Pool Secrets NOT revealed...(has this ever happened to you?)
- Thread starter CurvedCue
- Start date
I was watching a recent CJ Wiley match and I noticed he gets up on nearly every shot, often times starting up well before the cue tip hits the CB. I thought this might be part of the reason why he is playing so poorly since his comeback. Then I found an old video on YouTube from CJ's mullet days, where he was matched up against Kim Davenport. Turns out that even back then he got up during his stroke most of the time. Davenport didn't, and he won the match, but I don't think it had anything to do with CJ moving during the stroke. In fact, both guys were playing jam up 9-ball, but there's only ever one winner. All I can say is CJ was a stone cold killer back then, even with his "flawed" mechanics.
Many other players incorporated large movements during many of their shots. Contrast Alex Higgins with Ronnie O. to see polar opposites in stroke style. Higgins would sometimes leap right up during his stroke and slam a hard cut in from 8' away. Ronnie is always like the proverbial statue unless he's showboating for the crowd.
Both Ismael Paez and Keith McCready had almost bizarre body movements during their strokes and they played pretty damn good. Here's a hill-hill game from a while ago that is definitely not one to watch for solid fundamentals, but Keith made a pretty nice out while flopping around the table like a fish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXECHvT86jw
Keith was a great natural player. I wish there was more of him to watch for all of us who missed him live back in his prime.
Sloppy are you suggesting players work to develop a jump up mid stroke in their game. Perhaps more of a jump and a twist if it is a high pressure key shot.
In reply the great players you name and they are all great played well in spite of their body movements. They hit more balls and played harder to overcome the issues and the OP can too just hit more balls and whatever you do make it consistent. Being still is easier for most player even though most are not still it is something to aspire to and I think a lot of misses are due to jumping up.
How is anyone going to sell a book or provide a paying pool lesson with all of this free information you're giving away?
JoeyA
I don't know Joey he said wanted to know the secret so I thought I would let him in cheap. He probably will not pay any attention to my post all the stuff I mentioned is after all fairly obvious so there must be some other secret than what I said so if he is a potential customer I am sure he will find a vendor of the "SECRET" whether he will buy it by the book, lesson or perhaps he will purchase his knowledge by the game as so many others have back in the good old days.
Sounds like awfully good advice to me. None of the other things you thought he might tell you would be of any value if you aren't keeping your head down. That is game changing advice that can take you up a ball or two right away if you didn't realize that you weren't keeping it down. Those things are usually magnified on harder shots, so you probably would have been very slow to progress with that bad habit. If I were you, I would go and thank him for the advice and tell you would welcome anything else he has to tell you.
Fantastic advice. But does that mean a longer, perceptible pause in the backswing is not also fine? I think of Buddy Hall and Stephen Hendry, two players I've emulated. That long pause is doing well for me lately, just wanted to know your thought on it!
There are quirks everywhere, especially in tremendously talented players, not sure if that kind of pause was discouraged in us mere mortals.
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To pause or not to pause that is the question.....
I would first tell you I am not a strong player nor an oracle.. With that being said what I say is not having any pause is bad for most players. Slight pause is fine, a longer pause is a also fine but if the pause becomes very long that might not be the best for some (they might jerk it forward / anticipation issue).
Now before the world jumps on me for suggesting no pause is bad let me explain my reasoning. A straight stroke back and forth is desired, If something is straight and goes back and forth it has to stop for at least a moment at each end no other way for it to happen. To illustrate this take a look at a crank on an engine and the piston in the cylinder. The piston is stopping for a moment at the top and the bottom the crank never stops. Most player who do not stop have a bit of a circle thing going on at the back of the stroke so they are doing the crank thing using their shoulder and elbow up/down or they are doing a circle left to right under the elbow with the grip at the back something is either going circular or the but never stops. The shaft where it touches the bridge will stop for at least a moment no matter who is stroking the cue.
The preparation phase of the stroke could be used to "simulate" the speed desired upon release phase (follow through), not necessarily though.
A pause is usually good for a final mental "check up" of the target, the whole aspect of Snooker making it a must in that game.
In pool if a player doesn't have it in his stroke since the early stages of his playing I think it's too time consuming trying to incorporate it afterwards, unless there is a lot of time to practice without leaving the other aspects of the game behind.
A pause is usually good for a final mental "check up" of the target, the whole aspect of Snooker making it a must in that game.
In pool if a player doesn't have it in his stroke since the early stages of his playing I think it's too time consuming trying to incorporate it afterwards, unless there is a lot of time to practice without leaving the other aspects of the game behind.
you'll see Shane also demonstrate this difference, the break he raises up completely
No, "raising" is a positive thing, (CLICK LINK FOR EXAMPLE) my poor play had to do with my weight which effected my stroke and balance. At our level you must be physically balanced to play at maximum potential, and I lose this ability when my weight gets over 200 pounds.
Efren does the same thing (the better he's playing the more you will see him raise, but not "jump" up on the shots), although we don't do it on every shot. It has to do with using the foundation of the lower body and creating the movement from the feet up.
There are shots, however, that you need to remain as still as possible, you'll see Shane also demonstrate this difference, on the break he raises up completely.
In golf they call this type movement at the beginning of the swing the "forward press," and when they reach the top of the swing the downswing begins from the feet up (it's more visible in the hips actually), not from the hands down. This is the difference between great swings and not so great swings, and pool is a miniature version of golf in more than just a few ways. 'The Games are the Teacher'
No, "raising" is a positive thing, (CLICK LINK FOR EXAMPLE) my poor play had to do with my weight which effected my stroke and balance. At our level you must be physically balanced to play at maximum potential, and I lose this ability when my weight gets over 200 pounds.
Efren does the same thing (the better he's playing the more you will see him raise, but not "jump" up on the shots), although we don't do it on every shot. It has to do with using the foundation of the lower body and creating the movement from the feet up.
There are shots, however, that you need to remain as still as possible, you'll see Shane also demonstrate this difference, on the break he raises up completely.
In golf they call this type movement at the beginning of the swing the "forward press," and when they reach the top of the swing the downswing begins from the feet up (it's more visible in the hips actually), not from the hands down. This is the difference between great swings and not so great swings, and pool is a miniature version of golf in more than just a few ways. 'The Games are the Teacher'
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I've seen that match in question before and never noticed CJ getting up. Probably because I was too busy in a daze looking at his mullet, and also there was a match going on! I'm going to go back and watch it and see if I can spot it.
On a side note; one thing I did notice was Kim D's stroke...it had an awfully big 'hook' to the left as he got to within 3 inches of the CB. At first I thought that's how he applied English by hooking his stroke, and he may do, but it was every shot from what I could see and I doubt he used English every shot.
see how many times they'll raise their head slightly up on shots
There's a big difference between "jumping up" and "raising up" on shots......jumping up is often associated with nerves and we've all done that before....yes, I do mean ALL, I've seen the greatest all around player in the world do it on several occasions.
Watch a match between Efren and someone playing 9 Ball and see how many times they'll raise their head slightly up on shots, it may be of some surprise. Once the head starts to raise it can continue with no influence on the shot because it's already been cued. CLICK THIS LINK FOR EXAMPLE
This is something that happens naturally, I would not recommend doing it on purpose.
There's a big difference between "jumping up" and "raising up" on shots......jumping up is often associated with nerves and we've all done that before....yes, I do mean ALL, I've seen the greatest all around player in the world do it on several occasions.
Watch a match between Efren and someone playing 9 Ball and see how many times they'll raise their head slightly up on shots, it may be of some surprise. Once the head starts to raise it can continue with no influence on the shot because it's already been cued. CLICK THIS LINK FOR EXAMPLE
This is something that happens naturally, I would not recommend doing it on purpose.
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Raising up is only an issue if the player raises up and moves his head left or right thereby pulling the eyes off the shot line.... Raising up is a natural motion for making clearance as needed for a big stroke or it can even be used to control cueball speed by releasing some energy upward and not down the cue.....
As long as you raise up on line and are not "jumping" up you may not be causing an issue... IF you are unaware of raising up then you really do have a problem as you won't take the measures required that have you dropping down online so that if you raise up you don't lose the shot or shot line or aim point........
Chris
As long as you raise up on line and are not "jumping" up you may not be causing an issue... IF you are unaware of raising up then you really do have a problem as you won't take the measures required that have you dropping down online so that if you raise up you don't lose the shot or shot line or aim point........
Chris
Hank Haney tried to get Tiger Woods to stop his head movement before contact
That's right, Chris, and back in the "old days" they used to tell golfers to "keep your head down," however now it's accepted that the advanced golfers all allow their head to follow their lower body and come up after impact and it moves slightly before as well.
Hank Haney tried to get Tiger Woods to stop his head movement before contact and was never successful. He describes this attempt in 'THE BIG MISS' and although it bothered Hank, he accepted that Tiger was still the best player in the world despite this slight "flaw".
That's right, Chris, and back in the "old days" they used to tell golfers to "keep your head down," however now it's accepted that the advanced golfers all allow their head to follow their lower body and come up after impact and it moves slightly before as well.
Hank Haney tried to get Tiger Woods to stop his head movement before contact and was never successful. He describes this attempt in 'THE BIG MISS' and although it bothered Hank, he accepted that Tiger was still the best player in the world despite this slight "flaw".
How is anyone going to sell a book or provide a paying pool lesson with all of this free information you're giving away?
JoeyA
Actually he is missing two of the most critical secrets, no worries, no one will be a pro following it.
Dont hold back Naji I could have added 10 more critical secrets myself I was just going through somethings that are part of any systematic improvement based on teaching and working to play better. I personally wish someone would have told me some of that back when I was a teenage kid playing my heart out trying to do it all on feel. A little bit of training early on would have been huge for my game.
Throw out your two secrets Naji if you want the world to play better. I know I want to play better and beat players that play well so I will always share my thoughts and understanding while trying to keep my mind open to new concepts.
OP/Curved Cue - you should post a video of yourself hitting some balls or shooting a rack or two. I would like to see your routine and your stroke. When you play and work on your game try to evaluate your self based on stroke quality and how you did on your focus and your process more than getting caught up in judging yourself as good or bad with ball pocketing being the threshhold. I personally would suggest you not get to caught up in hitting the CB at 8:45 or whatever and judging it like that. If you want to play well remember the best player is the guy who can consistently do the simple stuff and keep it simple. The best player is not the guy who is constantly making one hard shot after another. Good luck to you curved cue. You should consider yourself lucky as these days there is a lot of information available, lessons from some people who can bump your game up if you do the work in a short amount of time and then of course there is youtube, On youtube look at Mike Page and also of course Dr Dave's info. AccuStats so you can see alot of great matches.
As to what CJ said about a controlled lift or press forward. I have seen that in a controlled manner from some great players. I am not sure but I do not think that is what we are talking about in this tread with people telling a player not jump up or raise their head. The players I have seen had more of a slight motion forward into the shot as opposed to going up. Controlled kinetic energy could add alot to the shot and power into the CB., This game is amazing with what a player can do to control a shot when they are at a very high level. Thanks CJ for sharing that info.
Well here's another secret for you guys...
Something you said here struck me funny so I thought I'd throw out another pool secret.
There are NO EASY SHOTS....
None....
Every shot is a hard shot and will be missed with the simplest of errors.
Pulling up early...looking away from the shot... Swiping.... focusing solely on shape....
Any lapse of concentration can cause any shot to be missed.
One of the most difficult shots is a ball sitting right in front of a corner. Not because it's difficult to pocket but because almost every shot requires proper shape and because you can be off so horribly and still make the ball, the CB can end up miles away from where you intended without much effort.
Jaden
Something you said here struck me funny so I thought I'd throw out another pool secret.
There are NO EASY SHOTS....
None....
Every shot is a hard shot and will be missed with the simplest of errors.
Pulling up early...looking away from the shot... Swiping.... focusing solely on shape....
Any lapse of concentration can cause any shot to be missed.
One of the most difficult shots is a ball sitting right in front of a corner. Not because it's difficult to pocket but because almost every shot requires proper shape and because you can be off so horribly and still make the ball, the CB can end up miles away from where you intended without much effort.
Jaden
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I would not say "there are no easy shots", there are shots where less energy can be used maintaining focus at the same time, energy saving is essential for a good match performance, usually through good position play.
CurvedCue
Registered
I think I'm more a "raiser" actually.
I do understand that "jumping" is bad.
But whether raiser or jumper or floater, I think one has to take with a grain of salt what a strong money player told me after seeing me shoot for all of 90 seconds. Doubtless, I was nervous shooting in front of him; that combined with his taciturn nature probably resulted in what he said.
Anyway, this segues to my next post...heehee
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CurvedCue
Registered
Okay, here’s my satiric riff on this thread.
Caution: Creative license has been used to highlight the dramatic and far-out elements.
OP: I was super-excited this super-strong player was gonna give me advice! But all he said was: “Don’t chew gum and talk at the same time.”
Reply #1: You ungrateful little s**t!
Reply #2: Sounds like sound advice. Use it. Use it well.
Reply #4: Efren Reyes will occasionally chew gum, but will usually spit it out before a kick shot. I saw Earl The Pearl once put a huge wad of Juicy Fruit into his mouth before doing a Jump-Draw.
Reply #5: There is a whole methodology to chewing various varieties of gum. There are gnashers, munchers, slow grass-style chewers. Did he mention sugarfree? Xylitol (often find in Trident) will produce a synergistic effect when combined with an extremely strong follow through. Of course, this may only relate to three-cushion. Myself, I gave up chewing and talking years ago. I haven’t spoken a word in 20 years, but -- my god! – I can run racks all day on a 10-foot table using only my left foot. I happen to run a Don’t Chew/Don’t Talk Billiards School out of my garage. Gum, of course, is verboten. And you can only “talk” using facial gestures. It’s an intensive 28-weeks. Let me know when you can fly out to Croatia.
Reply #6: You shouldn’t even be concerned with chewing and talking at this stage. Just work on your fundamentals: swallowing and crawling.
Reply #7: I recall seeing old-time players chewing and talking all the time. Luther Lassiter would blow bubbles while cursing.
Reply #8: Yeah, but those old-time players were more precise about it. The OP is all over the map with it.
Reply #9: How do you know how the OP chews gum?
Reply #10: He’s a beginner. They all chew badly.
Reply #11: He needs to post a video of himself chewing and talking at the same time.
Reply #12: But how does he play pool?
Reply #13: Pool? What’s that?
OP: Um, nevermind.
C’mon! You gotta take a step back and have a laugh once in awhile. :groucho: You know I love you guys! :smile2:
Caution: Creative license has been used to highlight the dramatic and far-out elements.
OP: I was super-excited this super-strong player was gonna give me advice! But all he said was: “Don’t chew gum and talk at the same time.”
Reply #1: You ungrateful little s**t!
Reply #2: Sounds like sound advice. Use it. Use it well.
Reply #4: Efren Reyes will occasionally chew gum, but will usually spit it out before a kick shot. I saw Earl The Pearl once put a huge wad of Juicy Fruit into his mouth before doing a Jump-Draw.
Reply #5: There is a whole methodology to chewing various varieties of gum. There are gnashers, munchers, slow grass-style chewers. Did he mention sugarfree? Xylitol (often find in Trident) will produce a synergistic effect when combined with an extremely strong follow through. Of course, this may only relate to three-cushion. Myself, I gave up chewing and talking years ago. I haven’t spoken a word in 20 years, but -- my god! – I can run racks all day on a 10-foot table using only my left foot. I happen to run a Don’t Chew/Don’t Talk Billiards School out of my garage. Gum, of course, is verboten. And you can only “talk” using facial gestures. It’s an intensive 28-weeks. Let me know when you can fly out to Croatia.
Reply #6: You shouldn’t even be concerned with chewing and talking at this stage. Just work on your fundamentals: swallowing and crawling.
Reply #7: I recall seeing old-time players chewing and talking all the time. Luther Lassiter would blow bubbles while cursing.
Reply #8: Yeah, but those old-time players were more precise about it. The OP is all over the map with it.
Reply #9: How do you know how the OP chews gum?
Reply #10: He’s a beginner. They all chew badly.
Reply #11: He needs to post a video of himself chewing and talking at the same time.
Reply #12: But how does he play pool?
Reply #13: Pool? What’s that?
OP: Um, nevermind.
C’mon! You gotta take a step back and have a laugh once in awhile. :groucho: You know I love you guys! :smile2: