Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[CJ Wiley]

One Pocket is a great game, no doubt, although it's much more ..........

It would take a top two shot roll out player and one who is also a top one pocket player to be able to answer which is the toughest game. Unless you know both games at a high level you are not qualified to answer with anything but a opinion. There are people I could beat playing two shot that I lost too or had a much tougher time playing 1 shot. I, like CJ, never played one pocket until the last few years. I thought it was a game for the older players who could no longer run out playing 9 ball. Since I have been trying to learn one pocket, there are so many moves, one couldn't learn them in a life time. This is the reason I disagree with CJ, because even though I haven't played one pocket long, I can already see it is the toughest pool game I've ever played. Since I'm not a top player in either game, I'm not qualified to answer with anything but my opinion.

One Pocket is a great game, no doubt, although it's much more mentally difficult than physically challenging.....and since we can't measure "mental difficulty" effectively we must concentrate on the physical.

What we've learned from our studies is more one pocket shots are relatively easy to execute physically relative to the 12 measurements set forth earlier: SEE THE FOLLOWING:

{ALL RATINGS ARE DONE ON A "1" to "10" SCALE}
ONE POCKET VS TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT 9 BALL
1) Difficulty of Shot Making - ONE POCKET "4" - SHOOT OUT "6"
2) Difficulty of Cue Ball Position (by length and precision) - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
3) Percentage of difficult shots to routine shots (routine pertains to speed, spin and angle) - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
4) Required level of stroking power and precision - ONE POCKET "4" SHOOT OUT "5"
5) Average difficulty level for shots pocketed - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
6) Average difficulty level for safeties executed - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
7) Average difficulty level for Bank Shots - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "5"
8) Average speed of shots required - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
9) Average level of English required on all shots - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "3"
10) Average distance of follow and draw shots required - ONE P. "3" SHOOT O. "5"
11) Average shot length - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
12) Average length of draw and follow shots required - ONE POCKET "4" SHOOT O. "4"
TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT WINS BY +12

 

[CJ Wiley]

.nice try, but it will cost you a ball.

You are way off..I have it, 1P WINS BY +19 (probably a conservative figure) :thumbup:

PS..See posts #631 and Matt's last paragraph, (that Jay is quoting)

Please don't simply change the test parameters.....nice try, but it will cost you a ball. :groucho:

 

[SJDinPHX]

It would take a top two shot roll out player and one who is also a top one pocket player to be able to answer which is the toughest game.......... Since I have been trying to learn one pocket, there are so many moves, one couldn't learn them in a life time. This is the reason I disagree with CJ, because even though I haven't played one pocket long, I can already see it is the toughest pool game I've ever played. Since I'm not a top player in either game, I'm not qualified to answer with anything but my opinion.

Very well stated BP !..Here is my response to a PM I rec'd recently, from a gentleman, strongly contesting my/our logic !

"So I guess you are saying sir, you agree with CJ ?..Are you aware you are up against the formidable concensus of MANY top pro's, who have played BOTH GAMES, A LOT !... This would include such names as the late Grady Matthews, Billy Incardona, Buddy Hall, Scott Frost, Nick Varner, Jay Helfert, Alex P., Efren, Busty, Parica, (and many more, including myself, a 'Beard', and a 'Ghost' )...They will maintain, that it is not even close enough to warrant a discussion, much less a debate !"

I went on to say, (as you pointed out) "Only someone who has played both games, at a very high level, is qualified to even comment on it. I cannot believe CJ is being so obstinate !..I think he actually realizes he is wrong, but he is in too deep to back down now ! :embarrassed2:....Take care, and don't make any foolish wagers !"

Dick

PS..I think we may be arguing apples and oranges anyway !...The harder, trickier shots, in ANY pool game, can be hard to master !... I think CJ is insisting, that these shots come up MORE in '2 shot 9 ball', then they do in 'One Pocket'..This is simply not true !..The emphasis on pin point cue ball control, banking skills, speed control, and the strategy inherent in the game of One Pocket, make it by far the toughest game to master of ALL the disciplines !.. This can only lead to one reasonable, logical conclusion....

And that is, regarding this issue... MR. CARSON J. WILEY, IS FULL OF BEANS !!! :thumbup:

LATE EDIT..I see while I was typing this post (at my usual, blinding 3 WPM speed).. Mr. Wiley, ignored the findings of MY test, and snuck in another post, or two, DRASTICALLY softening his rhetoric !..Not nice Mr Wiley !...I may have to send in the troops !!!

 

[HawaiianEye]

If one pocket is so much harder than 2F9B, then how come the top one-pocket champions seldom win a 9-ball tournament, yet quite a few 9-ball players win at one pocket?

 

[CJ Wiley]

please, in the spirit of honest debate, don't make up your own quotes and facts.

Very well stated BP !..Here is my response to a PM I rec'd recently, from a gentleman, strongly contesting my/our logic !

"So I guess you are saying sir, you agree with CJ ?..Are you aware you are up against the formidable consensus of MANY top pro's, who have played BOTH GAMES, A LOT !... This would include such names as the late Grady Matthews, Billy Incardona, Buddy Hall, Scott Frost, Nick Varner, Jay Helfert, Alex P., Efren, Busty, Parica, (and many more
Dick

PS..I think we may be arguing apples and oranges anyway !...The harder, trickier shots, in ANY pool game, can be hard to master !... I think CJ is insisting, that these shots come up MORE in '2 shot 9 ball', then they do in 'One Pocket'..This is simply not true !..The emphasis on pin point cue ball control, banking skills, speed control, and the strategy inherent in the game of One Pocket, make it by far the toughest game to master of ALL the disciplines !.. This can only lead to one reasonable, logical conclusion....

And that is, regarding this issue... MR. CARSON J. WILEY, IS FULL OF BEANS !!! :thumbup:

LATE EDIT..I see while I was typing this post (at my usual, blinding 3 WPM speed).. Mr. Wiley, ignored the findings of MY test, and snuck in another post, or two, DRASTICALLY softening his rhetoric !..Not nice Mr Wiley !...I may have to send in the troops !!!

View attachment 299357

Efren, Jose, Buste, Nick Varner, and Buddy Hall have NEVER said such a thing. You are entitled to your own opinion, but please, in the spirit of honest debate, don't make up your own quotes and facts.

I understand you're adamant about your opinion, but it's only your opinion and a few others that aren't even on your list (except for Jay of course). I know Efren even likes Balkline Billiards more than one pocket and that's been quoted from him in reputable billiard publications.

One pocket is a great game, much like Chess....but you can ask Stan that even checkers is as difficult as chess in ways. I'm not insulting your sacred game of one pocket, I'm just saying it's not as physically demanding and challenging as 'Two Shot Shoot Out' can be at the highest level.

We can agree to disagree until we decide on how to prove this once and for all.

'The Games are the Teacher'

HOW DID YOU KNOW ABOUT MY "FULL OF BEANS"? CLICK PICTURE FOR MORE

 

[JB Cases]

If one pocket is so much harder than 2F9B, then how come the top one-pocket champions seldom win a 9-ball tournament, yet quite a few 9-ball players win at one pocket?

I think that this is also a valid argument. For example Shane won the AccuStats Make It Happen One Pocket event on a ten foot Diamond against Efren, Scott Frost, Bustamante, Corey Deuel and Shannon Daulton.

Arguably Shane was the most inexperienced one pocket player in that group.

I guess the real ACID test is will the best one pocket player beat the best 9 ball player at nine ball? If one pocket is harder then he should always win the easier game or at least win the majority of the time.

Again, I think two different games, each with it's own set of nuances that make them both interesting.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'll set up matches on a 10' table and play all of them that will play

I think that this is also a valid argument. For example Shane won the AccuStats Make It Happen One Pocket event on a ten foot Diamond against Efren, Scott Frost, Bustamante, Corey Deuel and Shannon Daulton.

Arguably Shane was the most inexperienced one pocket player in that group.

I guess the real ACID test is will the best one pocket player beat the best 9 ball player at nine ball? If one pocket is harder then he should always win the easier game or at least win the majority of the time.

Again, I think two different games, each with it's own set of nuances that make them both interesting.

That's right, the 10' table really proves the point because of the added difficulty of the table. If someone makes a list of the top 10 one pocket players in this country I'll set up matches on a 10' table and play all of them that will play One Pocket in the next 3 months......I just happen to know of a 10' table that is being shipped to Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas in the next 3 weeks.......does that sound fair?

We'll pay the players expenses and a generous amount if they win and at least $500. if they don't happen to beat this "full of beans" "over the hill" pool player. I believe everyone will be in for a HUGE SURPRISE......'My Game WIll Be the Teacher'

PS: When you live and eat regularly in Texas you are bound to be "full of beans" at one time or another. Best Regards to all and again, thanks for all the Happy Birthday Wishes on AZ BILLIARDS and FACE BOOK......'The Game will always be our Teacher' - ALOHA

 

[SJDinPHX]

Efren, Jose, Buste, Nick Varner, and Buddy Hall have NEVER said such a thing. You are entitled to your own opinion, but please, in the spirit of honest debate, don't make up your own quotes and facts.

'The Games are the Teacher'

Do you think I just pulled a bunch of respected player's names out of thin air ?..That is a borderline insult Mr Wiley...
Boy, you do go down swinging, don't you ?...Next you'll be wanting to play me some head-up Karate !..

Do you think I have not had private conversations, or may be quoting something I read, that they said !..I notice you side-stepped quite a few BIG names there (Grady, Billy I. and Parica)...Are we going to have to prove our individual findings, in a court of law ?
...Sheeeeeeeeesh !

PS..Have your people, contact my people !...I just may allow you to settle, out of court ! (for an undisclosed sum)

I'm wore out, I need a nap now ! (and, I may take you to court, for causing my new 'carpul tunnel' issue) !

 

[JB Cases]

Whether or not Chris and CJ ever play the verbal match up between SJD and CJ is definitely entertaining.

Makes me want to go practice some two foul nine ball.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I think that this is also a valid argument. For example Shane won the AccuStats Make It Happen One Pocket event on a ten foot Diamond against Efren, Scott Frost, Bustamante, Corey Deuel and Shannon Daulton.

Arguably Shane was the most inexperienced one pocket player in that group.

I guess the real ACID test is will the best one pocket player beat the best 9 ball player at nine ball? If one pocket is harder then he should always win the easier game or at least win the majority of the time.

Again, I think two different games, each with it's own set of nuances that make them both interesting.

Oh Lordy, look who has joined the fray..John, you usually make sense, but you are almost incoherent, in your off the wall comparison's NONE of which has any bearing on CJ and I's dispute....Especially your 'acid test' remark..absolutely makes NO sense at all ? Are you off your med's today ?

I see you've also introduced the '10 footer' into the equation !..You've got CJ all excited now !...He is fortunate its not 1970, or I might own me a night club/pool room, in Texas !...'Cuz ya see, NO ONE played one pocket, any better than moi did, on the big track, and that included Mr Allen !..Its a matter of record, I was undefeated in Cochran's, on the 'biggie's'...But alas, I digress !

Night All,

 

[CJ Wiley]

.I don't even believe the "haters" will argue with me about that fact.

Oh Lordy, look who has joined the fray..John, you usually make sense, but you are almost incoherent, in your off the wall comparison's NONE of which has any bearing on CJ and I's dispute....Especially your 'acid test' remark..absolutely makes NO sense at all ? Are you off your med's today ?

I see you've also introduced the '10 footer' into the equation !..You've got CJ all excited now !...He is fortunate its not 1970, or I might own me a night club/pool room, in Texas !...'Cuz ya see, NO ONE played one pocket, any better than moi did, on the big track, and that included Mr Allen !..Its a matter of record, I was undefeated in Cochran's, on the 'biggie's'...But alas, I digress !

Night All,

I'll DEFINITELY PLAY you One Pocket on a 10' table....you better put your seat belt on before you get on that ride....There's no question the 10' Table is more challenging then the 9' table.....or do you want to argue that point as well?

I must admit that One Pocket on a 10' Table is FAR MORE CHALLENGING than One Pocket on a 9' Table.....I don't even believe the "haters" will argue with me about that fact......and of course 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is more difficult on the "Large Track" as well. 'The Big Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

The action will be increasing soon.....very, very, soon. 'The Game is the Teacher

Do you think I just pulled a bunch of respected player's names out of thin air ?..That is a borderline insult Mr Wiley...
Boy, you do go down swinging, don't you ?...Next you'll be wanting to play me some head-up Karate !..

Do you think I have not had private conversations, or may be quoting something I read, that they said !..I notice you side-stepped quite a few BIG names there (Grady, Billy I. and Parica)...Are we going to have to prove our individual findings, in a court of law ?
...Sheeeeeeeeesh !

PS..Have your people, contact my people !...I just may allow you to settle, out of court ! (for an undisclosed sum)

I'm wore out, I need a nap now ! (and, I may take you to court, for causing my new 'carpul tunnel' issue) !

Last time I checked 'Jose' was "Parica"......Grady's passed, and Billy doesn't like 'Two Shot Shoot Out' because of Doug Smith, so they really can't be counted.

I'll debate it with the rest of them though, but I like the 10' Challenge, I'll play the TOP 10 One Pocket Players in the USA within the next 3 months in Ft. Worth Texas on the 10' Table that will be set up in the near future.

WE WILL BE STREAMING THIS 10' Table action and play 'Two Shot Shoot Out' as well with many different top rated players. The action will be increasing soon.....very, very, soon. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[HawaiianEye]

JDinPHX: He is fortunate its not 1970, or I might own me a night club/pool room, in Texas !...'Cuz ya see, NO ONE played one pocket, any better than moi did, on the big track, and that included Mr Allen !..Its a matter of record, I was undefeated in Cochran's,

With all your expertise, knowledge, skill, and moves, do you think you could "coach" a top young gun, straight shooter into beating CJ in one-pocket on a 10-foot now if you can't play him yourself?

 

[backplaying]

If one pocket is so much harder than 2F9B, then how come the top one-pocket champions seldom win a 9-ball tournament, yet quite a few 9-ball players win at one pocket?

If the one pocket player shot as straight as the 9 ball players you would see why!

 

[backplaying]

Last time I checked 'Jose' was "Parica"......Grady's passed, and Billy doesn't like 'Two Shot Shoot Out' because of Doug Smith, so they really can't be counted.

I'll debate it with the rest of them though, but I like the 10' Challenge, I'll play the TOP 10 One Pocket Players in the USA within the next 3 months in Ft. Worth Texas on the 10' Table that will be set up in the near future.

WE WILL BE STREAMING THIS 10' Table action and play 'Two Shot Shoot Out' as well with many different top rated players. The action will be increasing soon.....very, very, soon. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Now you are talking!!!!!

 

[backplaying]

I'll DEFINITELY PLAY you One Pocket on a 10' table....you better put your seat belt on before you get on that ride....There's no question the 10' Table is more challenging then the 9' table.....or do you want to argue that point as well?

I must admit that One Pocket on a 10' Table is FAR MORE CHALLENGING than One Pocket on a 9' Table.....I don't even believe the "haters" will argue with me about that fact......and of course 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is more difficult on the "Large Track" as well. 'The Big Game is the Teacher'

You are talking about completely different games, when talking about a 9 footer and a 10 footer!

 

[backplaying]

It is just a game at the end of the day, and it's supposed to be fun after all. I know we've had a lot of fun playing and gambling through the years. I hope everything's doing well in Alabama, is the pool room still open or did they relocate?

It was funny walking in there with 'The Gypsy' that night, and seeing the guy I had given the 8/Break to years ago.....we played forever it seemed like, I was sore the next day from racking so much.

Ricky moved his place out of town on 72 since you was there. I have to admit , that Gypsy, you came in with, has at times in the past, brought out the bad side of me. I guess there was something about someone who convinced so many, he was a real player, even though we know better, and could never get him to play, and still talks the game around those who knows better, makes you wonder if he really believes it himself.

 

[JB Cases]

Oh Lordy, look who has joined the fray..John, you usually make sense, but you are almost incoherent, in your off the wall comparison's NONE of which has any bearing on CJ and I's dispute....Especially your 'acid test' remark..absolutely makes NO sense at all ? Are you off your med's today ?

I see you've also introduced the '10 footer' into the equation !..You've got CJ all excited now !...He is fortunate its not 1970, or I might own me a night club/pool room, in Texas !...'Cuz ya see, NO ONE played one pocket, any better than moi did, on the big track, and that included Mr Allen !..Its a matter of record, I was undefeated in Cochran's, on the 'biggie's'...But alas, I digress !

Night All,

Well if the best nine ball player back in the 80s at 2 foul 9 ball played the best one pocket player at 9 ball who would win the majority of the sets?

I mean if you really want to compare the two games then the best one pocket player SHOULD be able to do everything the nine ball player can and more and thus win more sets in nine ball right?

I just got home from a one pocket session. I played the guy nine ball and lost most of the games. Played him one hole and won most of the games. I just taught him the game. He figured out the moves pretty quickly and I predict after a few sessions he will know enough to give me a really tough game. I still won't be able to beat him playing nine ball.

I mean I love one pocket. I really do. And I do think it's a tough game. I just don't know that it's actually tougher than nine ball though when I think about it. As I said earlier in one pocket you have a lot of options most of the time. But in nine ball your options are really limited because you are dealing with one ball that you must hit.

And not only must you hit it you have to be extremely accurate. In one pocket it is often good enough if you just get the cue ball or object ball into a quarter of the table. In other words the target zone is often huge. More often than nine ball I think. That said there are of course times when you have to be extremely accurate in one pocket like making tickies and nestling in behind balls. Same as nine ball there too.

I don't know, honestly it's too close for me to call. Before this thread I probably would have said no question one pocket is tougher. Maybe it's tougher to learn because of all the available moves but tougher to play? I don't know. I think it's real close at best and at worst 9 ball is the tougher game to play because those who play exclusively one pocket can't seem to win in rotation games against those who specialize in rotation games. But the rotation game players seem to be able to step into the one pocket world and win.

I will take the correction now thank you.

 

[prewarhero]

CJ, Re: you playing a list of top 10- correct me I I'm wrong but wouldn't Shane need to give you a huge spot on any table for any game?

 

[CJ Wiley]

On the list of the top 10 I would think Shane would be on it,

CJ, Re: you playing a list of top 10- correct me I I'm wrong but wouldn't Shane need to give you a huge spot on any table for any game?

Earl has beaten Shane playing even on a 10' table and Earl and I play very close.....so do I need a "huge" spot? If Shane gave me anything on a 10' table playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' I'd probably have the advantage.

With that being said, I still have to start playing more against tougher opponents. There's really no one around Dallas/Ft. Worth to play seriously with although I may start playing One Pocket with Joey Barns.....we played the other night and he won two games over the course of the night, and that's the first time I've played since "Lil John" ( I won 12 games).

Once I open a pool room this whole scenario will change and there will be a reason to play every day again. To win against players in the top echelon it does take dedication, and I'm certainly no exception. The only time I went to the Derby City Classic the only one I gambled with was Shane.

We played 9 Ball (One Foul Rules) for $200. a game in the "center" and $300. a game on the side (Shannon Dalton, and some others were betting on me and I had part of it)......Shane got me 8 games loser, then I made a turn around and got even and he quit....I'm not sure why he quit, but that's the facts of the matter.

I'm not saying I can beat him, but on that particular night I am pretty sure I would have if he would have kept playing. He quit me and played Gabe Owen a set for $2500. and I left without finding out what happened, it was none of my business. 'The Game is the Teacher'

On the list of the top 10 I would think Shane would be on it, however, he may not be able to come play me because of his obligations to "other" streaming video producers.....I don't know, this remains to be seen. I will certainly play him if he's on the list of participants.