky for the shooter. or If the shooter misses, or pockets in the un-called pocket, luck goes to the sitter.

What if you're the shooter and miss but come up with a lucky safety? Should that be penalized too. After all you planned to pocket a ball, not shoot the safe but got lucky after hitting the ball bad.

Is it not humorous and fun when all you avid shooters luck in a shot? Why take that joy away from the rookie?

Lets say I call a pocket but intend to move another ball, miss the called but make the second. I guess I forfeit my turn. What if the called ball goes in the second ball drops too, putting me dead on the 8ball. Does ball 2 come out or not? Just asking, as these rules in part pushed me away from the game and on to 3C where rules arguments are at a minimum and luck is only apologized for but still rewarded, at all levels, Amateur thru World Cup.

Isn't the game hard enough without call shot rules?
 
I see points from both sides. We had someone running a tourney and didn't want to give spots to low ranked player. Players were leaving because they felt why should I pay the same money for an even race against a much better player. Well as luck for us but not the bar owner. They started getting less and less players showing up. So we took over the tourney and started giving handicaps. We do play BCA 9 ball rules. Call pockets. However the race might be 7-2. We had 18 players but only taking first 16. This is a new bar and the owner was extremely happy. They lower ranked players felt they had a fair chance. Didn't feel they were being robbed. The better players felt they had to bare down. At the end the top players were in the final four. Even with that the lower ranked players said the would be back as they felt they had a fair chance. Now when it was just the top players with even races. Their was no calling pockets. When we mixed player we made it call pockets because of lower ranked players only needing maybe 2-3 games. Any ways. Everyone was happy and I bet we fill the 16 player bracket next week.
 
Sorry. Didn't notice what the races were. So if a low and high ranked player were playing. 2 and 7. What was the race? Think in that instance. It doesnt matter whether you call pockets or not. It is about the race or handicap to the players for them to feel they are being given a fair chance of winning. What I have noticed. Higher ranked players dont care about everyone else. In my case. My wife who probably has played in over a hundred of the no spot, weekly lets have fun tourneys. Maybe has gone 10 times where she didnt go 2 and out. They didnt care. 20 more buckes in the pot. They didnt give a crap about her. However when one of out local pros would try to get into one of our weekly lets have fun tourneys. They would complain and demand he give everyone a spot. Such hypocrites. When they dont feel they are the best player in the room they dont like it.
 
It was rumoured that L. Ron Hubbard had a brief stint teaching pool. His theory for missing balls is because body thetans are interfering. He found his calling as head of Scientology more lucrative than operating an APA league franchise. :grin:

DogsPlayingPool said:
Or maybe L. Ron Hubbard.

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BTW, you have to call your pocket in golf too (so to speak). You can't play to any hole from any tee.;)

If you want to play slop in a game other than 9 Ball, might I suggest 3 cushion.
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I like to watch people play pool. I don't watch the pool. I watch the people. I also like to observe people watching pool.

I can tell you this. The most fun I have always seen on a pool table and the most fun and exciting events I have whitnessed in my 45 year involvement in this game all involve Nine-Ball. I suspect that the free and loose rules have a lot to do with it. I am borrowing rules from Nine-Ball and applying them to Eight-Ball in the hope of injecting some fun into the game.

The intricate details surrounding calling or not calling balls means little to me. I think the frame of mind and reaction of the player and audience is what really matters.
 
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Paul Schofield said:
What I am saying is: There are things that can be done to our game, that require more skill, that actually give an even bigger advantage to the better player, and at the same time make the game more pleasing to everyone. I think that calling balls could be short sighted and could actually hurt our cause. I think Hubbart knew this.

Cause; Make the game more skilled and more fun to play and watch. Get more people involved.
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I saw some kids playing pool. They didn't call a ball.. or a pocket.. or use the cue ball.
The poorest players miscued more than the skilled players.. but they were having fun.
 
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"Pool Battle to the Death".

Paul Schofield said:
fathomblue, You are in a league of your own. There is way too much anger in your posts. This is only pool. We are doing recreation. It would be really great if the Indians win tomorrow. We are rabid Tribe fans around here. Down deep, we realize that it really does not matter. We are just having fun.
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If pool was just for recreation or "fun" then no one would keep score. ;)

I think they should stage a "Pool Battle to the Death".... :eek:

frabz-there-can-be-only-one-4dec11.jpg
 
I am always amazed at the angst this causes.

9-ball has always been a slop game, and for decades was considered "the" major discipline. Yet someone talks about not calling the pocket in 8-ball, its cats and dogs living together.

How often do you see "good" players slopping anything in? It's not like this format would change anything drastically, and if it generates more interest, like Paul is trying to determine, where is the harm? Do any of you "advanced" players that are so offended by the mere thought really think that a dub like me is gonna beat you simply because i can slop something in? If you are truly that much better, it isn't gonna make that much of a difference.

(For the record, I rarely, if ever, slop stuff in during my APA matches, and I'm only a 5. It happens, occasionally, but rarely with players 5 and up.)

It is amusing. Really.
 
Still like to know what the races were. Who cares if you call pockets or not. However if your trying to sell a lower player that he has a better chance in an even race because he doesnt have to call pockets.
 
Paul Schofield said:
Every sport has complex strategies and defined plans and plays. They are allowed to deviate and maybe even get lucky. Just the right amount of [luck] makes for a great sport and entertainment.
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Most posters on AZ get that luck adds spice to any game.
The disagreement is not "should we ban all luck in pool games".
The disagreement is, how much luck is "just the right amount"?

Look at all the ways you can get lucky in 8 ball:

• On the break a ball could kick the CB into a pocket.
• Or freeze up to it and give you no shots at your group (or either group).
• The opponent's miss could leave you hooked and it was unplanned.
• You can get titty hooked, jacked over a ball, no angle, wrong angle, etc.
• Their failed shot blocks a pocket and makes your runout mission impossible
• 8 on the break = instawin in some rulesets.
• Someone's miss flies around the table and smacks in the 8 ball, insta-lose.
• Skid, rolloff, other equipment failures.

and so on.
To me that's more than enough luck to spice up the game and keep it fun.

You say other sports don't have this. Actually they all do.
- In the NBA, only one hoop is permitted. Not "any hoop will do".
- In the NFL, only one endzone is valid for a touchdown.
- One hole isn't as good as any other in golf.
- If you score on your own goalie in soccer, trust me, you don't get credited a point.
The opponent gets the advantage, as they should, because you blatantly screwed up!
 
Btw, we have to call the 9 in our league.

It's been that way for years. We use 99% BCA rules and decided to put it to a players' vote this season, as to whether to keep it "call 9" or go "wild 9" for this season.

It was a solid 65% in favor of remaining "call 9".

Our league is a large majority of beginners and intermediates. There are far less advanced players. I'm an intermediate player, btw.
 
CreeDo said:
Most posters on AZ get that luck adds spice to any game.
The disagreement is not "should we ban all luck in pool games".
The disagreement is, how much luck is "just the right amount"?

Look at all the ways you can get lucky in 8 ball:

• On the break a ball could kick the CB into a pocket.
• Or freeze up to it and give you no shots at your group (or either group).
• The opponent's miss could leave you hooked and it was unplanned.
• You can get titty hooked, jacked over a ball, no angle, wrong angle, etc.
• Their failed shot blocks a pocket and makes your runout mission impossible
• 8 on the break = instawin in some rulesets.
• Someone's miss flies around the table and smacks in the 8 ball, insta-lose.
• Skid, rolloff, other equipment failures.

and so on.
To me that's more than enough luck to spice up the game and keep it fun.

You say other sports don't have this. Actually they all do.
- In the NBA, only one hoop is permitted. Not "any hoop will do".
- In the NFL, only one endzone is valid for a touchdown.
- One hole isn't as good as any other in golf.
- If you score on your own goalie in soccer, trust me, you don't get credited a point.
The opponent gets the advantage, as they should, because you blatantly screwed up!
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Good post, CreeDo. That about sums it up. Unfortunately, the human race has not only forgotten how to be social (i.e. the abhorring face-to-face contact and always-thumbin'-an-electronic-device thing), but they've also forgotten the meaning of the word "moderation." That is, the middle ground, the best of both extremes, etc. I think 8-ball with call shot has enough of the built-in luck as it is.

However, we know how that goes -- it's either "call everything" (as in horsecrap bar/house rules), or "call nothing" (as in what the OP is doing in his poolroom). It's like the two-party system -- welded to the signposts at either extreme.

-Sean
 
justadub said:
I am always amazed at the angst this causes.

9-ball has always been a slop game, and for decades was considered "the" major discipline. Yet someone talks about not calling the pocket in 8-ball, its cats and dogs living together.

How often do you see "good" players slopping anything in? It's not like this format would change anything drastically, and if it generates more interest, like Paul is trying to determine, where is the harm? Do any of you "advanced" players that are so offended by the mere thought really think that a dub like me is gonna beat you simply because i can slop something in? If you are truly that much better, it isn't gonna make that much of a difference.

(For the record, I rarely, if ever, slop stuff in during my APA matches, and I'm only a 5. It happens, occasionally, but rarely with players 5 and up.)

It is amusing. Really.
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I get what you are saying but really, what does going to slop 8 Ball accomplish? Is it the case right now that all the 9 Ball tournaments are getting all this dead money from bangers who have this thought that because it's slop they just might cash? It seems to me that the player that has to resort to luck on this scale is not entering tournaments anyway, and not because of the call shot rule. I might have a better shot at beating a more skilled player at 9 Ball than say 10 Ball, but the call shot rule is not going to determine whether I enter the event or not.

You want to get more players to have a perceived chance and enter an event, the better way is to play alternate break.

As far as casual play goes, casual players can always play by whatever rules they want...and they do.
 
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I think the man had an idea on how to market to the masses and he proved to be very successful. Say what you will, the APA makes money.
 
there's no "lucky kicking" and the strategy's 100 times better than "One Foul"

Ralph Kramden said:
Why keep score if you're playing the skilled game of 'Any One Pocket'?
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"Two Shot Shoot Out" is the best game ever invented because you have to battle for the first shot every time, there's no "lucky kicking" and the strategy's 100 times better than "One Foul" ---- and the best player will ALWAYS WIN!....I'll debate that with any living human and spot them the first "shot". :eek: 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
I am amused at the dissecting, philosophizing, and analyzation going on here. Don't overthink it. I am watching my players have a great time in my weekly events. Larry Hubbart had it right.
 
Paul Schofield said:
Larry never succumbed to the pressure mounted by pool players to call the pocket on solids and stripes in Eight-Ball. Larry was a knowledgeable player and an astute businessman. He understood better than anyone the downfalls (there are a lot of them) of calling balls.

Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized? I can’t think of one. I refer to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area. Those sports and Larry Hubbard must know or have known something that the pool community does not.

I am taking Larry’s approach a step further. I am running weekly Eight-Ball tournaments in my place and we are not calling anything, NOT EVEN THE 8 BALL. It is going very well.
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You can't compare pool to another sport, because pool isn't a sport it's a table game.
Not calling anything? That's ridiculous.
 
YubaCushion said:
You can't compare pool to another sport, because pool isn't a sport it's a table game.
Not calling anything? That's ridiculous.
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I'm just playing along for the sake of the argument (we play called pocket here when we aren't playing league) so tell me why its ok in 9-ball and not in 8-ball....
 
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