bad stroke with hard draw

[Sloppy Pockets]

No. As demonstrated on several ultra-high-speed videos and as predicted by simple physics, the cue stick's speed drops to about 50% of its incoming speed when it hits the cue ball. It then speeds back up to about 80% of its initial speed as the hand -- which is not really involved during tip-to-ball contact -- continues to pull the stick ahead.

On a side note, with draw the cue stick slows down less (as expected for any off-center hit).

Yeah, yeah, I've read all the requisite stuff and have seen all the videos. Kinda hard to do a Google search about billiards physics without running into links to Dr. Dave's site.

I don't doubt any of it, really. I was just trying to bait Creedo into answering so I could launch into a diatribe about the role of the frictional forces in the hand. He was a smart mouse and refused to take the cheese, so.....

Jeez, you just never know when the physics police are watching you.

 

[ronscuba]

......

BTW I don't see how using a soft cradle to hold the cue can do anything but improve a beginner's stroke. I believe the opposite of what you do, that the grip should be loose until lots of experience shows you situations where a firmer grip is required. A firm grip creates tension in the entire body and reduces the feedback you get from the cue to your fingers. This is a feel game, and anything that increases the ability to detect subtle differences in stroke has got to be good for the beginner.

Soft vs. Firm grip. Seems like there is no agreement on which is best or if you should use one on all shots. Even among the pro's and high level instructors.

This reminds me of the theories on golf grip/swing. Golf was a big hobby of mine. I never could devote enough time to become really good, but still played every weekend during the warm seasons. After many years I came to the realization that since I was just a hobbyist, a simple swing with less moving parts was easier to maintain, led to more consistent play and held up better in pressure situations. I switched to a firm (not overly tight) grip which made my swing less "handsy". Consistent grip pressure throughout the golf swing is very important and I found it easier to do with a firm grip. I could do all kinds of things with a soft grip at the practice range, but out on the course, I found myself "re-gripping" or changing grip pressure during the swing.

For myself, this applies to my pool game too. I might do some delicate shots with a light grip, but a firm grip has helped my overall game be more consistent.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I just finished Hank Haney's book on Tiger Woods called 'THE BIG MISS' that is......

O-o-o-ohhh... cheap shot, eh? What, with ENGLISH! gone now you think you're gonna bully me around? Dream on, bruthuh.


This from a dude who is constantly recommending "Zen and the Art of Archery" as something that a pool player ought to read. Lol

FWIW "Five Rings" is considered to be almost mandatory reading for young Japanese businessmen because of it classic strategy in winning conflicts of all kinds.



And here I thought this was your secret to becoming "one of the greatest money players of all time". Maybe it's time you bought a copy.

I think I get the difference between guys like you and guys like me. You walk around in life with your fists cocked all the time, and mine are relaxed until the moment I need to cock them.

I have the book and it's good, but I don't consider it "life inspiring" in any way, shape or form - 'Zen in the Art of Archery' and 'Zen in the Martial Arts' did inspire parts of my overall pocket billiards game. 'The Inner Game of Tennis' is also high on my list of books on the mental side of pool. I just finished Hank Haney's book on Tiger Woods called 'THE BIG MISS' that is now one of my all time favorites. It tells of Tiger's inner struggles that make him who he is and led to him being the greatest athlete of all time.

A firmer grip makes your hand more a part of the cue, and thus gives your brain more sensory feedback......not for everyone, just from my own personal experience and other top level players that I have related to in the past.

If someone was to make a machine to shoot pool would they connect the cue to the "hand" loosely or firmly? The chain breaks at the weakest link and the cue/hand connection is the link to the game of pool.....I suggest that everyone experiment with different grip pressures and see for themselves that firmer is better in many cases.

"The Game is My Teacher'

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I have the book and it's good, but I don't consider it "life inspiring" in any way, shape or form - 'Zen in the Art of Archery' and 'did inspire parts of my overall pocket billiards game. 'The Inner Game of Tennis' is also high on my list of books on the mental side of pool.

Fair enough. I'll admit, it's not particularly engaging reading, and it's no more an actual fencing manual than "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is an actual repair manual for bikes.

I loved both "Zen in the Art of Archery" and Joe Hyams' book as well. I bought "The Inner Game" back when it first came out and it's probably stuck in a box somewhere with 17 other banana boxes full of books I still haven't unpacked from when we moved here two years ago. I doubt I'll ever play tennis again, but it is still a great book on the mental side of sports if I remember correctly. If I find it I'll give it a go again.

I don't think the grip thing will ever be resolved. FWIW I really did give your "cocked-wrist" grip a fair try because the results are so impressive in your case. I can shoot OK with it, no better or worse than I do with my normal grip, but it just feels too restricted to me. And I for one can't feel the feedback from the cue as well. Perhaps the nerve endings in my fingers are just more sensitive than yours are. Who really knows, maybe I missed my true calling as a safe cracker.

Whatever way we go, we first and foremost need to be in tune with our individual anatomies if we are to extract optimal performance from them. Tall vs. short. Fat vs. skinny. Strong vs. weak. Fast twitch vs. slow twitch. Eagle-eyed vs. half blind. We are all unique, and we should have a mind-body relationship that connects our game with our own physique.

"The Body Is The Coach"

 

[CreeDo]

Yeah, yeah, I've read all the requisite stuff and have seen all the videos. Kinda hard to do a Google search about billiards physics without running into links to Dr. Dave's site.

I don't doubt any of it, really. I was just trying to bait Creedo into answering so I could launch into a diatribe about the role of the frictional forces in the hand. He was a smart mouse and refused to take the cheese, so.....

Jeez, you just never know when the physics police are watching you.

I'm glad bob answered it because I almost did. I had to stop and think.

"Well, I never actually TRIED to keep the hand 100% loose. Maybe the stick doesn't fly away??

Then I would have gone to the pool room and impaled someone and ruined my ghetto brunswick cue.

 

[CJ Wiley]

That's a fair assessment

Fair enough. I'll admit, it's not particularly engaging reading, and it's no more an actual fencing manual than "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is an actual repair manual for bikes.

I loved both "Zen in the Art of Archery" and Joe Hyams' book as well. I bought "The Inner Game" back when it first came out and it's probably stuck in a box somewhere with 17 other banana boxes full of books I still haven't unpacked from when we moved here two years ago. I doubt I'll ever play tennis again, but it is still a great book on the mental side of sports if I remember correctly. If I find it I'll give it a go again.

I don't think the grip thing will ever be resolved. FWIW I really did give your "cocked-wrist" grip a fair try because the results are so impressive in your case. I can shoot OK with it, no better or worse than I do with my normal grip, but it just feels too restricted to me. And I for one can't feel the feedback from the cue as well. Perhaps the nerve endings in my fingers are just more sensitive than yours are. Who really knows, maybe I missed my true calling as a safe cracker.

Whatever way we go, we first and foremost need to be in tune with our individual anatomies if we are to extract optimal performance from them. Tall vs. short. Fat vs. skinny. Strong vs. weak. Fast twitch vs. slow twitch. Eagle-eyed vs. half blind. We are all unique, and we should have a mind-body relationship that connects our game with our own physique.

"The Body Is The Coach"

That's a fair assessment and it does come down to personal preference, I'd just urge anyone reading to experiment before deciding on the one that's best for you......"contempt prior to investigation" is not a good strategy when it comes to grip fundamentals......somethings we will surprise ourselves when we try something new, I know I have many times over the years.

Play Well, S.P. 'The Game is Our Teacher'

 

[mantis99]

I have had this same problem. For me, the most important thing is starting the forward part of my stroke in a controlled and relaxed manner. If I try to accelerate too aggressively, I will over grip my cue and engage my shoulder muscles often causing significant steering of the cue and a drop of my tip. SimPly try to accelerate smoothly and I think you will find it works much better. Don't practice while trying to draw the cb back. Just stroke the ball straight into the pocket using back spin. If you shoot an actual ball looking for draw, your tendency will be to over do the actual shot. Kind of like in golf where your practice swings are great but you overseeing when actually hitting the shot. Do this with a slow, medium and hard stroke over and over again until it is second nature.