Cue ball in rack question

[AtLarge]

In that situation where the last ball and cue ball are both in the rack if the last ball went on the head spot and cue ball was ball in hand in the kitchen that would certainly change the game a lot. Folks would be setting up for that scenario all of the time. You would be spending a lot of time perfecting that break shot because you could, if you are a good player, set yourself up for that shot evertime. Imagine how differently the game would be played.

I'm not so sure that would change things much. That break shot, whether played into a side pocket or a corner pocket, is a lot more difficult than many standard break shots -- so it would be more like a last resort for me than something I really wanted.

Another way it could have been done when both the last ball and the CB are in the rack is to put the OB on the center spot and have CB in hand in the kitchen. I wouldn't be real fond of that one either, compared with the more standard break shots.

But both of those approaches would at least give a chance to keep the inning going (not that I'd favor that over the current rule).

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm curious if there is a reason as to why the disparity in procedures depending on where the cue ball is when the OB is in the rack. ...

I don't know of anything written about why the various racking cases were treated as they were. I'm afraid we have no responsible person to ask directly since the rules were written about 1914. There might be something in the billiard magazines and newspaper columns of the time.

Maybe the idea was that "both in the rack" is too easy to get to, and any standard position for the balls would lead to repetitive patterns. For example, OB on head spot, CB on center spot leaves a 45-degree cut and a 2-cushion break.

Reverse the two balls and there are several plays.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The thing that makes me wonder about that reasoning though is that I'd think it is almost always easier to leave just the OB in the rack area than both the OB and the CB. And perhaps one solution that would not make it something often played for deliberately would have been to have the CB on the center spot and the OB on the head spot, instead of the other way around. Then you wouldn't have that "bail-out" 45 degree cut with 2 rails into the stack for a break shot.

I can definitely see though why the rules wouldn't give you CB on head spot and OB on center spot when both are in the rack. That would be too easy. To get the OB placed on the center spot you have to execute a position play to place the CB where it would interfere with placing the OB on the head spot. So this usually takes more skill and precision (less margin of error) than leaving the CB in the rack.

Interesting discussion.

 

[AtLarge]

... I can definitely see though why the rules wouldn't give you CB on head spot and OB on center spot when both are in the rack. That would be too easy. ...

Not so easy for me. While it's only about a 30° cut, the OB is more than 4 ½ feet from the pocket and the CB has to run quite a way and fairly precisely to hit the rack in a good place. Pretty easy for Hohmann, perhaps.

There was a league years ago where the Director changed the rule in this situation (15th ball and CB in the rack) to put the OB on the center spot and the CB in hand behind the line -- to give the possibility of keeping a run going. Of course, the players weren't pros.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Not so easy for me. While it's only about a 30° cut, the OB is more than 4 ½ feet from the pocket and the CB has to run quite a way and fairly precisely to hit the rack in a good place. Pretty easy for Hohmann, perhaps.

There was a league years ago where the Director changed the rule in this situation (15th ball and CB in the rack) to put the OB on the center spot and the CB in hand behind the line -- to give the possibility of keeping a run going. Of course, the players weren't pros.

Well, not too easy for me either, LOL, Just that it is more than I was expecting as a remedy. The thing that brought the whole topic to my mind was that when I looked at the racking situations, both balls in the rack is the only situation (aside from having pocketed the 15th ball) that leaves the player with no shot and no safety without disturbing the rack, short of taking a foul. This, of course, assumes you don't dog it and leave the rack between you and the object ball, but then it's your own fault that you have no shot. So it seems like the most penal situation and I'm not sure why that should be. Perhaps the answer is that this is simply the rule so if you can't manage to keep at least one of the balls out of the rack area, you deserve it.

 

[dmgwalsh]

here's the full WPA rule 4.8 (d):
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

so there is no ambiguity in the rules for Bob Jewett's question: the spot is on the head string by geometric definition, so the first clause applies. the second clause only applies if the OB is *behind* the head string and blocking the spot.

it's BIH behind the head string.

However, the chart that is part of the rule defines "on the head spot" as interfering with spotting a ball on the head spot. http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=117&pagetype=rules#4.8.

Using that definition, anytime a ball is touching the head spot, it is on the head spot. It remains in place and the other ball goes to the center spot.

 

[wigglybridge]

interesting, Dennis; so it depends upon which part of section 4.8 you follow.

the chart contradicts the procedural logic stated in the textual rules above. further, it would over-ride 4.8(d) even for a ball that was clearly Forward of the head string if (and Only if) that ball also overlaps the spot. and "overlaps the spot" is defined by the shadow of a ball placed on the spot, meaning a ball more than an inch forward of the line could be ineligible to shoot from behind the line. bizarre.

so if the chart which clarifies the rules above instead conflicts with them, which takes precedence?

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

However, the chart that is part of the rule defines "on the head spot" as interfering with spotting a ball on the head spot. http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=117&pagetype=rules#4.8.

Using that definition, anytime a ball is touching the head spot, it is on the head spot. It remains in place and the other ball goes to the center spot.

Dennis, after rereading 4.8(d) carefully it seems to me the cue ball would only go on the center spot if the OB is BOTH in the kitchen AND interferes with placing the cue ball on the head spot.

Pay particular attention to the punctuation:

4.8(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

There are two conditions discussed - the first where the OB is not in the kitchen and the second where the OB is in the kitchen. Notice that the first condition, where the OB is in front of the head string, is separated from the rest of the sentence by a semicolon. Everything after the semicolon (the part about the object ball in the kitchen and treatment if it is in the head spot area) goes together as only commas are used. So the part about CB center spot placement only applies to the 2nd condition of the OB being behind the head string, at least the way I read it.

The text has to override the chart since it is the more detailed explanation of the rule. The chart is simply there for reference purposes, a cheat sheet if you will.

 

[AtLarge]

Not so easy for me. While it's only about a 30° cut, the OB is more than 4 ½ feet from the pocket and the CB has to run quite a way and fairly precisely to hit the rack in a good place. Pretty easy for Hohmann, perhaps. ...

I tried the break shot many times today with OB on the center spot and CB on the head spot, trying to go two rails with the CB into the back of the rack. The majority of the times when I made the OB and hit the shot with enough speed to knock some balls out of the rack, the CB actually missed the rack entirely, running fairly closely past the corner ball on the side where the OB was pocketed.

This confirmed what I suspected -- that shot is not so easy (for me) as a break shot and would not be something I would really want to play for in a game (if that were the rule).

 

[NYC cue dude]

Only because

I tried the break shot many times today with OB on the center spot and CB on the head spot, trying to go two rails with the CB into the back of the rack. The majority of the times when I made the OB and hit the shot with enough speed to knock some balls out of the rack, the CB actually missed the rack entirely, running fairly closely past the corner ball on the side where the OB was pocketed.

This confirmed what I suspected -- that shot is not so easy (for me) as a break shot and would not be something I would really want to play for in a game (if that were the rule).

Only because you didn't play the object ball off the last 2 corner balls of the stack. try it some time. It's a 50/50 proposition, in my book. And to play it really depends on the the speed of your opponent.

 

[dmgwalsh]

Dennis, after rereading 4.8(d) carefully it seems to me the cue ball would only go on the center spot if the OB is BOTH in the kitchen AND interferes with placing the cue ball on the head spot.

Pay particular attention to the punctuation:



There are two conditions discussed - the first where the OB is not in the kitchen and the second where the OB is in the kitchen. Notice that the first condition, where the OB is in front of the head string, is separated from the rest of the sentence by a semicolon. Everything after the semicolon (the part about the object ball in the kitchen and treatment if it is in the head spot area) goes together as only commas are used. So the part about CB center spot placement only applies to the 2nd condition of the OB being behind the head string, at least the way I read it.

The text has to override the chart since it is the more detailed explanation of the rule. The chart is simply there for reference purposes, a cheat sheet if you will.

interesting, Dennis; so it depends upon which part of section 4.8 you follow.

the chart contradicts the procedural logic stated in the textual rules above. further, it would over-ride 4.8(d) even for a ball that was clearly Forward of the head string if (and Only if) that ball also overlaps the spot. and "overlaps the spot" is defined by the shadow of a ball placed on the spot, meaning a ball more than an inch forward of the line could be ineligible to shoot from behind the line. bizarre.

so if the chart which clarifies the rules above instead conflicts with them, which takes precedence?

Cheat sheets promulgated by the same entity that promulgates the rules are meant to make things easier to understand and I think they are used to interpret and explain the rules, so I think the chart and definition would have to control.

I think it depends upon how we define a ball that is "on the head spot".

If we say that if it is on the head spot, then it is on the head string, then the cue ball would go behind the head string.

However, if we say that a ball on the head string is by definition, a ball that is interfering with spotting a ball on the head spot, then the cue ball would go on the middle spot.

There is a certain harmony to the solution if we view it this way. After all, we do know that if it were the other way around, i.e. the object ball in the rack and the cue ball on the head spot, there would be no question but that the object ball goes to the center spot.

Plus to believe otherwise, we would have to think that all of the people that have taken the time to read the rules and to carry around the chart with them in order to properly know how to rack the balls, have been misled by the WPA.

I believe that Bob Jewett should weigh in as he is part of the panel that promulgated the rules. If I am wrong, I want to be corrected so that I do not spread the wrong information around.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Cheat sheets promulgated by the same entity that promulgates the rules are meant to make things easier to understand and I think they are used to interpret and explain the rules, so I think the chart and definition would have to control...

OK, say you are at the pool hall and have the chart for reference but no text of the rules.

So you look down the column that says CB in the rack and the first remedy that you come to that fits your situation is "Below the head string and not in the rack" which prescribes the solution of the CB in the kitchen and 15th ball in position. You never get to the last situation on the chart that calls for the CB on the center spot because you've already found the the item on the chart that covers your situation.

Now, if the OB is interfering with the head spot and IS in the kitchen, when you get to the 2nd item on the chart under the CB in the rack column, it says OB "behind the head string and not on the head spot" you know the OB is interfering so you keep reading until you come across that last situation that calls for center spot placement.

So it seems to me in a way the chart agrees with the text if you look at the remedies in the order they are listed. When you find your situation you apply that remedy.

 

[Bob Jewett]

OK, say you are at the pool hall and have the chart for reference but no text of the rules.

So you look down the column that says CB in the rack and the first remedy that you come to that fits your situation is "Below the head string and not in the rack" which prescribes the solution of the CB in the kitchen and 15th ball in position. You never get to the last situation on the chart that calls for the CB on the center spot because you've already found the the item on the chart that covers your situation.

Now, if the OB is interfering with the head spot and IS in the kitchen, when you get to the 2nd item on the chart under the CB in the rack column, it says OB "behind the head string and not on the head spot" you know the OB is interfering so you keep reading until you come across that last situation that calls for center spot placement.

So it seems to me in a way the chart agrees with the text if you look at the remedies in the order they are listed. When you find your situation you apply that remedy.

Well, the chart should not require that much analysis. The text version is right and the chart needs to be reworded for either clarity or correctness depending on which order you read it in.

 

[dmgwalsh]

Well, the chart should not require that much analysis. The text version is right and the chart needs to be reworded for either clarity or correctness depending on which order you read it in.

Bob has spoken and it must be true. I stand corrected.

If the cue ball is in the rack and the object ball is dead on the head spot, then the object ball is considered on the head string and the cue ball goes in the kitchen.

If it is a millimiter above being dead on the spot, it is now not on the head string but is considered above the head string, but since the cue ball cannot be spotted on the head spot, it goes to the center spot.

If it is a millimeter below being dead on the spot, it is again below the head string and therefore the cue ball goes in the kitchen.

Contrast this with the opposite situation. If it is the 15th ball in the rack and the cue ball hovering near the head spot. In all three situations, the 15th ball goes to the center spot.

I cannot believe the committee came up with such an inelegant and asymetrical set of rules, but what do I know.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I cannot believe the committee came up with such an inelegant and asymmetrical set of rules, but what do I know.

I don't believe it either because they didn't. The 14.1 rules were written a long time ago and I don't think this part was changed in 2006-2007.

As for your criticism of the rule, I don't agree with it. If the object ball is on or over the line, and the cue ball is in the rack, cue ball in hand is the reasonable choice regardless of exactly where the object ball is relative to the spot.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Well, the chart should not require that much analysis. The text version is right and the chart needs to be reworded for either clarity or correctness depending on which order you read it in.

I guess they just need to add "Behind the head string and..." in the lower left box to the beginning of the words "on the head spot".

 

[dmgwalsh]

Bob has spoken and it must be true. I stand corrected.

If the cue ball is in the rack and the object ball is dead on the head spot, then the object ball is considered on the head string and the cue ball goes in the kitchen.

If it is a millimiter above being dead on the spot, it is now not on the head string but is considered above the head string, but since the cue ball cannot be spotted on the head spot, it goes to the center spot.

If it is a millimeter below being dead on the spot, it is again below the head string and therefore the cue ball goes in the kitchen.

Contrast this with the opposite situation. If it is the 15th ball in the rack and the cue ball hovering near the head spot. In all three situations, the 15th ball goes to the center spot.

I cannot believe the committee came up with such an inelegant and asymetrical set of rules, but what do I know.

I don't believe it either because they didn't. The 14.1 rules were written a long time ago and I don't think this part was changed in 2006-2007.

As for your criticism of the rule, I don't agree with it. If the object ball is on or over the line, and the cue ball is in the rack, cue ball in hand is the reasonable choice regardless of exactly where the object ball is relative to the spot.

I did not mean you personally, Bob. Nor did I mean the grouop who rewrote the rules 5 or so years ago. I meant whoever came up with the rule as interpreted here.

But so be it.

When people ask at league, if it comes up, I will no longer be leading them astray.

 

[Bavafongoul]

14.1 rules specify what to do in these situations......read below.


Rule 4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.

(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.

(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.

(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.

(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

A more common problem is when the shooter scratches and 13 object balls are pocketed and the two remaining object balls are both in the kitchen. The object ball closest to the head rail gets spotted. The new shooter can either shoot at the object ball on the spot from the kitchen with ball in hand or as long as the cue ball touches the rail beyond the kitchen head string, it's legal to shoot at the remaining object ball still in the kitchen. At any time with ball in hand, the shooter can shoot directly at any ball in the kitchen as long as the cue ball touches a rail or object ball that's beyond the head string line.

 

[AtLarge]

... A more common problem is when the shooter scratches and 13 object balls are pocketed and the two remaining object balls are both in the kitchen. The object ball closest to the head rail gets spotted. ...

No, you spot the ball closest to the head string, not the one closest to the head rail.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

A more common problem is when the shooter scratches and 13 object balls are pocketed and the two remaining object balls are both in the kitchen. The object ball closest to the head rail gets spotted.

No, you spot the ball closest to the head string, not the one closest to the head rail.

Correct. Closest to the head string.

At any time with ball in hand, the shooter can shoot directly at any ball in the kitchen as long as the cue ball touches a rail or object ball that's beyond the head string line.

Not really. It's kind of important to add "as long as the cue ball touches a rail or object ball that's beyond the head string line first." So really, he can't shoot at the ball in the kitchen directly, but must first hit a rail or object ball beyond the head string. In essence you are playing a kick, carom ,or combo at the OB in the kitchen and not shooting at the ball directly.