bad stroke with hard draw

[CJ Wiley]

Feel the tip controlled {precisely} in your hand while writing the imaginary letters

Do you think holding it a little firmer might help? I grip loose and it seems like right before the tip makes contact I might be tensing up.

I know using a loose grip is "commonly taught" and it does help to overcome other bad technical issues to have a loose grip. In other words you can re direct the cue with a loose grip if you are fundamentally addressing the cue ball incorrectly. I actually see this quite a bit with players that get to a level "5-7" and hit an "improvement wall" and can't figure out why (on their own).

I highly recommend experimenting with your grip pressure and keep it more consistent. A good way to test it is to hold your cue with your regular grip and put the tip out in front of you and write your own name in the air...... - Feel the tip controlled {precisely} in your hand while writing the imaginary letters and "real eyes" that controlling that tip is VERY essential to playing at your highest level.

When your game gets better and better you can still experiment with the pressure and perhaps lesson it over time......or not, it depends on your personality more than anything. If you're strong and aggressive you'll hold it different than someone that's weak and defensive, it's that simple in most cases although it can be a combination of many other factors. I certainly can't tell someone how they "feel" the best....it's entirely up to them.

Someone like Earl Strickland uses a firmer grip while someone like John S. chooses to use a softer one (although I imagine he still controls the cue well in his fingers). Different type shots also require a different grip pressure, the finesse shots will lean toward soft and the more demanding shots will lean towards firm.....this is my "rule of thumb," but not for everyone.

My suggestion is to experiment and don't just do what someone tells you because many "players" will say a "loose grip" is best and most of them don't play well under pressure..... this may be one of the reasons, I certainly believe it's possible. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Dunnn51]

Sounds like you are tensing up for the hard draw shot. Tense muscles are weak muscles.
Just put a little more snap in your wrist going forward.And don't tense up.Stay loose.

Ding ,ding !! Measureman has got it right.

I just might want to add to lighten up your already light grip pressure. That makes the wrist action easy. Works every time ! Too often, (perhaps even subconsciously), we tend to tense up for long draw when the exact opposite needs to be done.

What CJ said ! (sry didn't scroll down this time !)

 

[backplaying]

Got the same problem. Tensing up in anticipation of the shot leads to all kinds of problems: not standing still, twisting the wrist, not being loose and relaxed in the grip, hitting the wrong part of the CB etc. etc.
I have found that the only way to fix this is to rework my draw shot.
I`m far from perfect, but now i have more controll of the draw shot, the way i went about it was:
1. Focusing on standing still.
2. Staying down after the shot.
3. Using a tighter loop with my finger, so the cue has less movement, gloves solves friction issues.
4. Focusing on shooting smooth with a good follow through with proper acceleration.
5. Constantly focusing on acceleration as opposed to power.

Now i can draw pretty consistently across the table with not too much effort.

My draw problems stem from when i started to play pool, the fact that it`s called a draw shot made something in my head think that a good draw shot had anything to do with how fast you pull the cue back!
That stuck with me for a long time, sure i early on understood that it was the follow through that was the key, but i still kept that stupid jerking back wich i for some reason connected with the word draw...

I agree with all five.

 

[naji]

Got the same problem. Tensing up in anticipation of the shot leads to all kinds of problems: not standing still, twisting the wrist, not being loose and relaxed in the grip, hitting the wrong part of the CB etc. etc.
I have found that the only way to fix this is to rework my draw shot.
I`m far from perfect, but now i have more controll of the draw shot, the way i went about it was:
1. Focusing on standing still.
2. Staying down after the shot.
3. Using a tighter loop with my finger, so the cue has less movement, gloves solves friction issues.
4. Focusing on shooting smooth with a good follow through with proper acceleration.
5. Constantly focusing on acceleration as opposed to power.

Now i can draw pretty consistently across the table with not too much effort.

My draw problems stem from when i started to play pool, the fact that it`s called a draw shot made something in my head think that a good draw shot had anything to do with how fast you pull the cue back!
That stuck with me for a long time, sure i early on understood that it was the follow through that was the key, but i still kept that stupid jerking back wich i for some reason connected with the word draw...

I agree with you, all your items above except 3 can be automatically accomplished by just complete following through; it is impossible to lift your head, or accelerate if you follow through. Item 3 IMO should be open bridge to enable tip to go low without elevation, and will help on high speed shots. The lower the tip the less speed you have to hit

 

[Dunnn51]

Draw "Fundamentals" (My View)

I've often seen people refer to "faster" not "harder".

Can anyone tell me the difference between "faster" and "harder"? I assume we're talking about the stroke speed, if not please advise.

Are we talking about apples and oranges when we say "faster not harder"?

I would really love to hear what everyone thinks about these two words. I know Tramp will be coming in with some doozies but I'm looking for a little more serious responses.


Thanks,
JoeyA

Lets break it down:

However you get there,.... (ie grip pressure, wrist roll, etc.) you need 4 basic things for good draw onna table.

1- A relentlessly accurate (straight) stroke preferably 15 inches or more.
2- A verry good sense of (cue) speed for the desired shot. (my weakness BTW)
3- A "rock-steady" wrist (however you get there) just after the "snap" of the wrist which occurs just prior to CB contact. ANY misalignment will generate spin and it will be magnified due to the cuespeed and the fact that the CB wants to travel back toward you but can't.
4- A smooth follow-thru That wrist can't budge!! (note: If followthru overpowers the snap, then the spin effect will be greatly diminished or lost; hence loss of draw.)
all are important , but #4 is usually the killer as it requires A LOT of PRACTICE!

Just my observations. :wink:

I saved the crayons for the Trampster ! :grin-square:

 

[Ratta]

I've always felt it's the same thing. In my recent lesson Ralph Eckert said something like
"so you want to break harder... which means you want to break faster..." (something close to that).

The cue ball only knows how many mph the tip hit the contact point.
It doesn't know how much work, grunting and straining it took to get there.

But sometimes using a different word can change how a student hears and executes a suggestion.
Like "Swing harder" might not work for them but "swing faster" might cause them to swing significantly harder,
because it causes them to focus on the correct thing (getting the tip front point A to point B as soon as possible)
rather than the wrong thing (strain your arm and chest muscles as much as you can).

Sort of like how you can explain a jump shot a lot of different ways to people and one of them just clicks.

Well said- and VERY true

Hope you enjoyed your time with Ralph. Ralph is a wonderful teacher with a ton of expirience! I m sure you had a fantastic expirience with him where you will benefit from for sure!

hope you re doing good buddy,

lg
Ingo

 

[West Point 1987]

Boxers are usually trained the same way. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by tightening the fists until the very instant of impact, and it will slow you down guaranteed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZ4fL1pSRQ

Take it from Manny and keep the fists relaxed if you want to achieve blinding hand speed.

Not true...I boxed all four years in college and a little after. The only time you see boxers throwing punches with loose hands is when they're shadow boxing and working on speeding up their combinations for coordination/muscle memory and cardio. Once you've taped up and put on gloves, it's difficult to move your hands out of a firm grip--by design. If you wait until just prior to contact to tighten your fist, and your opponent leans in, you break your hand. Guaranteed. Power is focused through the inward twisting of the punch, aligning the bones and muscles from the rear foot up through the torso, shoulders, forearm and hand as the hand comes forward toward the target. There's an acceleration ("snapping") in the process in the last 6 or so inches and the punch has it's most effect in that "sweet spot". That's why you see a lot of shots connect with little effect, because the opponenet leans in to receive the punch before the acceleration and the power is focused yet. That's also why you see a lot of guys with slow wheels stand as close as possible, taking a lot of heat, but better than getting nailed with a perfectly measured/timed shot. Most of your punches that do land do so short of that sweet spot...it's really hard for even top pro boxers to land them all the time, so loose hands are NEVER a good idea in boxing.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's also one of the secrets to the pool break as well.

Not true...I boxed all four years in college and a little after. The only time you see boxers throwing punches with loose hands is when they're shadow boxing and working on speeding up their combinations for coordination/muscle memory and cardio. Once you've taped up and put on gloves, it's difficult to move your hands out of a firm grip--by design. If you wait until just prior to contact to tighten your fist, and your opponent leans in, you break your hand. Guaranteed. Power is focused through the inward twisting of the punch, aligning the bones and muscles from the rear foot up through the torso, shoulders, forearm and hand as the hand comes forward toward the target. There's an acceleration ("snapping") in the process in the last 6 or so inches and the punch has it's most effect in that "sweet spot". That's why you see a lot of shots connect with little effect, because the opponenet leans in to receive the punch before the acceleration and the power is focused yet. That's also why you see a lot of guys with slow wheels stand as close as possible, taking a lot of heat, but better than getting nailed with a perfectly measured/timed shot. Most of your punches that do land do so short of that sweet spot...it's really hard for even top pro boxers to land them all the time, so loose hands are NEVER a good idea in boxing.

I agree with this assessment, boxers, when taped up are forced to have firmness in the hands and wrists. Martial artists, when breaking, also create this type of coil and torque in the final inches..... it's also one of the secrets to the pool break as well.

It seems to be common for people that don't compete to think that competitors are relaxed and loose. While this may be possible when playing for enjoyment or in pressureless situations, it's not true in the "real world" of competition. Springs create a lot of power and they're far from "loose and relaxed," as you pointed out in the above boxing analogy, that type of power comes from COIL, or as you put it above:

"Power is focused through the inward twisting of the punch, aligning the bones and muscles from the rear foot up through the torso, shoulders, forearm and hand as the hand comes forward toward the target. There's an acceleration ("snapping") in the process in the last 6 or so inches and the punch has it's most effect in that "sweet spot". - West Point 1987


Of course there's always exceptions, but from my experience it's desirable to feel tension and "coil" in the stroke. While it may look and feel "better" to have a loose arm, shoulder and wrist it will tend to misfire when the "heat" gets turned up in the pressure department.

I recommend feeling firm and controlled in the stance, stroke and grip pressure to play at optimum levels. Then, once you've proven to yourself (and opponents) that you can handle the pressure and win in tough situations you can experiment with lowering the tension over the test of time. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The only time you see boxers throwing punches with loose hands is when they're shadow boxing and working on speeding up their combinations for coordination/muscle memory and cardio.

The words in bold in the above quote are what I was alluding to when I said boxers train that way. I was not talking about throwing a left hook to the head with a loose fist in an actual fight. That's why I showed the link to Manny shadow boxing, so you could see how his loose hands help him develop his speed. Now, I'd say it's debatable exactly when he actually tightens up his fists during a punch, but I doubt he spends 12 rounds squeezing his fists tightly inside his wraps. That kind of constant isometric contraction would quickly deplete the available energy in his arms.

Besides, we aren't trying to punch the cue through a wall, we are attempting to accelerate it smoothly in a perfectly straight line. We can't vary the cue weight while we are playing, but we can vary the speed of the stroke. It is always the mass of the cue and the final velocity that determines the work done by the stroke. We can't lean our body mass into the cue to achieve more force like you can with a punch. Gripping the cue tightly can only lead to bad things IMHO, and will certainly to some degree restrict the kind of final wrist motion that finishes off a well-executed stroke.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I'm impressed, but I still don't agree - I have a best friend here that's an expert in Kali Fighting Sticks and their grip is definitely tight except when spinning in exhibitions (this is with an open hand, but just for show and it's much easier to do). To each their own.

Hitting something with a loose fist is not a good idea, unless someone's had "Iron Palm" training, and then it's still not recommended unless you're not hitting anything. There's certainly many different techniques and if someone wants to hold their cue or "stick" loose that's their preference (of course). Personally I even hold my fork firm when I'm eating and toothbrush firm when brushing....so naturally it's consistent with golf, tennis, martial arts, and pool.

CJ I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a martial arts debate, but let me clarify a few things because I feel they relate to the pool stroke.

When I say the stick is "floating" in the hand I don't mean it is flopping around. Although I don't clench my fist down hard on the stick, it would be practically impossible to reach out and yank it from my hand by surprise. There is a light firmness that is always present or the stick would be incapable of parrying a blow. My pool cue grip is nearly identical to the way I hold a kali stick, even though the motion is entirely different. The fingers are wrapped around the stick with all of them in contact with the stick, but only the middle finger has any tension in it.


If you're into martial arts as much as I am, I'm sure you read Miyamoto Musashi's "A Book of Five Rings" many times. This is what the greatest swordsman in history had to say about holding the katana (from "The Water Book"):

Holding the Long Sword

"Grip the long sword with a rather floating feeling in the thumb and forefinger, with the middle finger neither tight nor slack, and with the last two fingers tight. It is bad to have play in you hands."

and

"Generally, I dislike fixedness in both long swords and hands. Fixedness means a dead hand. Pliability is a living hand."

Sword wielding aside, a lot of folks don't realize that the middle finger provides roughly 35% of the grip strength, making it the strongest finger besides the thumb. I hold a fly rod the same way, with a floating feeling as the rod pivots between the web of the thumb and the joint of the middle finger. I even play the fiddle with the bow resting in the cradle of the thumb and the middle finger. It is the most natural pivot point in the hand for most activities.

 

[CreeDo]

This is all just a metric shit-ton of apples and oranges lol.
Any physical parallels between pool and whatever are mostly coincidental.

There are specific reasons for everything that's "good" or "bad" in each sport.
Understand the physics and you will be able to easily figure out what comparisons make sense
and which ones don't apply.

For example, why do people say keep a loose wrist and loose grip for the break?
There's an actual physical reason, it's not just some mushy "feel" thing.
If the wrist is locked and the fingers are too, when your forearm swings in an arc, the stick will as well.
Bringing back your forearm with a tight grip would point the stick at the floor. But the table's in the way
so that can't happen. So either the wrist or the fingers have to give.

So we know at some point on many power shots, the fingers and wrist are loose.
The question now becomes, do you tighten them back up?
If so, what's the PHYSICAL reason and result you're looking for?
Is tightening maybe optional? Obviously there must be some or your stick
launches out of your hand.

But aside from preventing the cue from spearing someone in the head,
why do we need to tighten more than that?

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Is tightening maybe optional? Obviously there must be some or your stick launches out of your hand.

I'm not trying to be a wise ass, but why would it do that? Doesn't the CB stop it almost in its tracks?

 

[Mikjary]

I think you guys are all saying the same thing. There's a difference between an athletic "looseness" for speed and a relaxed posture in all sports/games. The fast and loose translates into speed and power at the contact point in the swing or strike.

When I spar, I use a soft, open handed punch that I tighten at the point of impact. In competition my hands stay in a clenched, but not tense position. This allows more impact when I make contact, but not really tight which would slow down my strikes.

In the baseball swing you see the pros lose the bat when they swing and miss. This is the same idea where the muscles all contribute to generate a powerful stroke. They're all loose to develop speed and "tighten" at contact.

When I say I grip the cue loosely, it's still fairly firm. My other muscle groups are relaxed which gives me the impression of looseness.

Best,
Mike

 

[pfduser]

I've played with a somewhat loose grip all my life with decent success. Two months ago in a practice session I started playing around with my grip from loose to firm. I couldn't believe how well I played with the firm grip! Shot making was easy and I felt like I could run the set out! Which I almost did. I'll never go back to the loose grip.

 

[CJ Wiley]

There are very few Champions that don't continue to improve their hand/wrist action

This is all just a metric shit-ton of apples and oranges lol.
Any physical parallels between pool and whatever are mostly coincidental.

There are specific reasons for everything that's "good" or "bad" in each sport.
Understand the physics and you will be able to easily figure out what comparisons make sense
and which ones don't apply.

For example, why do people say keep a loose wrist and loose grip for the break?
There's an actual physical reason, it's not just some mushy "feel" thing.
If the wrist is locked and the fingers are too, when your forearm swings in an arc, the stick will as well.
Bringing back your forearm with a tight grip would point the stick at the floor. But the table's in the way
so that can't happen. So either the wrist or the fingers have to give.

So we know at some point on many power shots, the fingers and wrist are loose.
The question now becomes, do you tighten them back up?
If so, what's the PHYSICAL reason and result you're looking for?
Is tightening maybe optional? Obviously there must be some or your stick
launches out of your hand.

But aside from preventing the cue from spearing someone in the head,
why do we need to tighten more than that?

Wade Crane had one of the most powerful breaks in the history of the game and held the cue like he was going to crush it. I'm sure there's a few of you out there that shook hands with Wade "Billy Johnson" Crane and could tell that he was a very powerful man. When he broke the balls it would "wake the dead".....many of you know the sound I'm referring to, and watch videos and you can see his power came from his hand/wrist.

Am I saying the fact that Wade was powerful in the hands was one of the primary reasons his break was so devastating? ......Yes, I certainly Am. He didn't have any wild follow through, it was very controlled, almost like a regular type shot.

Hand strength in sports has been a great advantage, so if you have it you should not hesitate to use it. Whenever I'm trying to peak out I'll ALWAYS go through hand strengthening exercises and so do many professional athletes.....it's certainly an advantage.

I also "real eyes" that there are many players that use a soft grip although I would NEVER recommend it for a beginner to intermediate player because it can lead to developing bad habits by allowing the player to "Re Direct" the cue instead of learning the correct fundamental stroke and wrist/hand action.

There are very few Champions that don't continue to improve their hand action in their game (throughout their careers)....this is true in tennis and golf as well, Tiger Woods is a great example. 'The Game is Our Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

.that would actually be comical.

[QUOTE]If you're into martial arts as much as I am, I'm sure you read Miyamoto Musashi's "A Book of Five Rings" many times. This is what the greatest swordsman in history had to say about holding the katana (from "The Water Book"):
[/QUOTE]


That's like me telling someone "if you're into pool as much as I am, I'm sure you've read Willie Mosconi's (Jimmy Caras') book many times".......that would actually be comical.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Straightpool_99]

-................

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

That's like me telling someone "if you're into pool as much as I am, I'm sure you've read Willie Mosconi's (Jimmy Caras') book many times".......that would actually be comical.

O-o-o-ohhh... cheap shot, eh? What, with ENGLISH! gone now you think you're gonna bully me around? Dream on, bruthuh.


This from a dude who is constantly recommending "Zen and the Art of Archery" as something that a pool player ought to read. Lol

FWIW "Five Rings" is considered to be almost mandatory reading for young Japanese businessmen because of it classic strategy in winning conflicts of all kinds.

Used for centuries by Japanese businessmen and studied by many of Silicone Valley's warriors of today's wired world, The Book of Five Rings by samurai swordsman Miyamoto Musashi has provided a powerful, practical approach to achieving competitive dominance. Now, in The Book of Five Rings for Executives , Donald Krause has enriched and simplified the original material of this ancient classic of competitive tactics and strategy into a set of seven clearly defined and easily applied business principles.

And here I thought this was your secret to becoming "one of the greatest money players of all time". Maybe it's time you bought a copy.

I think I get the difference between guys like you and guys like me. You walk around in life with your fists cocked all the time, and mine are relaxed until the moment I need to cock them.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm not trying to be a wise ass, but why would it do that? Doesn't the CB stop it almost in its tracks?

No. As demonstrated on several ultra-high-speed videos and as predicted by simple physics, the cue stick's speed drops to about 50% of its incoming speed when it hits the cue ball. It then speeds back up to about 80% of its initial speed as the hand -- which is not really involved during tip-to-ball contact -- continues to pull the stick ahead.

On a side note, with draw the cue stick slows down less (as expected for any off-center hit).

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Wade Crane had one of the most powerful breaks in the history of the game and held the cue like he was going to crush it. I'm sure there's a few of you out there that shook hands with Wade "Billy Johnson" Crane and could tell that he was a very powerful man. When he broke the balls it would "wake the dead".....many of you know the sound I'm referring to, and watch videos and you can see his power came from his hand/wrist.

Am I saying the fact that Wade was powerful in the hands was one of the primary reasons his break was so devastating? ......Yes, I certainly Am. He didn't have any wild follow through, it was very controlled, almost like a regular type shot.

Hand strength in sports has been a great advantage, so if you have it you should not hesitate to use it. Whenever I'm trying to peak out I'll ALWAYS go through hand strengthening exercises and so do many professional athletes.....it's certainly an advantage.

I also "real eyes" that there are many players that use a soft grip although I would NEVER recommend it for a beginner to intermediate player because it can lead to developing bad habits by allowing the player to "Re Direct" the cue instead of learning the correct fundamental stroke and wrist/hand action.

There are very few Champions that don't continue to improve their hand action in their game (throughout their careers)....this is true in tennis and golf as well, Tiger Woods is a great example. 'The Game is Our Teacher'

Yeah, I noticed how powerful little Sarah Rousey's grip is when I shook hands with her at SBE this spring. What mitts! She practically crushed my knuckles. :grin-square:

Anybody ever measure Wade's break speed? Mike Dechaine's break has been clocked at 37 MPH, and he has pudgy little hands that look like they could hardly crack an egg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy_vt_M5X48

I think there is something to be said for having superior technique.

BTW I don't see how using a soft cradle to hold the cue can do anything but improve a beginner's stroke. I believe the opposite of what you do, that the grip should be loose until lots of experience shows you situations where a firmer grip is required. A firm grip creates tension in the entire body and reduces the feedback you get from the cue to your fingers. This is a feel game, and anything that increases the ability to detect subtle differences in stroke has got to be good for the beginner.