Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

CJ Wiley said:
I''m still waiting for any takers to publicly debate the One Pocket vs 'Two Shot Shoot Out 9 Ball to see which is the most difficult......if anyone's forgotten, here the criteria set forth. I will do a video presentation of my position, and I am willing to put my money up to prove this point against anyone that wants to do a video presentation of One Pocket....the time limit is 15 minutes to make your case on the table demonstrating and explaining in any way you choose to make your points.
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I cannot believe that you haven't conceded your chances of winning this unwinable argument !..You seem so intelligent, in other aspects of your life, it is hard to believe, despite overwhelming opinion to the contrary, that you still cling to your misguided, hare-brained belief's on this one issue ! (are you sure you're not the $$$$$$$$$$, and the brains behind Bonus Ball ?)

OK..I will play your silly game, as soon as I wake up later !..(I have been up for 4 days)....But I won't be able to furnish the required video, as my camcorder is in the Pawn Shop..(I ran out of Yukon Jack !)...If someone can loan me one, I will only need about 1 or 2 minutes, to de-bunk ANYTHING you could come up with, in 12 hrs. :rolleyes:

Later,

SJD

PS..NO creative editing on your audio/video presentation !...That would be like 'stealing balls', wouldn't it ?..(your words).. Also, using 'TOI' in your demo, may be considered a form of cheating !
 
CJ Wiley said:
I understand your need to criticize [SIZE="2"[SIZE="3"]]one[[/SIZE]/SIZE] post production edit in a 90 minute video, it's RIGHT......and the fact is "HONESTY SELLS" (no one's arguing with this advice) and maybe we can all learn to EDIT our own work. ;)

EVEN ESPN EDITS TV SHOWS - WE WILL SOON BE BACK ON ESPN or FOX SPORTS - CLICK HERE TO SEE ESPN POOL ON TV
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Lets leave it alone.;) Your good for pool, so be good to the people who play the Game,It is the teacher .

Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom.

Anthony
 
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There's no such thing as a "unwinnable" argument

SJDinPHX said:
I cannot believe that you haven't conceded your chances of winning this unwinable argument !..You seem so intelligent, in other aspects of your life, it is hard to believe, despite overwhelming opinion to the contrary, that you still cling to your misguided, hare-brained belief's on this one issue ! (are you sure you're not the $$$$$$$$$$, and the brains behind Bonus Ball ?)

OK..I will play your silly game, as soon as I wake up later !..(I have been up for 4 days)....But I won't be able to furnish the required video, as my camcorder is in the Pawn Shop..(I ran out of Yukon Jack !)...If someone can loan me one, I will only need about 1 or 2 minutes, to de-bunk ANYTHING you could come up with, in 12 hrs. :rolleyes:

Later,

SJD

PS..NO creative editing on your audio/video presentation !...That would be like 'stealing balls', wouldn't it ?..(your words).. Also, using 'TOI' in your demo, may be considered a form of cheating !
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There's no such thing as a "unwinnable" argument, actually I have the nutz.....there's some factors you are not taking into account, but that's cool, I wouldn't expect you to.

Let's open a one flavored sno cone stand together, it will be incredibly successful.

Here's another video that is sure to make your day, SJD :D

 
It's like saying advertising is cheating to get more business.

8pack said:
Lets leave it alone.;) Your good for pool, so be good to the people who play the Game,It is the teacher .

Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom.

Anthony
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Trying to take the position that editing is dishonest is pretty silly. I know you want to look cool in front of the other "CJ haters," but you should really pick another subject to try to chastise me about. It's like saying advertising is cheating to get more business.....or marketing is a dishonest way to get more customers.

Post production editing is done in every sport, game, movie, TV Show, and it really shows professionalism because it makes a cleaner, more presentable show.



A little history in editing;

In 1918, Russian director Lev Kuleshov did an experiment he took a clip of a head shot of a noted Russian actor and intercut the shot with a shot of a bowl of soup, then with a child playing with a teddy bear, then with a shot an elderly woman in a casket.

When he showed the film to people they praised the actor’s acting—the hunger in his face when he saw the soup, the delight in the child, and the grief when looking at the dead woman.

Of course, the shot of the actor was years before the other shots and he never “saw” any of the items. The simple act of juxtaposing the shots in a sequence made the relationship.
 
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SJDinPHX said:
"Light travels faster then sound, that's why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak."..........Why do people from the "Midwest" (aka, the 'Rust Belt') subscribe to sig lines, if they can't even grasp their meaning ? :confused: However, I do see you are pretty savvy politically ! :thumbup:

PS....Let me guess,..You repair clocks or watches for a living...and you bowl every Tues. and Thurs., leaving Wed. night free for your pool league, on which you received a trophy for, "Most improved APA 3" (am I close ?) :sorry:
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Well...like most things you say...you are partially correct. ;)

I do repair clocks. Just as a hobby. Not some much watches though. Eyes just aren't what they used to be.

Don't bowl. Don't play league anymore. Had to take a second shift job for the insurance. You know, good health is the slowest possible rate that one can die.

Do play a little. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1990862&postcount=1. Not of your significance in honors, but I've done alright for myself.

Oh, by the way. My :rolleyes: at the end of my statement was sarcasm also!
 
klockdoc said:
Well...like most things you say...you are partially correct. ;)

I do repair clocks. Just as a hobby. Not some much watches though. Eyes just aren't what they used to be.

Don't bowl. Don't play league anymore. Had to take a second shift job for the insurance. You know, good health is the slowest possible rate that one can die.

Do play a little. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1990862&postcount=1. Not of your significance in honors, but I've done alright for myself.

Oh, by the way. My :rolleyes: at the end of my statement was sarcasm also!
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Good for you Klockdoc...Glad to see you prevailed !..I was not aware they had Senior Citizen tournaments in St Louis...
....Is Watchez the tournament director ?...Can I play, or are perfeshunil's barred !..I promise to play drunk !..
..Do they have any women in St. Louis, or shall I bring my own ?..All three are trained barmaid's ! :p

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SJDinPHX said:
Good for you Klockdoc...Glad to see you prevailed !..I was not aware they had Senior Citizen tournaments in St Louis...
....Is Watchez the tournament director ?...Can I play, or are perfeshunil's barred !..I promise to play drunk !..
..Do they have any women in St. Louis, or shall I bring my own ?..All three are trained barmaid's ! :p

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Yeah...come on down. :smile: Humitity might play havoc on you.

I watched a couple of video's of you playing, so you might want to stay sober to have a chance. :thumbup:

Perfeshunil's aren't barred. Do you know any?

No women here like those...bring them along!
 
It was funny walking in there with 'The Gypsy' that night,

backplaying said:
Somehow you missed the point, that I was spot on, that you would be on him on his first post. How could I have known that, if not for you're history? Talking about ego's, do you remember when you went back and deleted every post you made, because someone disagreed with you, or something, so, you took your ball and went home. You sir, have one of the biggest ego's I have ever seen, well just as big anyway. I really do believe you are delusional. What are you're credentials, as a superior instructor? Anyhow, I'm through with you, and hope you get better, and try not to take things so serious. Its just a game!;)
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It is just a game at the end of the day, and it's supposed to be fun after all. I know we've had a lot of fun playing and gambling through the years. I hope everything's doing well in Alabama, is the pool room still open or did they relocate?

It was funny walking in there with 'The Gypsy' that night, and seeing the guy I had given the 8/Break to years ago.....we played forever it seemed like, I was sore the next day from racking so much.
 
CJ Wiley said:
I''m still waiting for any takers to publicly debate the One Pocket vs 'Two Shot Shoot Out 9 Ball to see which is the most difficult......if anyone's forgotten, here the criteria set forth.
{ALL RATINGS ARE DONE ON A "1" to "10" SCALE}
ONE POCKET VS TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT 9 BALL
1) Difficulty of Shot Making - ONE POCKET "4" - SHOOT OUT "6"
2) Difficulty of Cue Ball Position (by length and precision) - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
3) Percentage of difficult shots to routine shots (routine pertains to speed, spin and angle) - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
4) Required level of stroking power and precision - ONE POCKET "4" SHOOT OUT "5"
5) Average difficulty level for shots pocketed - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
6) Average difficulty level for safeties executed - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"
7) Average difficulty level for Bank Shots - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "5"
8) Average speed of shots required - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
9) Average level of English required on all shots - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "3"
10) Average distance of follow and draw shots required - ONE P. "3" SHOOT O. "5"
11) Average shot length - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"
12) Average length of draw and follow shots required - ONE POCKET "4" SHOOT O. "4"
TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT WINS BY +12
I will do a 15 minute video presentation to prove these numbers with anyone in the world that wants to represent One Pocket.....with a fair panel of judges I'm willing to bet that TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT will prevail in a fair contest to establish difficulty levels.

I am willing to put my money up to prove this point against anyone that wants to do a video presentation of One Pocket....the time limit is 15 minutes to make your case on the table demonstrating and explaining in any way you choose to make your points.

Anyone that thinks One Pocket will clearly win is living in a fantasy land......I actually don't think it will be that close, as represented by the test above I believe I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is the most difficult game.

May the BEST GAME WIN.....'The Game is the Teacher'
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I guess you skipped over my last post in this thread, but the gist of it was that I take exception to the idea that one game is inherently more difficult than another because any competition is only as tough as your opponent. I'm pretty confident I can win a footrace against any 5 year old, but will never outrun Usain Bolt.

A showdown based on criteria you have arbitrarily selected and assigned meaningless ratings to is not a debate at all. Every "category" you have created is a subset of shot execution difficulty, and every rating is given completely without context or supporting data. It all boils down to your opinion that you take more difficult shots more often in 2 foul 9-ball than in one pocket, which I suspect many people would agree with without any argument anyways. Even then, it depends what their strengths are. Some people can fire balls in from across the table and draw back 2 rails for position more reliably than they can cross bank a ball at low speed and control the cue ball.

Even if you could somehow "prove" that one game is inherently more difficult than another, or a better test of a particular skill or set of skills, it doesn't make it a better game unless it is enjoyable, which is completely subjective. You seem to prefer 9-ball to one pocket; there's nothing wrong with that. I could make up a game that would blow away both one pocket and 9-ball based on your criteria, but it might be completely unplayable.

What I can take away from this all is that you have given up on the notion that 9-ball, even the 2 foul version, requires more strategy or critical thinking than one pocket and have decided that you would like to argue your preference for 9-ball based on average execution difficulty instead. Even if you win that argument, what is the point? Should everyone quit playing one pocket because it places more emphasis on strategy than consistent execution of "difficult" shots?
 
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CJ Wiley said:
Let's open a one flavored sno cone stand together, it will be incredibly successful.

Here's another video that is sure to make your day, SJD :D

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Well, now, another upbeat Bollywood ending. You should have edited your purported 29-ball run to add that to the end.

Most of the magic of film comes out during the edit. This is where unbelievable stories are made to look believable. Who knows? Maybe there's a ten-minute clip on your hard drive that shows Mary coming into the room, emptying ALL of the pockets, taking them to your Diamond ball polisher and then returning them all to the lower corner pockets. Now THAT would make sense.


In the meantime I am reminded of a quote by a great President:

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

Wise man. Then somebody went and killed him.


Almost a century later, another great President said this about propaganda:

“No matter how big the lie; repeat it often enough and the masses will regard it as the truth.”

Wise man. Then somebody went and killed him.


Almost another half a century passed and we got this from a President out of Texas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjmjqlOPd6A

Nobody bothered to kill him. Wonder why?
 
Matt said:
I guess you skipped over my last post in this thread, but the gist of it was that I take exception to the idea that one game is inherently more difficult than another because any competition is only as tough as your opponent. I'm pretty confident I can win a footrace against any 5 year old, but will never outrun Usain Bolt.

A showdown based on criteria you have arbitrarily selected and assigned meaningless ratings to is not a debate at all. Every "category" you have created is a subset of shot execution difficulty, and every rating is given completely without context or supporting data. It all boils down to your opinion that you take more difficult shots more often in 2 foul 9-ball than in one pocket, which I suspect many people would agree with without any argument anyways. Even then, it depends what their strengths are. Some people can fire balls in from across the table and draw back 2 rails for position more reliably than they can cross bank a ball at low speed and control the cue ball.

Even if you could somehow "prove" that one game is inherently more difficult than another, or a better test of a particular skill or set of skills, it doesn't make it a better game unless it is enjoyable, which is completely subjective. You seem to prefer 9-ball to one pocket; there's nothing wrong with that. I could make up a game that would blow away both one pocket and 9-ball based on your criteria, but it might be completely unplayable.

What I can take away from this all is that you have given up on the notion that 9-ball, even the 2 foul version, requires more strategy or critical thinking than one pocket and have decided that you would like to argue your preference for 9-ball based on average execution difficulty instead. Even if you win that argument, what is the point? Should everyone quit playing one pocket because it places more emphasis on strategy than consistent execution of "difficult" shots?
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Matt please stop trying to be logical! This is AZ after all! ;)
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Well, now, another upbeat Bollywood ending. You should have edited your purported 29-ball run to add that to the end.

Most of the magic of film comes out during the edit. This is where unbelievable stories are made to look believable. Who knows? Maybe there's a ten-minute clip on your hard drive that shows Mary coming into the room, emptying ALL of the pockets, taking them to your Diamond ball polisher and then returning them all to the lower corner pockets. Now THAT would make sense.


In the meantime I am reminded of a quote by a great President:

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

Wise man. Then somebody went and killed him.


Almost a century later, another great President said this about propaganda:

“No matter how big the lie; repeat it often enough and the masses will regard it as the truth.”

Wise man. Then somebody went and killed him.


Almost another half a century passed and we got this from a President out of Texas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjmjqlOPd6A

Nobody bothered to kill him. Wonder why?
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And now we have this! :killingme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws
 
CJ Wiley said:
I''m still waiting for any takers to publicly debate the One Pocket vs 'Two Shot Shoot Out 9 Ball to see which is the most difficult......if anyone's forgotten, here the criteria set forth.

OK--I will humor you, and take your silly test ! (see post #615, for other boring rules)

Questions..# 1, 2, 3, 4, Would be absolutely equal (ie; it would depend on the context of the shot, as it presents itself)

Q 5..Would greatly depend on playing GOOD/BAD shape !

Q 6..1P=10 9ball=3 (screw up a safety in 1P, you are toast--screw up a safety in 2shot 9ball, you may get 3 or 4 more tries !)

Q 7..1P=8 9ball=4 (and that's generous) There is an infinite amount of speed control, in one pocket banking--Only one, in 9ball--'WARP'

Q 8..Same answer as 1 thru 4

Q 9..You finally got one close to right ! :wink:

Q 10..1P=6 - 9ball=4. Distance of either one, much more critical in 1P !

Q 11..1P=5 - 9ball=5 You are forgetting, many 1P games, end up, 'up table' ! (lots of long, difficult banks, and safeties)

Q 12..1P=10 - 9ball=4 And they are MUCH more critical in 1P


{ALL RATINGS ARE DONE ON A "1" to "10" SCALE}
ONE POCKET VS TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT 9 BALL

1) Difficulty of Shot Making - ONE POCKET "4" - SHOOT OUT "6"

2) Difficulty of Cue Ball Position (by length and precision) - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"

3) Percentage of difficult shots to routine shots (routine pertains to speed, spin and angle) - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"

4) Required level of stroking power and precision - ONE POCKET "4" SHOOT OUT "5"

5) Average difficulty level for shots pocketed - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"

6) Average difficulty level for safeties executed - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "6"

7) Average difficulty level for Bank Shots - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "5"

8) Average speed of shots required - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"

9) Average level of English required on all shots - ONE POCKET "5" SHOOT OUT "3"

10) Average distance of follow and draw shots required - ONE P. "3" SHOOT O. "5"

11) Average shot length - ONE POCKET "3" SHOOT OUT "5"

12) Average length of draw and follow shots required - ONE POCKET "4" SHOOT O. "4"

TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT WINS BY +12 <--LOL--LMAOF--:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

I'm willing to bet that TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT will prevail in a fair contest to establish difficulty levels. I believe I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is the most difficult game.<--You will LOSE your cash !

May the BEST GAME WIN.....'The Game is the Teacher'
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You are way off..I have it, 1P WINS BY +19 (probably a conservative figure) :thumbup:

PS..See posts #631 and Matt's last paragraph, (that Jay is quoting)
 
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I like this quote by a great President.
There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again.
 
It would take a top two shot roll out player and one who is also a top one pocket player to be able to answer which is the toughest game. Unless you know both games at a high level you are not qualified to answer with anything but a opinion. There are people I could beat playing two shot that I lost too or had a much tougher time playing 1 shot. I, like CJ, never played one pocket until the last few years. I thought it was a game for the older players who could no longer run out playing 9 ball. Since I have been trying to learn one pocket, there are so many moves, one couldn't learn them in a life time. This is the reason I disagree with CJ, because even though I haven't played one pocket long, I can already see it is the toughest pool game I've ever played. Since I'm not a top player in either game, I'm not qualified to answer with anything but my opinion.
 
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