Seems fair to me. Dave, there's an old saying that goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Confucius says "when trying to lead a horse to water, one must first see which end of the horse he is leading".
$200 for a billiard university diploma!!
- Thread starter His Boy Elroy
- Start date
Seems fair to me. Dave, there's an old saying that goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Confucius says "when trying to lead a horse to water, one must first see which end of the horse he is leading".
Heck that is less than I would charge him to lay on a couch and talk to me about his mother.
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I nave nothing against the test. it's a terrific test. I don't know how many times I've said that. I have nothing against purchasing a record of accomplishment on this test. What I want to know is; why should someone pay $150 to $200 dollars to receive a record of accomplishment on this test instead of $29.95. It"s a very simple question. Someone explain it to me please.
Why does a Mercedes headlight cost over 400 dollars?
Why is the sky blue?
Why is water wet?
Really !!!!!!! OMG!!!!!
Maybe your buddy the marketing genius English can explain the dynamics of a free market system for you.
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Why is the sky blue?
Why is water wet?
Really !!!!!!! OMG!!!!!
Maybe your buddy the marketing genius English can explain the dynamics of a free market system for you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
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Thanks for the compliment but unlike some I certainly do not think that I am a genius. In fact I know that I am not, but I am intelligent with an above average IQ. (opening for another personal 'attack')
When the accelerator on my Mercedes went out, they wanted to charge me $575.00 to fix it. I fixed it myself with a part that I bought for $1.64 from their parts department & I did it in their parking lot in less than 5 minutes.
I'm sure that some that had the same problem that did not know any better paid the $575.00 & that was certainly their prerogative.
There are many things that are overpriced in the free marketplace just as there are great deals.
In honest marketing & advertising it is about conveying the true value of a product.
Then there is deceptive marketing & advertising where the seller tries to make the product appear better & more valuable than the product really is.
I've had to advise some that a disclaimer would have to be added to certain ads that some wanted to run & when they declined I had to turn down their ad.
Obviously, 'Elroy' thinks the 'diploma' from BU is overpriced just as I saw my accelerator fix as overpriced & that is his prerogative.
He should be able to express that opinion without being insulted, belittled, & made fun of.
If others see the value in it & choose to purchase it, then that is their prerogative.
The market place is what it is. Personally I have no problem with anyone paying whatever they wish for anything. I just like consumers to know for what they are paying.
Honesty is the best policy, at least for the consumer & usually for the seller as well, at least in the long run.
Dr. Dave says the informative explanation of just what a diploma is is there. I'll take him at his word as I have not looked at the whole 'presentation'.
I'll also say that 'Elroy' used a poor choice of words or perhaps left out a qualifying word in how he referred to Dr. Dave.
But... I will also say that he was perhaps pushed or bullied to the point of making that error & not by Dr. Dave.
Naturally some of the above is just my opinion.
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$200 seems like a very reasonable price to pay for the time of a professional to either review the video or witness the exam.
Mr Cantrall,
I'm not trying to argue with you as your statement would certainly seem logical on face value.
However, with all due respect, just what 'professional' is reviewing the video or witnessing the exam?
Some Doctors charge $200 for an office visit. Some Lawyers & even CPAs charge $200 or more an hour.
What 'professional' is involved here?
Please keep in mind that I have already said that I don't care what anyone wants to pay for anything. But... I like the consumer to know for what he or she is paying.
So, again with all due respect, in that vein, what 'professional' services are involved & being paid for here?
Could not my wife, who knows very little about billiards, or my 22 year old son not watch a video with the 'curriculum' of the test before them, verify that the test was completed & scored properly? Could not any student on campus do the same?
Again, with all due respect, are you saying that it takes a degree of some sort to verify these tests?
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
All of the information required to make an informed decision is on the website. It is unfortunate that Elroy, like yourself glossed over it before questioning it.
Many posters including Dr Dave informed Elroy where the info was and how the concept began , but he would hear none of it. That reminds me of yourself when you are presented with something you don't think is valuable. Have you taken the time to read into the details yet? I am sure it would take less of your time than participating in one of the tests. You are always on about an open mind from my perspective you only have an open mind when you agree with someone, or if you never had an argument with someone.
What qualifying word should he have used to make this better in regards to what he called Dr. Dave? Something like I believe you are a ....... Or end it with just my opinion.
Of course you love to use that little out as a way to accept no personal responsibility for what you post. I suppose you think is what Elroy should have done to make it all better?
Was he pushed to it, don't know I am sure you pm him many times a day , ask him. While you are at it see if he understands it all now.
Oh I forgot to add that the above is only my opinion as well.
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Many posters including Dr Dave informed Elroy where the info was and how the concept began , but he would hear none of it. That reminds me of yourself when you are presented with something you don't think is valuable. Have you taken the time to read into the details yet? I am sure it would take less of your time than participating in one of the tests. You are always on about an open mind from my perspective you only have an open mind when you agree with someone, or if you never had an argument with someone.
What qualifying word should he have used to make this better in regards to what he called Dr. Dave? Something like I believe you are a ....... Or end it with just my opinion.
Of course you love to use that little out as a way to accept no personal responsibility for what you post. I suppose you think is what Elroy should have done to make it all better?
Was he pushed to it, don't know I am sure you pm him many times a day , ask him. While you are at it see if he understands it all now.
Oh I forgot to add that the above is only my opinion as well.
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Use a little Imagination
Whoever you are,
Just for a second use just a little imagination.
Lets say for instance other people see value in it and I think they do and the list of Instructors happens to grow and more tests are given. Then more people see how bad their game really is and they work on it, then they take the test again and do better. Now they want to sit for the exam and they print off the materials and take the test and record it.
They do much better but not yet Doctorate level so they work harder. Now they sit for the Doctorate examination and they pass it.
How do you think this is going to make someone feel?
Its going to be awesome. I was able to do the drills, have the fun learning and now I'm among a list of "Gentleman" that are an elite of people world wide that have passed the exam at that level. Man that is some good, good stuff.
We are being afforded an opportunity to be a part of something and because of the Internet and the information age we are a community of people, "Brothers" if you will of people that love Pool and want to do something about making sure people have fun with it, love it and pass it onto others.
$200 dollars? Come on!
If you don't want to be a part of the thing then go to Walmart and buy you a diploma for $5 bucks and run it through your printer and call yourself the Great Guru of Pool, the Savior of the free worlds Mindless Minions Instructor Extraordinare!
Or you could just give it up Man and see that the money is what it takes to make such an enterprise happen. It takes money to do anything and I see the value of it and I see that there is much more going on here than a Diploma. The fact that you do not understand is nothing I have a problem understanding. You seem hell bent on being confrontational for the sake of confrontation. You tout yourself as a player with much experience so why don't you just take the exam and be a part of the club and a part of something much bigger than any one of us. Its so big in fact that you have learned men in standing in approval and all of these men's accomplishments have been note worthy.
Does passing this exam mean absolutely nothing to you?
Do you still not see why it could mean so much to someone else and so much for the game that you say you love? If you love something then $200 has no meaning. Now if it were $500 or a thousand I wouldn't support it myself because it would be out of reach of the Common man not every Common Man but at least some who are willing to do something and well heeled enough to do it. Its going to take a lot of common people to have a positive effect on the sport of Pool and grass roots efforts like this are what it is going to take to give Pool a makeover.
If its the money and $200 is just more than you can stand, I can understand that but your attitude is far beyond what I would have thought your understanding would be.
You flabbergast nearly everyone you talk to with your endless retorts about....Why? Why? Why is it not $29.95?
Its possible you will never understand and I am at complete peace with it. I wish you were.
Are you trying to goad someone into gambling for the $200?
Whoever you are,
Just for a second use just a little imagination.
Lets say for instance other people see value in it and I think they do and the list of Instructors happens to grow and more tests are given. Then more people see how bad their game really is and they work on it, then they take the test again and do better. Now they want to sit for the exam and they print off the materials and take the test and record it.
They do much better but not yet Doctorate level so they work harder. Now they sit for the Doctorate examination and they pass it.
How do you think this is going to make someone feel?
Its going to be awesome. I was able to do the drills, have the fun learning and now I'm among a list of "Gentleman" that are an elite of people world wide that have passed the exam at that level. Man that is some good, good stuff.
We are being afforded an opportunity to be a part of something and because of the Internet and the information age we are a community of people, "Brothers" if you will of people that love Pool and want to do something about making sure people have fun with it, love it and pass it onto others.
$200 dollars? Come on!
If you don't want to be a part of the thing then go to Walmart and buy you a diploma for $5 bucks and run it through your printer and call yourself the Great Guru of Pool, the Savior of the free worlds Mindless Minions Instructor Extraordinare!
Or you could just give it up Man and see that the money is what it takes to make such an enterprise happen. It takes money to do anything and I see the value of it and I see that there is much more going on here than a Diploma. The fact that you do not understand is nothing I have a problem understanding. You seem hell bent on being confrontational for the sake of confrontation. You tout yourself as a player with much experience so why don't you just take the exam and be a part of the club and a part of something much bigger than any one of us. Its so big in fact that you have learned men in standing in approval and all of these men's accomplishments have been note worthy.
Does passing this exam mean absolutely nothing to you?
Do you still not see why it could mean so much to someone else and so much for the game that you say you love? If you love something then $200 has no meaning. Now if it were $500 or a thousand I wouldn't support it myself because it would be out of reach of the Common man not every Common Man but at least some who are willing to do something and well heeled enough to do it. Its going to take a lot of common people to have a positive effect on the sport of Pool and grass roots efforts like this are what it is going to take to give Pool a makeover.
If its the money and $200 is just more than you can stand, I can understand that but your attitude is far beyond what I would have thought your understanding would be.
You flabbergast nearly everyone you talk to with your endless retorts about....Why? Why? Why is it not $29.95?
Its possible you will never understand and I am at complete peace with it. I wish you were.
Are you trying to goad someone into gambling for the $200?
For a diploma application with an online video submittal, the "professional" who reviews the videos is Dr. Randy Russel, the BU Registrar. He has an engineering degree and an MBA, and he is a medical doctor who practices in New Brunswick, Canada. He is also a pool instructor in his spare time, and he is amazingly enthusiastic and passionate about pool and the BU.
For in-person examinations, the "professional" is the BU instructor. If you look at the names on the BU instructor list, I hope you would agree that they deserve to be called "professionals." It is up to each individual BU instructor to decide what they charge for a session with a student; however, I would think they would charge more than $200 for a BU diploma-examination session, because the instructor will probably invest at least 3 hours of their time (including the required accounting and record keeping). And if the student expects any evaluation or instruction before, during, or after the examination process, I would suspect the amount of time required would be longer, which would incur additional cost. People who are pool instructors as their profession need to make a living, and their time is valuable.
Regardless of what type of person you think is required, the BU does require review by either the BU Registrar or a BU Instructor, most of whom are respected "professional" pool instructors (with some also having multiple "professional" degrees).
I think it is ridiculous that I need to do this, but here goes anyway:
The price for a diploma is $200 because:
- It took lots of time, effort, initiative, creativity, and expense to create the BU and the asociated exam materials, website, organization of people, and professionally-designed diplomas.
- It takes time and expense to print the diplomas on a high-quality printer with high-quality paper.
- It takes time and expense to package and ship the diplomas in a protective way.
- It takes time to review the submitted online videos to make sure the results are valid.
- It takes time to process the submittal form that is required with a diploma application.
- It takes time to do the accounting and record-keeping required to process a diploma.
- It takes time and expense to maintain the BU website and the BilliardUniversity.org domain.
- It takes time to post official diploma results on the BU website.
- With a diploma, one receives official recognition of their level of ability on the BU website (with permission). This is of value to some people.
- A diploma can be framed and displayed with pride (e.g., in an office or game room) to show off one's enthusiasm and excellence for this great sport. This is of value to some people.
- A diploma is a credential one can use as the first step to becoming a BU instructor. This is of value to some people. It can also lead to additional income.
- Finally, the BU owners should be rewarded for what they have created for the pool community.
I know it would be easy for you and Elroy to nit-pick and belittle individual items on this list; but taken as a whole, I am totally confident that $200 is a very fair price. In fact, if anything, the price is a bargain.
Please do me a favor and at least watch the short videos and browse through the concise and clear material on the main page and diploma section on the BU website. This might help you and others better understand what is involved. This would certainly take less time than it takes to write some of the posts in this thread.
Sincerely,
Dave
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Dr Dave, you have more patience than I. :thumbup:
I had not taken the time to view the Billiards University web site prior to reading this thread. It has prompted me to do so and I am amazed at the volume of valuable material that is available there for FREE.
The site is so complete and self explanatory that it is hard to imagine how a person could not understand the value of the material or the value of a diploma.
I did take the time to do the fundamentals exam and scored a 61. It was a real eye opener. I see the value of this exam and will be using it for practice. When I do get to the point that I can execute both exams at a doctorate level, I will be very proud. I would be an incredible nit if at that time I was not willing to pay the $200 for the diploma. Considering how the "FREE" material was what allowed me to elevate my game to that level.
Good job Dr Dave and all that contributed to this University. I look forward to joining the ranks of graduates.:thumbup:
Dave,
I took a better look late last night.
Please keep in mind, that I have no particular problem with anyone paying $200 for whatever they wish to purchase unless it is harmful to others, or even themselves in some regards. However, I would prefer that they know just what they are purchasing.
Are you now saying that it requires an MBA & an Engineering Degree & a Medical License to review & verify these video test submissions?
If Mr. Randy Russel cuts my lawn, I'm not paying him any more than the $35 dollars that I would normally pay, just as I did not pay a Mercedes Dealership $575.00 to do what I did for $1.64 & 5 minutes of my time, just so I could say my car was fixed by a "Certified Mercedes Mechanic".
This is where I think 'Elroy'... & I am starting to perhaps go along with him, has a problem.
Basically I am starting to see that the program is being over sold, at least IMO.
I have told you many times that I appreciate all of your effort & all that you have done to promote better play & therefore the game itself.
The test curriculum certainly seems like it would be beneficial to many. What any individual wants to do with it & to what level of participation in the diploma program they want to take it is certainly up the them.
I think 'everyone' protests too much. Take 'Elroy's' perception & my take for what it is. On my part, it is meant to be constructive. Unlike some, you have always seemed to be balanced & rational.
Some advertising/presentations can have a negative effect & be a turn off to a majority of people. I'm sure you've seen some such yourself.
I for one hate to sit through a long presentation of build up before any mention of cost is mentioned. I for one want to know the cost ASAP so I can have it in the back of my mind as I hear the benefits so they can be put on the opposite sides of the scale.
A 'good' sales person gives a potential client what they need to allow them to buy from the sales persons. A 'good' sales person does not want to 'sell' the potential client because a 'good' sale person does not want the client to have buyers remorse a day or two after the agreement to buy & sell.
Let me ask you this. Could a quadriplegic study & take a written version of the test & receive a diploma for their knowledge of how to execute the shots without actually executing them?
To me, the 'University' motif is a bit off based. Some say that the Pros don't even know what they are doing. I very much disagree with that statement. They may not know the science behind what they do, but they know what they are doing.
So, could a young 14 year old earn a diploma with no knowledge of why but just based on the execution proficiency?
I believe I know your answers to these questions, but... perhaps not.
Robin has made some good points as to the potential that the program may foster & that would certainly be a good thing for the game. Although he states that $200 seems reasonable but $500 might be excessive. So cost is a relative matter that many may have an issue with depending on the perception of the value of the item being purchased.
I think it all just needs to be put in perspective.
What if Robin & I get together & compose a series of our own tests & decide to issue doctorate diplomas for $177.77 or a bachelors for $77.77? (Their is reason for those specific prices.) Or what if Tor Lowery, Jimmy Reid, CJ, 'Oyster' or anyone does a similar thing? Is the BU diploma going to be from an 'accredited College' & the others will be from an unaccredited 'School'?
I think if the College motif & Diploma Program were changed to something else, I don't think Elroy would have any problem with it at all, well maybe the cost might still seem high to him.
Is the Diploma Program a tongue in cheek take off on a real college degree or are you & others taking it seriously? I think that is the ambiguity that may have caused Elroy's reaction & perhaps my uncomfortable feeling as to the consumer's clarity of purchase.
All of the above is just for your consideration. I know that there will perhaps be little change made given the time & investment of effort already put in. But...you would be surprised what the smallest of change can make in the perception of the public in both marketing & advertising.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
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Wrong.
I've sold insurance, advertising, sporting goods, surveillance systems & wholesale protein products.
I was speaking from the buyer's end in your TRULY quoted statement.
I have no idea why I am even giving you a response & the minute of my time to do so.
Maybe you are an old stereotyped 'used car salesman' type.
That would make sense to me given your past displays of yourself.
Have a good day.
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A person is interested in Product/Service X, and has a budget of $3,000, but is willing to spend more.
The product or service costs $4,000
Sales Rep A immediately tells the customer the price, and goes into his or her pitch.
Sales Rep B instills a sense of urgency and need for the product or service, and then after that and establishing a rapport, gives the price.
Who do you think has a better chance of making the sale?
Dr. Dave, no need to explain or justify the price of your service/product. You owe those two clowns nothing. The value or fair price point of any service/product is always judged by the overall market, not a few individuals. You could pay people $200 to take your test and there will always be a few that would find reason to ***** and complain about it. That simply says more about their close minded, negative mentality than it does about the product/service. Losers will be losers, haters will just hate.
What kind of psychology propelled you to such kind of hatred is beyond me.
Again, I do not know why I am giving you the time of day but...
Firstly, please TRY to keep in mind as I have already told you ONCE, that I was speaking from a BUYER'S perspective.
Secondly, from the buyers' perspective ASAP does not mean IMMEDIATELY.
Thirdly, URGENCY & PUSHING turn many people off.
Also, a long extraneous build up presentation is usually a sign to many consumers that the product is probably overpriced & therefore needs the build up. You may probably be under estimating the intelligence of your market.
A good sales person gauges the potential client & then tailors the presentation to more comfortably suit the potential client's 'buying' comfort level.
So, again some 'twisting of words' & word substitution to give a false impression.
I would not buy anything from the likes of you unless I absolutely had to have it by need & no one else was selling it.
And lastly, this is off topic in the sense that is only to 'attack' me. Who & how is this intended to help?
Would that be a trolling type effort on your part?
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Pathetic Shark
Banned
Dr Dave - are you willing (or able) to tell us how many people have forked out $200?